[Meatex]

V

This is the style of ZvZ that has garnered me a 95% win rate in ZvZ (bar one day recently where i just failed everything)
I'm 100% positive the certain elements will troll me but I have beaten masters players with this style despite being high plat myself.
Also this is derived from Machine's ZvZ just slightly evolved
Anyway lets begin
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** Before I describe the build and strategy involved here is a few points for various levels

1. Why you don't need to play the coin toss game
Many players think they need to play a rock-scissors-paper style of zvz where 2 base beats 1 base but early pool beats 2 base. Watch Idra vs Zenio (NASL) to see his epic 8 pool defense from a 15 hatch 16 pool ^^!!
The pro's tell you not to drone scout on the off chance that they do the same build as you minus the drone scout. But this mentality is for players that typically will know the style of their opponent or confident in having far superior control
This build/style is by far not a be all and end all but its fairly strong and safe - it has its risks which I will cover later

2. Get used to clicking
ZvZ will always be a MU centered around your finesse with your units, be they banelings or infestors. Don't be afraid to select individual banelings or use ctrl + click to select groups of units on the screen.

3. Scouting is paramount
ZvZ the you aren't scouting their tech buildings for the most part, you want to see their unit composition and most importantly drone saturation. If they make drones means you can make drones - or you know, go kill him if he made too many

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The opening

14 gas
14 pool
15 overlord
15 queen
Speed ASAP
17 3 sets of lings
20 banelings nest as soon as you have 50 gas (important)

*You can afford to drone scout if you must but best to avoid it

You might be think yeah i know that build its just standard banelings
What you might not know is that against common 1 base roach openings (normally seen as the counter to this) there is a timing where you can morph 5-6 banelings and have the opportunity to do some damage

Lets get into the strategy part and see where the strengths of this style lies

Your first 6 lings should have very aggressive rally (his ramp)
Separate 2 to go scout and check how well he sim citied and see what he's got or what he's got coming.

[will be adding pictures once i can make em an pretty em up]
1. He's going ling bling same as you. -> get your micro on. Might also want to morph 2 defensive banelings at your base.

2. Roaches -> you gotta make a judgement call, can you get banelings in or not.
-2.1. If he isn't going Day9 style over the top paranoid sim city you may have a chance to get in. Morph 5-6 banelings set up your hotkeys and use shift click to splits your banelings and make them come from both sides. Keep rallying lings and go for the kill or go to 2.2
-2.2. Cancel banelings nest unless you're worried about surprise lings. Take guys off gas, make a decent number of lings, expo, drone, roach warren. Keep the lings at his natural to deny expo for as long as possible, if he tries to move out with his roaches you can try to runby into the main or just fall back and transition into roach ling or roach infestor

3. Mass ling -> again defensive banelings then go kill him

4. infinity spine crawlers (haven't seen this since silver but here it is for you guys) -> MOAR queens, expo, spore at each base, roaches and banelings will bust through

5. He went hatch first -> get your game face on, Harrass the expo with lings. He will have ling number advantage but your speed will be done sooner. Morph banelings a little further back. Your target is the drones - don't waste all your first round of banes on the lings. Select individual banes to clear the lings if you can. Use your lings to keep individual enemy lings off your banelings. If you can't do enough damage or force cancel you are in quite a lot of trouble.

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Strengths and weaknesses

This style requires good control - all the while keeping very smooth macro - you can't do it you die.

You'll be morphing almost all your lings at his ramp so there is a timing when he can send lings down and clear most of your banelings. Though this delays his roaches slightly making the window for attack bigger. Your first 2 lings sent to scout should be able to see if he's spending larvae on lings or waiting for roaches.

It is fairly tough to transition out of, especially if you didn't do enough damage. The lings at his natural will keep him from moving out but he may attack in a window of vulnerability when you are trying to get your natural up. You can try making spines in the main and moving them down. Otherwise make sure you are peeking where you can with an ovie to see what units he has and if he's making lost of roaches you had better hurry with your own roaches. If you did enough damage it helps to transition especially into roach ling on 2 base - go in for the kill.

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Mid game

Yup that whole stream of text was for the early game - I will be trying to add pretty pictures to make it easier to read in the future though.

Mid game, and later, ZvZ comes down to knowing when to drone and when to make units. AND infestors. Scout as often as you need, every 2 inject cycles or a nicely positioned overlord to see his mineral line. He makes drones, so do you. Make drones when you harass. Losing even 8 lings for as little as 1 or 2 drones is worth it because you force units while you have made drones. You have enough time to make units should he try a counter.

If you make it past the roach ling all in timing roach infestor is most common. And if you got the gas roach hydra infestor is very nice. Don't forget upgrades and positioning is super important.

Mutas are a good harass unit later in the game but don't try rushing them as your primary unit as you will die. Mutas just don't do enough and you can kill my drones all you want with them my roaches will kill all your buildings first. And just stick to a few.

Don't ever not get infestors if the game progresses far enough.

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Late game

The order of the late game is broodlords. If you can get ultras out before the broods are done then G.G. but if the come too late you are boned. Ultras can get out faster than broodlords especially if he hasn't prepared spire. Scout for a spire and if you see none you're safe to go ultras.

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Like I said I will be endevouring to make this prettier in the near future
If I have missed anything or something is unclear post below. Direct all attempts to troll at FXOmOOnGlaDe as I noticed he uses the same style (but he does it much better of course)

Quick Comments

PapaBigBelly:

nice little guide

[crAzerk]

Yea actually this is exactly the build that Glade does for ALL his ZvZs, besides the fact that he never lets the game transition into mid game
He will basically go for some sort of all-in if it gets to 2 base, or just play bling micro warz if you went ling/bling too.
He somehow always manages to make his all-in work - I remember a game against Rev recently when Rev got a nice wall of roaches against Glade's ling/bling - but Glade simply busted the roach wall with blings and won it

Just two things that I have to comment on:

there is a timing where you can morph 5-6 banelings and have the opportunity to do some damage

Erm, no, if you went speed / banes I don't think there is this time. If there is it just means your opponent didn't do his Roach opening right. We can test it out though.

It's the baneling rush (skip speed, straight bling nest... even then I don't think this hits fast enough. Needs close spawn probably) or some early pool banelings that will hit before my roaches can get out in time. And even then some decent Drone split (even I can do it, much less Masters/GMs) will minimize baneling damage and it will be pretty even.

5. He went hatch first ->

A safer defence of 15 hatch is actually a Roach defence, and I find the timing will be such that I CAN get roaches out in time before (enough) blings can come and my ramp is blocked
The only problem is for a map where the expo is far from the ramp (e.g. XNC) in which speedlings will be able to force a hatch cancel as the roaches can't cover both ramp and expo.

[AlphaWhale]

Have you faced any players who bring queens to block as well?

I find an extra queen is really nice when I decide to go roach defense to hold off the initial pressure and then take a hatchery.

Quick Comments

PapaBigBelly:

[Meatex]

For the second point this style is not trying to defend, if you go 14 gas 14 pool and banelings - you are wanting to be aggressive and in fact you need to. Your speed will finish much earlier and you need to make use of that or your opening fails.
2 base will beat 1 base if the 1 base player doesn't be aggressive - if the 1 baser is trying the old style +1 burrow roach timing and the 2 baser is going standard mass roach the 2 base player will win regardless of any nice burrow micro because he will just have more roaches. (though if he drones too much its different)
The best defense against 15 hatch is to 15 hatch yourself ^^

The first point you quoted out of context. If have tested it many times with masters players and there is a very brief window of opportunity if he goes standard roach opening thats why you scout with 2 lings before making banelings. If the opponent goes 13 pool 15 gas the roaches are out in time. 14 pool 15 gas then there is a 5 second-ish window. The banelings should finish about the time that the opponent starts his roaches or shortly after. Depending on map banelings will arrive at the mineral line about the time the roaches pop.

[Meatex]

I have lost to a player who went quite early pool and expansion and had 2 queens out by the time my banelings went to waddle in. But he delayed my banelings very well.
Standard timings means he will only have 1 queen out and the creep won't be spread far enough in time so the queen gets 1 baneling. Again if you scout that he has too much defense just don't morph banelings - can cancel the nest if he's going roaches - and use large ling numbers to deter expo.
If he goes FE and makes 2 queens and uses them to block. I actually find they ausually aren't in place in time and he will need to sacrafice getting ling numbers to get 2 queens asap. I can usually surround the queen at the natural or if he does block I just kill the natural while I expo

[crAzerk]

if he goes standard roach opening.... 14 pool 15 gas

The roach opening I do is 14 pool 14 gas, and it is in time for any baneling attack unless it's an early pool or it's close spawn then it may be close. And as mentioned some drone micro should get an even exchange at most for you.
We can test this later when I reach home I guess

You totally misunderstood my second point. You said that against a 15 hatch, you have to be aggressive and use banes on drones, etc.
Yes, i totally agree with that point about being aggressive. You NEED to do some damage or get the hatch down if not you will be behind as you said.

But what I'm saying is that MY defence for 15 hatch (when I'm playing it, and you are the one being aggressive against me) is not a ling opener but a roach opener, which defends the ling/bling aggression alot better. In fact, if you have invested too much in your ling/bling I'll just push out with Roaches (or roach/bling if you have pumped too many speedlings) and counterpush you and win.

[Meatex]

Obviously because the opening cuts drones if I don't do damage against a hatch first I'm all but dead
However hatch first roach opening doesn't cut it on any map
If you manage to black your ramp I kill you hatch, you won't have enough roaches to move out in time. If I see you are going to block you ramp before my banes can get in I won't morph banes, likely even cancel the banelings nest and transition into roach ling off 2 bases. If you move your roaches out to attack I can run by or just kill your roaches with lings then have free reign.

[crAzerk]

However hatch first roach opening doesn't cut it on any map

Oh, looks like my many ZvZ wins with hatch->roach were all flukes.

If you manage to black your ramp I kill you hatch, you won't have enough roaches to move out in time

Are you even reading entirely what I've said or just glazing over and rebutting whatever you deem fit?
On some maps, yes, the expo is too far to guard both hatch and ramp. On others, it is near enough so I CAN defend both.

likely even cancel the banelings nest and transition into roach ling off 2 bases.

And... how is that superior to a 15 hatch?

If you move your roaches out to attack I can run by or just kill your roaches with lings then have free reign.

Said it before, will say it again. Roach Baneling.

[Meatex]

Not flukes you played the coin toss game and won. 1 base roach is a close call and there is no way you have roaches out in time to defend if you go hatch first.
Maybe there is some custom maps that you can defend both but I haven't played any on ladder
Care to enlighten me?
I attack your hatch and there isn't a map I have seen where your roaches can kill my lings while blocking the ramp at the same time. I have the same problem when I try fast 6 roaches into expo. I can't stop the lings attacking my hatch without leaving an opening for the lings to run by into the main.
Like i said in this guide it requires high level of control, if my control and multi isn't up to snuff you can win with that because I fail to exploit your greediness or I fail to macro properly while controlling my units. Thats the big weakness in this build.

And chances are you haven't faced my style of this build before. Because until I saw moonglade play I NEVER encountered a zerg who played it like me, even if they went the same build.

[Benji]

15 hatch roach can work, but its a weak metagame build because it straight up loses to 10 pool (assuming equal skill) and is weak to a speedling expand as you have no map control (without getting alot of lings on top of your roaches setting you behind).

The speedling/baneling opening you describe is good, because it is probably the most flexible opening you have, and isn't hard countered by anything, it is soft countered by a Roach expand however (15 hatch, 15 pool, 16 warren), but as long as you either do some damage with the banes, or don't commit them at all, you can do alright with some smart decision making.

The trick vs roach builds is to use speedlings to harrass around their natural (or keep them contained as you expand) and drone behind it. You want to pick off drones and stray units, or simply be there hopefully forcing units. Just make sure they don't amass a huge army whilst you're getting 50 drones, keep tabs on what they have.

What you might not know is that against common 1 base roach openings (normally seen as the counter to this) there is a timing where you can morph 5-6 banelings and have the opportunity to do some damage

You're right on this, but when I scout and see a roach warren on 1 base, I generally start droning, because aggression with a roach build is either going to be weak, or allin and you can usually drone a little before you need to react to any attacks. Yes your banes can get in there and put you ahead, but that's risky. What if they miss? You're behind, instead you can make some smart decisions and get ahead.

Literally JUST played this game (http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=316) and whilst I don't pride myself on my macro or micro, look at the decisions i made based on what I scout (keep an eye on my drone count). This is generally how I play my earlygame ZvZ as its safer, and less reliant on getting banes to hit anything (which is really risky in low numbers)

[crAzerk]

Anyway, played a test game with paroxy to test one base roach vs ling/bling - it wasn't even close? We were close air spawn though, not close spawn. My roaches got out in time just as the speedlings reach my base (much less banelings)
http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=317 Replay here
Please do enlighten me on what paroxysm did wrong (he did ling/bling), otherwise I don't think how it's a 'close call'.

Yea, I hate that 15 hatch loses to 10 pool, that's the biggest flaw of the build. That's why I generally dont do 15 hatch on maps where I CANT scout my opponent fast enough (e.g. slagpits/typhon/taldarim) for that. Yes I am a noob that drone scouts

For hatch first, it is defendable for sure on maps (yes, ladder maps -_- ) with close enough ramps (e.g. metal, ST) but so on others (XNC, Backwater), against a speedling opening.
You just have to dance Roaches out to snipe lings constantly between your ramp and hatch, while transiting to banelings (when I see you are sending out so many lings)

And yes Benji is right in what he said, the speedling contain is probably the best you can manage, but you do need to transition quickly to roaches otherwise you will instant-loss to roach/baneling push

[PiG]

Lol i watched idra vs zenio! Most pathetic 8 pool I've ever seen! If your pool's earlier then 10 you NEED to commit to it, like, bring some drones and build crawlers you pansy zenio! But yeah I agree the openers aren't really coin-flips. I think drone scouting is something everyone should be doing until they really understand the matchup very well. I personally don't drone scout because I know exactly what my reactions will be depending on what I find.

Scouting is definitely of utmost importance as in any matchup, After the opening stages when all scouting is denied bar that of slow overlords, the usual scouting involves just saccing an ovie towards the main and HOPING you'll see if lair is on the way or not. However i prefer to simply position my ovies so i can poke in on the 3rd and 4th gases and tell from them if my opponent is heading for the tier 2 tech that im really scared of: hydra/infestor/muta. If he has 3rd/4th gases chances are I'm not facing a tier 1 +1 roach/bane roach/ling timing. This is really important in the midgame as basically it revolves around extremely powerful timing attacks. The general rule is if you're over 5 drones above your opponent when he hits his timing then you will lose. (Obviously spines/extra queens and map distance change this). The reason you can't get far ahead in drones is because the defenders advantage isn't as large when you have identical unit combos. Furthermore, as your opponent has his whole build focused on this timing attack, he should have it timed so it hits right as his production cycle finishes, most often catching your cycle somewhere in the middle. So not only have you spent 5 or more larvae on drones, but your round of units could be delayed by long enough that you've already lost the fight when they pop.

Ok so what I think of the actual build:

Opening:

Very similar to what I do most games, very solid play that relies on you reacting properly and controlling your units right. My 1 disagreement is with step 5. If your opponent has gone hatch first then they will have enough lings to fight off your initial lings, and spines/roaches + queens (Assuming they're an experienced player). You can hope to do damage with your banes however I would strongly advise against it unless its a map like xel naga caverns where they can't defend both the ramp and the hatchery, and even then if they skip 1 or both queens and go straight for roaches you will be fought off and solidly behind.

I would advise in the case of hatch first to stop harvesting gas, cancel your banes nest and take an expo ASAP. Using 10-12 speedlings you should be able to get up the ramp and just run circles picking off 3-10 drones (if they skip roaches and have poor control you can literally run circles forever and its hilarious how many kills you can get.) Every few seconds you need to just shift command your lings around the main whilst you inject, get your 2nd queen, and build ovies and drones. You also want to get a roach warren or baneling nest so you can defend from a counter. If you multitask both of these then you will be solidly ahead in most situations.

If your opponent skips queens completely then he can fight you off very quickly and counter very fast, you need to be wary of super fast roaches as an indication of this, and know that your opponent is on a very low drone count, so you can't drone much past 20 yourself if you want to defend the inevitable roach counter. Obviously how much u can drone depends on map distance in the case of roaches.

There are a few situations where the above reaction doesn't work: If your opponent has gone for really fast gas, skipped banes/roaches/spines his speed won't actually be far behind yours and the moment he cleans up your harass he can counter and if you don't have banes, simply win. This is a retarded build and easy to spot. If you see no spines and no roach warren/bane nest (try to scout his main with 1 of your first lings) then you are facing a retard. In this case don't cancel your banes nest and just win the game with 1 base bane/ling :P


Mid-game: What i said above about timings n checking gas etc.

Otherwise totally agree with what you said about the mid-game. Great understanding.

Late-game

I disagree that broods are the order of the lategame, if you're playing steppes of war then yes, they are awesome. However you have to remember that you probably won't have any damage upgrades forr them, so the broodlings themselves will do 1 damage on average to roaches. So they only act as a meatshield. When your dealing with 200 food armies of roach hydra infestor, 20hp units shot onnly once every 2.5 seconds, dont really achieve much. Especially not for the cost of the broodlords themselves and the tech to get there: Corruptor is like 100/100 + BL morph is 150/150 (correct me if im wrong). So basically if you havent had time to invest in a seperate tech route they aren't the sudden game-changing seige damage that they used to be, before fungal became insane. Nowadays in a battle the meat they provide means jack because your opponents extra 8 infestors just demolished your roach hydra support.

This is of course generally speaking, in some situations they still payoff in straightup battles, however my main problem is they're SLOW.
Lategame ZvZ is all about harass, map control and SPESHAL Tactics. IF your opponent goes broods you just have more space to peel off your army in 3 directions and wipe out 3 hatches whilst he has to stay near his broods to protect them as they lumber through the skies.

Much more important is using tunneling claw roaches to go to every 1 of your opponents mineral lines and kill workers. As he goes to defend them you send bigger chunks of roaches to kill his isolated units.

Likewise use burrowed infestors to burrow through any gaps in your opponents detection and spam 50 infested terrans on their Hive, tech structures, hatcheries and drones. Infested terrans are the most ridiculously good unit so this rocks.

A way to make these 2 units even beter: Drop them past your enemies defenses into their base. in the late-game 8 roaches and a few infestors can demolish the main in 30 seconds easily.

These sorts of special tactics get even better as you pull youyr opponents army out of position and engage with the superior concave, which is INSANELY important in roach vs roach battles and EVEN MORE important when infestors are added to the mix.

Ultras are great in certain situations, however generally they are fat and drop extremly fast to roach hydra, they often simply can't get surface area to do their damage, even with fungal growth, unless you're MAXED on them, in which case they can survive long enuf to streamroll mostly anything.


So yeah these are my thoughts on your guide!

I think its a very good job and am really impressed with the opener! Thanks for taking the time to write it up Meatex.

[PiG]

Lol Sorry Meatex apprarently im not spreading enough reputation so I can't your post haha

[Meatex]

I checked the replay and paroxy's banes were 15 seconds late - he over droned meaning his lings were about 20-30 seconds late. He went baneling opening but didn't commit and wasn't aggressive.

Thanks for the imput PiG and Benji. I agree its likely smarter to not go banes and drone, play defense but my style is to take risks
Again also probably smarter to cancel banes and just expo asap while you harass with lings but if the banes get in a do damage its worth it ^^

I will admit the game rarely progresses to tier 3 for me so I have little experience there. Maps like Metal when you have half they map they have half broodlords rock. And the broodlings won't be doing a lot of damage but they mess up pathing and the AI giving you the edg. At least in the few games I played.
Though the harass and Special Taktics style late game would probably pay dividends much better than playing like a protoss and clashing two bio balls

[Benji]

Ultras are great in certain situations, however generally they are fat and drop extremly fast to roach hydra, they often simply can't get surface area to do their damage, even with fungal growth, unless you're MAXED on them, in which case they can survive long enuf to streamroll mostly anything.

I usually go Brood/Hydra/Corruptor/Infestor if it gets to Tier3 ZvZ. Ultras are not worth the investment imo when you have Broodlords as an option.

[FvRelimzkE]

Unbeatable ZvZ strat > all ZvZ strats.
It's official: ZvZ is broken.