SC2SEA.com - Starcraft 2 SEA eSports Community Site

**syfSoundwave** · Sat, 11th-Jan-2014, 3:44 PM

Yeah, like abbadonz (anyone who attended ACL Melbourne may know him as Dale, the super cool admin) told me, with the wave of retirements, the field is WIDE OPEN for someone to break out and get some seriously good results within the Australian scene.

I don't see PiG or KingKong relinquishing their place as top dogs for the remainder of the time they play SC2/participate in Aussie tournaments, but now the spots for the rest of SEA's elite are very open.

**x5_dot** · Sat, 11th-Jan-2014, 3:46 PM

Though I'm not a player, I've closely watched one for 2.5 years now and would like to say to those to want to fill those shoes: play smart. Laddering all day every day only does so much. If you're going to invest a lot of time into being a better player, or a competitive player, work out how to do it efficiently. There's plenty of room there up the top for those who do so.

Fenner · Sat, 11th-Jan-2014, 3:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x5_dot

Though I'm not a player, I've closely watched one for 2.5 years now and would like to say to those to want to fill those shoes: play smart. Laddering all day every day only does so much. If you're going to invest a lot of time into being a better player, or a competitive player, work out how to do it efficiently. There's plenty of room there up the top for those who do so.

Meanwhile Petraeus quickly becoming the best SEA player by massing ladder as much as possible.

SLCN.NXZ · Sat, 11th-Jan-2014, 4:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fray`fenner

Meanwhile Petraeus quickly becoming the best SEA player by massing ladder as much as possible.

Hows that going for you? #shotsfired

**x5_dot** · Sat, 11th-Jan-2014, 4:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fray`fenner

Meanwhile Petraeus quickly becoming the best SEA player by massing ladder as much as possible.

I stand by what I say. Ladder can only bring you so far.

Fenner · Sat, 11th-Jan-2014, 4:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x5_dot

How'd that go for you? :P

I stand by what I say. Ladder can only bring you so far.

I've tried focusing more on analyzing and working out my mistakes, watching replays a lot, watching a lot of pro games and I've also tried the mass laddering method... The fact is I am yet to find any way of improving despite trying lots of different methods. In the last 1.5 years I've barely improved at all. I'm a slightly different case than most people, it seems.

I don't disagree with you, maybe Pet would be way better if he did other stuff instead of mass laddering, iw as just pointing out that it's working out pretty well for him.

Optimal practice is something that interests me a lot, and I've spent a lot of time reading how the best people practice in other sports but the fact is, none of those practice methods are easily transferable over to a video game. The only PROVEN method for improvement in sc2 is playing a lot of games and watching your replays when youre lost - which possibly works out better in customs/when you have a good team behind you being able to converse with them and share brain power.

**x5_dot** · Sat, 11th-Jan-2014, 4:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fray`fenner

The only PROVEN method for improvement in sc2 is playing a lot of games and watching your replays when youre lost - which possibly works out better in customs/when you have a good team behind you being able to converse with them and share brain power.

I think that^^ already sounds like a better way to improve than laddering by yourself.

I don't doubt that Pet got to where he is now by laddering, and doing so a lot, but everyone plays differently, some are more mechanically focused, etc.

Out of curiosity, what other things have you tried doing? And what is your practice schedule like? It would be interesting to compare this with others.

Fenner · Sat, 11th-Jan-2014, 4:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x5_dot

I think that^^ already sounds like a better way to improve than laddering by yourself.

I don't doubt that Pet got to where he is now by laddering, and doing so a lot, but everyone plays differently, some are more mechanically focused, etc.

Out of curiosity, what other things have you tried doing? And what is your practice schedule like? It would be interesting to compare this with others.

I went through a good period a while back of watching a LOT of replays vods and figuring out why people played like that, writing down builds etc. Aloing with singleplayer macro practice (idea was if you just play singleplayer you're always going to get lategame which means you get good macro practice, kinda like an exercise drill just to keep mechanics up)

Right now I'm just laddering, checking replays when im clueless and watching vods when im super clueless ;D for about 6 hours a day (8 hours if you include my stream, but that shouldn't be as effective)

**x5_dot** · Sat, 11th-Jan-2014, 4:49 PM

Re: PiG's training. This is Jared's schedule board:

Granted, he doesn't always do things in this order, or include all of that, or even start at 9, but it helps him order his day a little. He normally does 4 hr sessions, but is experimenting with shorter sessions too. Sessions can include anything from laddering to streaming to coaching to customs with others. Not saying THIS is the way to do things, but really, there's many other things to do to improve and as the meta shifts constantly, its about keeping up with that as well.

E.g. He met a huge brick wall v terran a few months ago, which not only affected his play but also his confidence. After a (long) while he realised laddering wasn't helping and sought help with a practice partner. Once he figured it out, he went back to laddering more. I can only imagine this will occur again if he becomes stuck again.

**Maynarde** · Sat, 11th-Jan-2014, 4:53 PM

Hahaha I love how "Dorothy Time" is only 1 hour maximum. Priorities! ^

Fenner · Sat, 11th-Jan-2014, 4:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x5_dot

Re: PiG's training. This is Jared's schedule board:

Granted, he doesn't always do things in this order, or include all of that, or even start at 9, but it helps him order his day a little. He normally does 4 hr sessions, but is experimenting with shorter sessions too. Sessions can include anything from laddering to streaming to coaching to customs with others. Not saying THIS is the way to do things, but really, there's many other things to do to improve and as the meta shifts constantly, its about keeping up with that as well.

E.g. He met a huge brick wall v terran a few months ago, which not only affected his play but also his confidence. After a (long) while he realised laddering wasn't helping and sought help with a practice partner. Once he figured it out, he went back to laddering more. I can only imagine this will occur again if he becomes stuck again.

Yeah very similar to me including wake up time haha. Although I tend to practice in 2 hour sessions since I find that 4 hours is pretty unhealthy, since i had problems with wrists before 2 hour sessions solved that.

SLCN.Petrify · Sat, 11th-Jan-2014, 5:01 PM

My advice? Don't play at all.

No but seriously, laddering is pretty useless most of the time, it just keeps your mechanics sharp. Custom games vs practice partners is where its at.

syfChase · Sat, 11th-Jan-2014, 5:15 PM

omg dot that PiG schedule is adorable

ROOTPetraeus · Sat, 11th-Jan-2014, 5:17 PM

It's true I don't have a lot of experience with "refined" or practice. I don't do a lot of analysis of replays or working on specific areas; I just like to ladder. I feel that this mostly works out for me but I'm sure there are more efficient ways of doing it.

However I feel that this is another area of eSports where people are given far too much credit. Similar to people who appear to not practice at all, people who supposedly have smarter and more efficient practice are given so much more respect than "ladder warriors". People often disregard results and just assume that if someone is playing customs or watching replays instead of laddering that they are doing a better job.

Comments like "laddering is pretty useless most of the time" are great examples of how people fall for the illusion of more efficient practice.

SLCN.Petrify · Sat, 11th-Jan-2014, 5:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fray`Petraeus

Comments like "laddering is pretty useless most of the time" are great examples of how people fall for the illusion of more efficient practice.

Have you ever seen someone win a gsl and credit their win to ladder? They always thank players for practicing with them.