[mopy]

Hi all, so phoenix builds are relatively popular in PvP these day, I use them quite often on larger maps where macro games are more likely, to harass scout etc. Neway i was wondering how you play out a situation where both players open phoenix. Lower league players generally go dts when they see pheonix in the hope no robo is made. However most higher league players play it safe and get the robo. Generally in mirror build situations scouting becomes very important so i will get my obs and scout my opponent and respond appropriately. Neway how to you guys play it out, should keep making pheonixs, should you expand mass ground units.

[Stallion]

id add robo and another stargate asap. to try and win the phenox war cos if your win that you can control the game considering thier gas is in the same units and mass phenox hurts. also uprgades on air

maybe even range

[mGGAequitas]

basically you want to focus on getting as many phoenixes as possible so spend all your chronoboost on your phoenixes.

Make sure you don't lose your phoenixes and give him air superiority otherwise ur forced to transition out of phoenixes which puts you behind, especially since now he can freely pick off your probes.
So don't engage his phix's if he has more of them than you do.

If once your expansion is up and you are both still evenish on phoenixes get another stargate and keep pumping phix's until you manage to kill his phoenix's through better macro or micro (microing phix vs phix is so important, target fire, pull back and chasing) then you can stop making phix's and use however many you have left in sniping his probes while you transition into collossi or archons

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

Listen to this guy his PvP is sick good

[DUCKVILLELOL]

In terms of when you take your expo - with a standard phoenix opening you should send the first 2 maybe wait for the third (I do) and go scout what your opponent is doing - if you see them going nix as well take your expo IMMEDIATELY.

As you would know - given that expenditure is going into nix (150/100) you can freely take your nexus fast because... nix can't shoot buildings. Along with that fact; most players will only have a couple of ground units; maybe 2-3 zealots, a sentry or two depending on how safe they want to play - and a stalker or two. This type of force will elicit no pressure at all and can be easily deflected. If you are keeping your nix mobile and active you'll easily see if your opponent does 'well screw it' move and starts massing gateway units. You can cancel the nexus, or get an adequate defense up.

As for the actual strat you should use - as aquaman and stallion have mentioned you never really want to fall behind in Phoenix count, so chrono them out and in some cases get the second star and if you really feel it; get +1 weapons for nix.

I use phoenix builds almost exclusively in PvP these days; although I do things very differently to 'standard' and go for something a little more eccentric. See below (grab any of these replays to see what I do...)

http://drop.sc/replays?utf8=%E2%9C%9...=Apply+filters

[SLCNPezz]

Don't build a robo ever, just keep cranking out phoenixes and zealots etc. Be a bit aggressive with your phoenixes to keep an eye on his phoenix count, if it's dwindling be wary of dts and poke in his base a bit more. If you scout dts ofc go robo. Never expand, the only way you can expand is behind a forge and cannons or if you have somehow gained an advantage.

Quick Comments

	DUCKVILLELOL:	I really don't agree, there's no reason not to expand if you're both going phoenix.
	mGGAequitas:	^ what duck said, if they are going phix's it's safe to expand right away

[SLCNPezz]

sigh its not safe to expand at all if you're doing a phoenix mirror. You have exactly the same tech paths and unit count, where is your advantage coming from? The only advantage you have is phoenix rally time, that's not enough to justify 4 additional zealots within your opponent's army. If you want to try phoenix mirror against me that's fine, I will show you why you can't expand unless behind a forge. The timing will hit as your nexus finishes and you will be down 400 minerals worth of units, lose the fight and ultimately the game. Or else you can sit on your ramp and lose 400 minerals as he kills your nexus for free and takes his own expansion.

edit:

I've had so much discussion time with NA grandmaster phoenix users on this subject, it's not even debatable, nobody in high level play will take an expansion in a Stargate mirror unless you have either A) Gained some ground in the early game, or, B) Gotten a forge and cannons up before his push hits.

[xGKingdelete]

You Tube

You Tube

you might want to watch this, hero vs inori PvP (phoenix vs phoenix)

I think the best way is to spend all chrono on phoenix, go up to 4gates + stargate. If he doesn't do the same, go kill him.

Quick Comments

BearPack:

"H-to-the-Usky Husky". NOPE'd out of there! Good replay though :3

[SLCNPezz]

Originally Posted by SQL.delete

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61UACiK5Z_8

you might want to watch this, hero vs inori PvP (phoenix vs phoenix)

I think the best way is to spend all chrono on phoenix, go up to 4gates + stargate. If he doesn't do the same, go kill him.

YES! Great find!

[DUCKVILLELOL]

Originally Posted by pezzaperry

sigh its not safe to expand at all if you're doing a phoenix mirror. You have exactly the same tech paths and unit count, where is your advantage coming from? The only advantage you have is phoenix rally time, that's not enough to justify 4 additional zealots within your opponent's army. If you want to try phoenix mirror against me that's fine, I will show you why you can't expand unless behind a forge. The timing will hit as your nexus finishes and you will be down 400 minerals worth of units, lose the fight and ultimately the game. Or else you can sit on your ramp and lose 400 minerals as he kills your nexus for free and takes his own expansion.

edit:

I've had so much discussion time with NA grandmaster phoenix users on this subject, it's not even debatable, nobody in high level play will take an expansion in a Stargate mirror unless you have either A) Gained some ground in the early game, or, B) Gotten a forge and cannons up before his push hits.

"Where is your advantage coming from" - where is the disadvantage? If you have the same units... there is no disadvantage, it's fine to take the expo. I'll agree, yes certainly if you see that your opponent doesn't take theirs straight away too you'll obviously need to get some more expenditure going in your units instead of continuing to make probes (and yes, you'll likely need to make a small investment of 450 in forge/2 cannons) but this in no way is something that'll cause you to "ultimately" lose the game. If you are properly using your Phoenix and being active with them, you really shouldn't be blind-sided by someone who just attempts to 1 base bust. If it means losing 1 nix to scout what's coming, so be it. Better 1 nix dead than a game lost.

I know it sounds stupid but so many people even at a high level really don't understand how to play this particular style. You take the expo fast, put down a couple of cannons, and you'll be fine. On a map like Ohana sure you'll have a little more to contend with because of the second opening, but in the end it's not a big deal. Have a look at some of the replays in the link I posted before to see what I'm talking about.

As shieldz has pointed out though to directly answer the OP - you just need to stay ahead in nix count and you'll be fine.

[SLCNPezz]

Originally Posted by DUCKVILLELOL

"Where is your advantage coming from" - where is the disadvantage? If you have the same units... there is no disadvantage, it's fine to take the expo. I'll agree, yes certainly if you see that your opponent doesn't take theirs straight away too you'll obviously need to get some more expenditure going in your units instead of continuing to make probes (and yes, you'll likely need to make a small investment of 450 in forge/2 cannons) but this in no way is something that'll cause you to "ultimately" lose the game. If you are properly using your Phoenix and being active with them, you really shouldn't be blind-sided by someone who just attempts to 1 base bust. If it means losing 1 nix to scout what's coming, so be it. Better 1 nix dead than a game lost.

I know it sounds stupid but so many people even at a high level really don't understand how to play this particular style. You take the expo fast, put down a couple of cannons, and you'll be fine. On a map like Ohana sure you'll have a little more to contend with because of the second opening, but in the end it's not a big deal. Have a look at some of the replays in the link I posted before to see what I'm talking about.

As shieldz has pointed out though to directly answer the OP - you just need to stay ahead in nix count and you'll be fine.

I already stated that you CAN expand behind cannons in my first post - but this is a bit risky because if he hits while the cannons are building rather than after they finish you auto-lose. Also losing 1 phoenix in a phoenix mirror is really really really REALLY bad, I can't explain to you how bad it is, you've basically already lost (im talking when the phoenix count is around 5 and it's still 1 base game).

Also you do have a disadvantage... you put 400 minerals into something that won't help defend at all.

Also this blind-sided thing you're saying doesn't make sense, it doesn't matter whether you know he's 1 basing or not, you will lose to him every time if you put that nexus down. You have less units period, you can't hold it. The reason why you CAN expand in robo mirrors etc is because of the defenders advantage with SENTRIES, who work wonders against ground, and you can't get collosus out quick enough to punish a robo expand on one base. You can expand in blink obs mirrors because of the immortal rally time playing a crucial part in the battles, same with robo. With stargate this is completely different, you just can't expand, the rally time is negligible and forcefields don't do enough (plus u can't afford them due to gas constraints). I really want you guys to learn how stargate pvp works properly and it pains me to see people arguing because in this situation i just know im right, I've played stargate extensively in pvp and am quite good at the matchup.

You can play me whenever you want in customs, try expanding without a forge or even with a forge if you prefer, I'll kill you every time while the cannons are constructing or if u just didnt build cannons either way. It's not possible to expand in this situation unless you get an early advantage, either u tech to dts and kill probes or you kill some phoenix and decide you would rather expand than counter him etc.

Quick Comments

	Stallion:	this is pretty much why i don't play phenox styles
	DUCKVILLELOL:	Agree to disagree then I guess! :D

[Shieldz]

just make sure ur pheonix count needs to be higher than his

[ProAnnn]

I totally agree with pezzaperry. In phoenix mirrors NEVER EXPAND, unless he expand and you decide not to kill him(Which is retarded?). Just get higher phoenix count IF POSSIBLE, if not keep ur phoenix near ur stalkers so they dont get sniped for free. Try to push with a superior gateway count

[SLCNPezz]

yeah im coming off as extremely arrogant but i just really want to get my point across .

[inFeZa]

If you win the air battle, Great you're ahead!
If not... best thing is to forge down and expand. Watch out for 4gate Phoenix followups tho. Cannons are your friend here.

Quick Comments

EXCL:

i think this sums it up completely

[ProAnnn]

I'm only theorycrafting but i think it is possible to expand IF you open phoenix robo after getting like 2 immortals, as long as you focus fire the phoenixes lifting your immortals? Only theorycrafting though. Dont think too much about this

[Malice]

Phoenix vs Phoenix PvP is why I no longer use Phoenicia in the match up, I just suck, and lose one Phoenix, then I'm pretty much screwed. Though I did enjoy opening Phoenix to see a rushed one base colossus build, or even any robo build

[SmirkToT]

phoenix counters phoenix

Quick Comments

mGGAequitas:

mutual destruction!