[PiG]

I posted this on the other thread about this LAN however I feel it deserves its own thread. The map pool will be:

Blistering Sands
Delta Quadrant
Lost Temple
Metalopolis
Steppes of War
Scrap Station
Xel naga Caverns
Shakuras Plateau

Could everyone please join me in contacting the organisers (yoyo.zhang@intimegroups.com )and DEMANDING that they fix this completely imbalanced map pool! So far the organisers have replied to emails from several angry sc2 players with:

"these maps were in the ladder before, so it should be ok"
- (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...&currentpage=2)

Let's try and imagine some problems with these maps:
1) Steppes of war, rush distance = 1 screen, zerg will auto-lose against a solid T or P.
2) Lost Temple, cliff drop on natural = gg
3) Delta quadrant = so many ways for terran to drop and abuse helions or seige tanks in close positions that it is simply retarded.

There are also no vetoes!

For such a big tournament with big sponsors and coverage to actually promote imbalanced play and random game modes such as 4v4 it makes me sad and angry. As one of the top zergs on SEA my hopes of success were dashed upon seeing this ridiculous decision by the organisors. If a zerg hits the top 8 it will be due to a mix of truly spectacular play and raw luck.

I'm sure P and T recognise imbalances and lack of depth in gameplay on these maps so please PLease reply with what YOU think is wrong with this map pool.

On a further note whilst you can bring your own mouse and headphones(Who cares?) you HAVE to use their keyboards.

Yesterday I was at the City hunter charity LAN and forgot to bring my keyboard. I was playing at a much lower skill level than normally until i ducked home during lunch and got my own keyboard, following with a huge jump in my apm and skill. I was simply lucky to only vs players much lower then me to this point. From this point i won the tournament, using the equipment I TRAINED on for the last 6 months.

As someone said on TL this is like taking the favoured joggers off of an olympic sprinter right before his race.

We need to get vocal about demanding the correct professionalism and organisation from an event that is getting huge sponsorship.

If the event proceeds as planned it may actually be a step backwards for e-sports in Australia as the rest of the world watching on TL will realise just how BACKWARDS we are. First we banned L4D2, now we can't even update a goddamn map pool.

I am bloody angry please join me in contacting the organisers and getting it fixed!

Once again here is the email link: yoyo.zhang@intimegroups.com

[TAavanar]

yea imo the city hunter map pool was good it had the good new maps and i think shakuras, it will also be harder to practice for these maps and dont the organisers know of the imbalances? im dreading playing on blistering myself.
and on a side note anyone know wat keyboard they are making us use?

[deL]

I dunno, seems kinda fair after the nGen coalition of Light and Benji called all the shots for maps and group seedings at the CH LAN to avoid knocking each other out.

You have to understand this isn't a charity event - they are hosting 4v4 to show off their 'team game' booths so they benefit from this event. This is arguably more important than everything being 100% focussed on competitive play because it means there will be more events in the future. Similarly Razer is supporting the event providing keyboards and other peripherals and likewise want to show off their gear.

Originally Posted by PiG

As someone said on TL this is like taking the favoured joggers off of an olympic sprinter right before his race.

No it's like taking the shoes off EVERY runner in the race so it's a bare foot race.

[PiG]

Originally Posted by avanar

yea imo the city hunter map pool was good it had the good new maps and i think shakuras, it will also be harder to practice for these maps and dont the organisers know of the imbalances? im dreading playing on blistering myself.
and on a side note anyone know wat keyboard they are making us use?

It will be provided by Razer from what I've heard, so some people are hoping for black widows. Though tbh i just want the buttons in the right spot.

No definite news on which keyboards though.

Originally Posted by deL

I dunno, seems kinda fair after the nGen coalition of Light and Benji called all the shots for maps and group seedings at the CH LAN to avoid knocking each other out.

You have to understand this isn't a charity event - they are hosting 4v4 to show off their 'team game' booths so they benefit from this event. This is arguably more important than everything being 100% focussed on competitive play because it means there will be more events in the future. Similarly Razer is supporting the event providing keyboards and other peripherals and likewise want to show off their gear.


No it's like taking the shoes off EVERY runner in the race so it's a bare foot race.

Benji and Light were the only two ngen if they specifically put themselves on opposite ends of the bracket then oh well thats lame, but its not like either of them even made it to the finals and that was a small event with no qualifiers so I'm not too mad about it.

Maps that are specifically very imbalanced against Zerg in a 1v1 tournament that has $7000 for first prize is a big issue. It's basically saying we don't give a crap about having more exciting, macro games where zerg have a chance, we will just use the old map pool because we think the very bottom level players are more used to it.

I wasn't aware of the team-booth thing and ok that makes sense as a promotional tool.

Still, why can't they fix the map pool for 1v1? You sound like you're defending them but all i can surmise from ur argument is that they just don't care about 1v1 being competitive or even exciting for the spectators.

P.S. I agree its like taking the shoes off every runner, not just 1. So they're basically handicapping everyone just to promote the sponsors keyboards... when it's likely to have the opposite effect.

At the very least the final rounds of the tournament should be played on the players own equipment, or the top players should be provided with identical equipment weeks before the tournament.

[Eddie]

No Jungle Basin? So they can take one old map out, but not any more?

Keyboard/peripherals isn't such a big deal imo. Everyone in the same boat. Up to the organisers. I can understand why they'd like to show off their own systems/those supplied by sponsors.

[PiG]

Originally Posted by Eddie

No Jungle Basin? So they can take one old map out, but not any more?

Keyboard/peripherals isn't such a big deal imo. Everyone in the same boat. Up to the organisers. I can understand why they'd like to show off their own systems/those supplied by sponsors.

They appear to be using the pool directly before the last patch where JB had been removed but the other crap maps were still there

[Starcraftmazter]

Originally Posted by Eddie

Keyboard/peripherals isn't such a big deal imo.

Disagree, using your own equipment is probably the most important aspect to feeling comfortable while playing.

[ToRDjvillian]

Your protest worked.

The map pool has been updated! Check out the terms and conditions on the nrghardcoregamer.com.au website.

[Benji]

Benji and Light were the only two ngen if they specifically put themselves on opposite ends of the bracket then oh well thats lame, but its not like either of them even made it to the finals and that was a small event with no qualifiers so I'm not too mad about it.

We were in the same group, there was a group with 2 players and 1 with 4, Light changed group so the groups would have 3 each and we wouldn't teamkill.

[deL]

Originally Posted by Benji

We were in the same group, there was a group with 2 players and 1 with 4, Light changed group so the groups would have 3 each and we wouldn't teamkill.

nGen with 2 members there get to avoid a teamkill but TA with 4/6 in top6 didn't get any preference lol

[ETL.Santi]

PiG you should add to the OP info on how people can contact the admins.

[PiG]

Originally Posted by Santi

PiG you should add to the OP info on how people can contact the admins.

Thanks Santi, done.

[nirvAnA]

these maps are terrible. unfortunately its because the organisers dont see very knowlegable in sc2 and dont know the balance problems associated with these maps. And 7k 4v4 prize what?!

i reckon should use GSL maps or some maps from the new ladder pool because u cant go wrong by following the example of major tournaments who know their stuff well. I would personally have picked the TSL maps. Some great choices there with the maps being slightly edited even to prevent close spawns on LT/Meta.

Well we are basically gonna be using the TSL maps for the SEA SL

[Xeen]

So they use the ladder pool, removing Jungle Basin, and it's 'completely imbalanced'.

Stay classy, Zergs.

[PiG]

Originally Posted by Xeen

So they use the ladder pool, removing Jungle Basin, and it's 'completely imbalanced'.

Stay classy, Zergs.

Dude that ladder pool is old and imbalanced. It was hard enough playing on tournaments when u could only veto 1 of steppes and DQ. Without any vetoes in a bo3 every zerg will be bound to play on one of these. Are you trying to say that Steppes is a balanced map because it used to be on ladder? I really can't wait to see how you justify this.

[TAEdgE]

Originally Posted by Xeen

So they use the ladder pool, removing Jungle Basin, and it's 'completely imbalanced'.

Stay classy, Zergs.

Can tell why you don't ladder anymore, weren't getting wins on ladder vs zerg as more and more slowly got rid of jungle, delta and steppes.

Easy wins all the way mate.

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by EdgE

Can tell why you don't ladder anymore, weren't getting wins on ladder vs zerg as more and more slowly got rid of jungle, delta and steppes.

Easy wins all the way mate.

I had DQ and Steppes marked off, and Zerg removed JB anyways

PiG, my point is that while the maps may not be favorable, your scale of complaining over the maps that have been in use for some time is surprising. Quotes like 'as one of the top zergs on SEA my hopes of success were dashed upon seeing this ridiculous decision by the organisors' make it seem like you really believe the only thing holding you (and all Zergs) back are the maps. Then you proceed to write off a number of maps from single possibilities, 'X = gg'.

It's like I'm reading the BNet forums in here.

(I don't necessarily disagree, but the OP's writing is, well, heh.)

[nGenLight]

@Del: I was asked to pick a fair map pool, and I picked what I felt was the fairest maps from what was available from available maps on laddering history. If I picked what I wanted there was no way I would have picked DQ over Blistering Sands, (I'm pretty sure what the preference for me and Benji was) the opinion was that there was too many zerg maps and having DQ in there instead of BS, most of the games was played on Xel, Metal and ST, SS anyway. I had no idea/what happened in the seedings.

Back to the OP. I agree with you PIG, that does pretty look unorganised/somewhat imbalanced for zergs. Goodluck with making them change the rules, I'm sorry I really CBF to get involved.

[PiG]

Well xeen like i said i was just pissed at having to relive playing on these maps. I don't feel like i would just win the tournament if there were even maps. But I feel like I don't have a fair chance. I didn't say thats the only thing holding us zergs back, im saying that a major tourney should be up to date with balancing. You have obviously never played alot of major tournaments as zerg back when this was the map pool.

Often a map like steppes would be first up, and you would lose to timing attacks from T or P 80% of the time, 2nd map you could pick a balanced map or something "zerg favoured" like blistering or scrap (I don't really know how favoured they are cos i never got to play on them much as ppl would veto). in the 3rd game your opponent would pick DQ or LT and abuse the high-ground creating a ridiculously hard situation to win.

To be put in this situation against top Terran players like Pinder and Deth and top protoss like Light It is extremely demoralizing knowing that my best bet will be cheesy or extremely aggressive plays.


I was raging and my writing style reflects that, but i believe all of my points were valid.

P.S. I've summarised the vast reasons why these maps suck into single points because the vast majority of the people on these forums have heard and learnt from Artosis and Tasteless aswell as all the top players and casters, forums and sites why these maps are just bad.

[aLtNinja]

Sent an E-mail about the maps, i too am a little disappointed in the map pool, not even just about balance it just makes for bad games....

[zendex]

GTFO These maps are the shit!

GO ONE-YEAR OLD LADDER MAPS!!!!!!

+ Show +

Seriously, just use ESL map pool.

[YJY]

lol. no point pig. all you get will be a small % of z players...

you do know this right ? just trying to save you time if you dont xD

[PiG]

Originally Posted by YJY

lol. no point pig. all you get will be a small % of z players...

you do know this right ? just trying to save you time if you dont xD

Yoon, tbh i have no idea why ppl wouldnt complain. It's common knowledge that steppes and delta close-spawn are horrible maps. Are the terran and toss players simply so greedy they'd rather get the easy wins vs zerg than play fair sets?

[ZergGirl]

Originally Posted by PiG

Yoon, tbh i have no idea why ppl wouldnt complain. It's common knowledge that steppes and delta close-spawn are horrible maps. Are the terran and toss players simply so greedy they'd rather get the easy wins vs zerg than play fair sets?

Yes. Look at the babies arguments against it.

Good thing it was changed, would of hate to have seen ANYONE fight on Terran basin, Steppes of rush or even Lost balance.

Modded MLG maps amirite? imrite.

[TAriiChard]

IMO. It's true that the tournament organizers should use more balanced maps and that they should hold a tournament that runs as smoothly as possible for the enjoyment of the players so that their sponsors reap maximum benefits.

But on the other hand it's not our tournament. We can't go walking into a LAN telling them that these should be the rules and that their rules are wrong and that we're right. It feels as though we're telling them that they're doing a bad job (which i do think they are LOL!) which I believe would risk sponsors taking back their sponsorships if the sponsors believe the internet cafe is not capable of running the tournament.

We should just appreciate what the tournament will give to the community and hope that the next tournament will be run by organizers who know a bit about the game. And of course hope that the sponsors will continue to sponsor such events.

Just my 2 cents (hopefully I didn't contradict myself and that what I said makes sense). Looking forward to seeing all you guys there for an epic day of sc2 =)


cheers, TAriiChard

[PiG]

I agree richard we dont want sponsors to pull out. That's why despite several friends telling me to go to the sponsors and tell them about the crappy organisation Im like hells no. Im contacting the tournament admin with lots of ppl all emailing the same story so hopefully they realise that the bad organisation will be bad for publicity and sponsorship. It's up to us just to make them aware of the problem, and its up to them to decide whether to listen and host a good event in liasion with the community, or just randomly make an event that they dont advertise or plan for.

I think it was deth saying on benjis podcast last night that with the minimal advertising they'll b lucky to get even 300 of the 600 hoped for people.

Trying to improve the event and nothing more.

[TAScarecrow]

Emailed him my thoughts on their map selection, ty for the initiative

[TAriiChard]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

Emailed him my thoughts on their map selection, ty for the initiative

Scarecrow's email to the organizers - awesome selection of maps!! keep up the good work!!

[Benji]

Originally Posted by riiChard

Scarecrow's email to the organizers - awesome selection of maps!! keep up the good work!!

PS: Force close spawns on Meta and Temple

[YJY]

1) at our skill level you overestimate the impact on maps.
2) the most stupid thing to do is underestimate peoples greed. you really think toss and terrans will go out of their way to help your cause? trust me, you are wrong. i guarantee it. ' Are the terran and toss players simply so greedy they'd rather get the easy wins vs zerg than play fair sets?' sounds more like an insult to terran and toss players that wont help your cause, but if it is not, you are basing all your energy on a wrong assumption of this, save your time. 100% wrong.

I don't care about about the map pool, there are maps in the pool that are very zerg favoured. I don't like to make excuses even though the extent of unfairness is extreme. But like I said considering our skill levels and certain maps which are more zerg favoured, it doesn't really matter.

We could start going into things like protoss is OP. The skill level required to play protoss is ridiculously low compared to both zerg and terran. Its just the way things are man.

That being said if we end up vsing each other and I lose the first round, I'll give you the choice of second round map if you want.

Like I said. Excuses are nothing. I like to play at ridiculous disadvantages. It's more fun and I embrace challenge.

Also, Shakuras, Blistering sands and scrap station are zerg maps. Like I said there are imbalances and balances.

[ZergGirl]

Originally Posted by YJY

1) at our skill level you overestimate the impact on maps.
2) the most stupid thing to do is underestimate peoples greed. you really think toss and terrans will go out of their way to help your cause? trust me, you are wrong. i guarantee it. ' Are the terran and toss players simply so greedy they'd rather get the easy wins vs zerg than play fair sets?' sounds more like an insult to terran and toss players that wont help your cause, but if it is not, you are basing all your energy on a wrong assumption of this, save your time. 100% wrong.

Maps always determine the balance in a match-up and how the game is played.. Don't say silly things :P

And I also think for money people will say whatever will benefit them the most, majority of the time. You are one of the few who dont it seems

(p.s play zerg! join the swarm)

maps don't matter, iccup shrinkage go.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/eQtYNJoTWgs/0.jpg

[TAScarecrow]

Just got this:
We discussed the maps' problem, and we will change it to new maps pool

However, when you get a e-mail from the NRG, it means official notes

Best regards

Yoyo

[Hocus]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

Just got this:
We discussed the maps' problem, and we will change it to new maps pool

I emailed my thoughts too, glad to hear of this.

[sheepy]

Awsome . i think its really important that tourneys stay up to date with the latest maps

[Crankenstein]

Yeah I don't think I would be able to play without my naga :3

[PiG]

I just got word from ICHORonehand another manly zerg player :P that steppes has been removed!

Edit: the whole map pool is now the current blizzard ladder maps.

Thanks for all your support in sending emails guys. I know i probably raged a bit too hard near the beginning of this thread especially and commented on a few things very strongly when I probably didn't have the right to. I also probably made it sound like it was more imbalanced against zerg then every1 else when what i meant was simply that the maps were bad and spoke from my experiences on them.

I think what we can all agree on is that the sets will be more exciting atleast with steppes removed! Though I'd love to see a single veto in effect too, I'm happy to see the organisers are responding to the community and really do want to hold a great event.

(Tried to post this last night net fkd up)

[NvPinder]

how about we just have a scouts honour between everyone that if it says 'backwater gulch' it actually means 'just play xel'naga yo'?

[PiG]

Originally Posted by JPMoney

how about we just have a scouts honour between everyone that if it says 'backwater gulch' it actually means 'just play xel'naga yo'?

That is perhaps the best suggestion I've heard, ever.

Except we should also include slag pits and close spawn DQ amIright?

[Hocus]

Originally Posted by PiG

close spawn DQ

There's a far spawn on dq?

[PiG]

Originally Posted by Hocus

There's a far spawn on dq?

Cross map, furthest of 3 enemy spawning locations :P

[aLtNinja]

Originally Posted by JPMoney

how about we just have a scouts honour between everyone that if it says 'backwater gulch' it actually means 'just play xel'naga yo'?

Hahaha hell yes

[YJY]

LOL. Congrats man Im happy for you.

Looks like I will be seeing you win it piggy xD.

What are the maps in the current map pool ?

[Snx`Azz]

Originally Posted by YJY

LOL. Congrats man Im happy for you.

Looks like I will be seeing you win it piggy xD.

What are the maps in the current map pool ?

Pig will have lots of tough competition, at least 3 players who are probably considered favourites to win this.

[Benji]

Originally Posted by GGAzz

Pig will have lots of tough competition, at least 3 players who are probably considered favourites to win this.

According the the website, fnatic and SK are sending players.

[Snx`Azz]

Originally Posted by Benji

According the the website, fnatic and SK are sending players.

Exactly my point, hence 'minimum of 3'.

But I wouldn't stress over it much as all-ins vs them will be stronger due to latency lOL.

[PiG]

Originally Posted by GGAzz

Exactly my point, hence 'minimum of 3'.

But I wouldn't stress over it much as all-ins vs them will be stronger due to latency lOL.

Yeah sen etc might be coming down, def. wouldnt call sum1 with my experience a favourite :P.

Are you coming to the lan Azz? Still with VT?

[Mr_Zain]

This sounds fairly epic, glhf guys. I might rock up if I don't sleep through it

[TAriiChard]

I would love to know who sent an email to the organizers complaining about the 4v4. Do please tell me.

[PiG]

Originally Posted by riiChard

I would love to know who sent an email to the organizers complaining about the 4v4. Do please tell me.

Not me! I have no issue with the random fun orgy that is 4v4, though i do find it amusing that it has such a big prize pool!

[TAriiChard]

Originally Posted by PiG

Not me! I have no issue with the random fun orgy that is 4v4, though i do find it amusing that it has such a big prize pool!

I'm just hoping that someone admits to it. I need someone to yell at. Wasted almost 10 hours of practice time.

[Nodz]

yell at me... it was me, I told them that 4v4 is ******* stupid and a waste of time and money. uMAD?

[Benji]

Originally Posted by Nodz

yell at me... it was me, I told them that 4v4 is ******* stupid and a waste of time and money. uMAD?

I wouldn't be if they changed it 2 weeks ago, but 4 days before the first qualifier and all of a sudden i've wasted 10+ hours practicing team games when I could have been practicing 1v1 in my very limited time I have to actually play the game.

Now i've got 4 days to practice 1 months worth of 1v1 (the last time I had time to ladder 1v1) as well as cast 2 events and cast 13 replays, on top of this I need to prepare for my podcast on Monday. Thanks idiot.

[deL]

Originally Posted by Nodz

yell at me... it was me, I told them that 4v4 is ******* stupid and a waste of time and money. uMAD?

What enrages me more is the fact someone listened to Nodz.

[TAhackdZ]

It's good to see the organisers have taken the players advice on this matter. Hopefully this whole thing goes down really well, and the sponsors decide to do more tourney's in the future.

Shame I can't make it though

Go go TA, bring home all the money's!

[TAriiChard]

Hi Nodz. Are you still in iCHOR?

[deL]

Xeris doesn't know anything about this supposed fnatic player attending this o.O

[Benji]

I assumed they were flying in, and by 3 I also assumed you meant the 3 msi boys going.

And interesting del, I also didn't know SK had a SC2 team? Anyone notable on it?

[deL]

jimpo is the only one I have heard of and he is quite good.