[Makra]

I've been curious about this for a while, and have only seen fairly poor explanations of why Zerg is the reactionary race on TeamLiquid forums. Most of these explanations have been along the lines of, "if the zerg sees lots of marines, then he makes banelings. Or if he see's lots of stalkers, he makes hydras, therefore playing a reactionary style". To me that doesn't make zerg exclusively reactionary, that's just building counters, like every race has to do.

In my thoughts, I've come to this explanation. Zerg is reactionary, particularly in the early game, because he has to choose between producing drones, and producing units. Ideally he only wants to make drones at the beginning, however if he scouts an incoming attack, he is forced to react and produce units instead.

Now, before I move onto the next section, I put it to high level players, is this explanation correct?

Ok, assuming that's correct, let's move onto another question. Is the zerg race only 'reactionary' when the zerg is trying to macro and gain an economic advantage? If the zerg is early pooling, roach rushing, or 1 base bane busting, he isn't really playing a reactionary style is he? However, this is fairly uncommon play at high level though.

So, is Zerg only reactionary when a standard play style is followed (15 hatch, 14 pool14hatch etc)? Does this mean that zerg in team games (where the players are following a very aggressive playstyle) is not a reactionary race?

[PiG]

Quote: So, is Zerg only reactionary when a standard play style is followed (15 hatch, 14 pool14hatch etc)? Does this mean that zerg in team games (where the players are following a very aggressive playstyle) is not a reactionary race?

Good point dude. I would say tht yes they aren't reactionary in team games unless they go for those early expo type of builds... and even then they usually follow a set path of mass roach/muta.

Tho I dont play team games much tht seems 2 b how it goes

Um yeah and ur right, in early econ game zerg is reactionary cos hes building drones... but recently zergs are finding there are ways to force your opponent into a certain thing, or even use bane=drops/muta harass or even huge roach bane attacks (julyzerg) to take the initiative. Once the zerg can scout and has mobile aggression up, if played right, he isnt really reactionary anymore.

[Xeen]

The Zerg is 'reactionary' in standard play because of how their macro mechanics and units work. Banelings offer a way to cost-effectively trade armies, Mutalisks harass and delay the enemy - it's all designed to allow Z to buy time to build up into unstoppable macro mode where they have colossal unit production. This means they have to, more than any other race, focus on reacting to the aggression of the other player. Then there's the whole thing about larvae management, etc.

BW was pretty much the same - while Z have many aggressive options, they tend to be more about delaying than outright killing, so that they can bring the power of their endgame to bear.

I hesitate to use teamgames as a reference because most of the aggressive openers that are meant to just win outright have no tactical depth to discuss. You can't call Zerg proactive because of blind rushes, after all - and a lot of the less all-in attacks use the mobility of their units to buy time more that just kill.

[nirvAnA]

their ability to expand easily, making most of their builds revolve around having more drones and just enough to defend their expansions rather then investing resources in tech/timing attacks

[nGenWild]

Meh, if u dnt like reactionary, just make 100banelings and roll over everything

[Makra]

So, you could almost say that reactionary is more of a playstyle, rather than being an intrinsic aspect of the race? That's what I've been thinking anyway. But most people seem to say that zerg is reactionary and there's nothing you can do about it lol.

[nirvAnA]

i dont think july is reactionary at all lol

[Stroggos]

zerg can be very reactionary. its not always the best way to go though. In zvp i see a lot of zergs reacting far too much which is a losing playstyle in that matchup atm.

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

i dont think july is reactionary at all lol

That's also because half the games he wins, he all-ins.

[Harmonik]

I think players like July are showing that Zerg doesnt have to play reactionary, tho of course there has alwasy been aggressive zerg build like bane bust etc. I think it will become more and more popular now.

The reason Zerg is normally reactionary comes down to this. I have to stay one base ahead of you in order to beat you. That makes macro my priority. I will have to sacrifice getting a standby army to do this. And instead only react or switch to building army units when my opponent forces me to. A part of that reaction is building counters so that i spend minimal resources, so that I have maximum left over to go back into macro.

All this requires good map control and scouting so that i know how to react.

[TAEdgE]

Zerg uses units and time to defend, because they dont have units that have for example, + vs armored or + vs light (except baneling). There are no defensive units like the siege tank (or thor vs mutas) or forcefield/9 range collosus that can punch above it's weight in tight areas.

It's about reacting and swarming, that's one generic term. Everyone else is basically right.

[Makra]

Interesting you say that about no defensive units or abilities Edge, also about the no bonus damage units. Never really thought about that.

[ZergGirl]

Originally Posted by EdgE

Zerg uses units and time to defend, because they dont have units that have for example, + vs armored or + vs light (except baneling). There are no defensive units like the siege tank (or thor vs mutas) or forcefield/9 range collosus that can punch above it's weight in tight areas.

It's about reacting and swarming, that's one generic term. Everyone else is basically right.

+1
And creep (especially early game) is a rather defensive tool so it all just adds up to a big passive, reactionary race.

You can do what july is doing but it has a lot of vulnerabilities, it's just like the kyrix play; new build, people don't react to it properly themselves so they lose. It (imo) wont last long. Terran can just turtle, slowpush to 200/200 and then steamroll. MC will squash it :P

[PapaBigBelly]

Since zerg is quite reactionary, they should be given buffs for scouting.

e.g. Increased Speed of the overlord speed upgrade.
More vision for overlords and Overseers.
A choice of different types of units the changeling can change into.
5 Minerals to be harvested by a drone ! ( yeah i know its not related to scouting but drones only give backk 4 minerals and 4 gas its so frustrating honestly )

[cruxis]

I don't know what game you're playing, but drones mine at 5 minerals per trip.

[nGenYoda]

What Edge said.
In simple terms Larva -> produces both army and workers, unlike other races which can simultaneously produce workers and units. Managing larva (ie droning / army production) is a reaction to the stimuli ( scouting a push coming, etc).

[PapaBigBelly]

cruxiz, drones bring back 4. I see games and replays and they do bring back 4. Yeah maybe some mineral patches bring back 5 but i remembered watching a day 9 video and he was going crazy about how perfect the timing of the hatchery was that the player had only 4 minerals when the hatchery was build. thats 4 minerals left over. i also watch my drones as they bring back minerals, i see the number 4

[Makra]

I thought blue minerals harvest at 5 per trip, and gold at 7 per trip....

[ETL.Santi]

In my opinion most zergs are reactionary because of they lack of RTS games skills. Most terrans dictate the match because of their superior skills.

It has nothing to do with the game, just the way people play each race.

[TAEdgE]

Originally Posted by Santi

In my opinion most zergs are reactionary because of they lack of RTS games skills. Most terrans dictate the match because of their superior skills.

It has nothing to do with the game, just the way people play each race.

Gotta be more subtle with the trolling Santi

Then the follow up 'no, i'm serious' post.

[PapaBigBelly]

sorry cruxis i was wrong :P
how embarrasing hahaha
dones do give back 5 minerals

but the number from 1 to 5 look slower for drones rather than probes or scvs.

Zerg is just a different kind of game style. Its the odd one out. i think that Zerg players have to be more skilled about game sense and mechanics as well as larva management and flanking and macro.

I really do believe Zergs need more skill and game sense to face an equal league tier toss or terran player. I started silver as Zerg on Sea. but i started Gold as Terran on NA
As terran, i trash even plat zergs on NA but as a platinum Zerg, I struggle to face up to terran and toss on Sea.

Playing as terran now, i realize that its actually not easy to play terran. However their defences and options and haraass techniques are far more superior. Toss is imba and im not going into that but generally most of the games, its Terran or Toss coming up with the strategy and action and the zerg has to respond to it. Toss and Terran basically control T,P v Z

[ETL.Santi]

The reason you struggle with SEA players is becasue they are superior players than NA, everyone here in lower leagues get better ranks in NA.

To be honest I would say terran is harder to play when the zerg knows how to be aggressive simple because zergs production is easier and faster.

[deL]

They just need more electrolites.

[PapaBigBelly]

btw im Plat Terran on NA and my main race is Zerg :P

anyway i think zerg is a difficult race to play, especially against Protoss.

[Meaning]

Zerg is reactionary because they must "react" to whichever units protoss / terran decide to get

Marines need banelings
Collosus need corruptors or some other tech as Roach Hydra gets squashed
Templars cant make hydras
blueflame hellions need roaches
mass thor needs nearural parasite
immortals need more zerglings

Zerg is reactionary to these units because the Hatchery is a unique production facility
The hatchery allows all types of units to built in any number, given the correct building is down

Therefore the mechanics of the hatchery allow zerg to be reactionary

The hard counterable zerg units require zerg to be reactionary

[Starhunter]

Zerg as a reactionary race is meant to be interpreted like so.
200pop vs 200pop army. Zerg has 50 roach and 3 corruptor vs stalker / collosi.
BANG. Toss dominates his army and within 55 seconds the zerg now has 200 pop army of ultralisks! Zergs racial ability unlike toss or terran is to maximize unit production fast. Meaning they are reactionary. EXPLOSIVE!

edit: Oops, just read meanings post. pretty much what he said!

[cruxis]

Zerg is reactionary because as soon as you see that 2nd rax you go from happy to angry.

[EveMassacrisM]

Zerg is reactionary because as soon as you see that 2nd rax you go from happy to angry.

I personally go from normal to happy instead. My standard ZvT build is specifically designed to kill double rax.

[Makra]

wow, some really enlightening points, it makes a lot more sense now! And i literally lol'ed at ur comment crux Oh and hey Meaning, i think we met recently in a custom, you were drunk and playing toss lol :P

[zealous]

maybe because zerg has far reached map view due to creep spread

[saplingg]

I believe the reason Zerg is often said to be reactionary, is because of the fact that each "production building" (in Zerg's case I refer to Pool, Hydra Den, Roach Warren etc) enables just one unit. This is true for every Zerg production structure except the spire.

Compare that to Terran or Toss, where each production building can churn out at least 2-3 combat units.


The fact that the barracks (with correct add on) allows terran to produce a variety of units in the early-mid game, means that terran gets to dictate Zerg's play, by selecting what the barracks churns out.

For example, if the barracks is sending out a whole bunch of marines, Zerg has no choice but to build the correct structure that enables him to deal with those marines - in most cases, a Baneling Nest. If the Barracks is building many reapers, the Zerg has to react by specifically building a Roach Warren, to deal with the reaper threat.


I hope that made some sense.

[fur]

I've barely played Zerg in SC2, but I think most have covered it well. Zerg early expand which tends to put them on the back foot, they want to mass drones and only make offensive units when their opponents force them too.

However, I'm an old BW player. As Nirvana mentioned, July isn't reactionary. Julyzerg (I'm assuming it's the same as the old BW legend) totally changed the way zerg had to played in BW as well.

Prior to him most top zerg had tried to out macro their opponents, playing a 'reactionary' style. This had proven unsuccessful at the top level. Yellow was the best Zerg in the world and was a perennial runner up. JulyZerg turned this approach on it's head, mixing in lightning timing attacks as well as being able to play a standard macro/reactionary style. His Golden Mouse is a testament to the success of this approach.

So in short, I don't really think Zerg HAS to be a reactionary race, although there is a big incentive to be. That being said, morons will call you a cheeser and an "all in" n00b if you dare do something that involves risk.

[saplingg]

Yeah that's true too. Like Mondragon in the TSL3... Totally awesome

[TAhackdZ]

Originally Posted by nGenYoda

What Edge said.
In simple terms Larva -> produces both army and workers, unlike other races which can simultaneously produce workers and units. Managing larva (ie droning / army production) is a reaction to the stimuli ( scouting a push coming, etc).

Bingo +1

It all comes down to the simple matter that Zerg need to choose to turn each individual larvae into either a drone, or a combat unit.

[deL]

Because when they lose they react by saying it's imba and their race is hard.

[Makra]

Originally Posted by deL

Because when they lose they react by saying [insert race/unit/map/strat] is imba, and call you a noob scrub

Fixed.

10 characters blah