[Satu]

I've recently tried practicing my ZvT and ZvP against computers set to very hard difficulty. All I can say is DAYMN. Their starting pushes are actually not the easiest things to hold off, and thats where I've had some trouble in league games. Im actually starting to think that computer opponents set to this difficulty are better than the guys I practice with for learning early game defence. What do you guys think, is it worth it trying to get good at beating computer opponents, set to hard difficulties, or have actual players?

Keep in mind Im still in bronze and 95% of the people I play against aren't that brilliant. My priority right now is to become a better player, and then move up in the leagues, not the other way around.

[ZergGirl]

I'd say only vs the computer if you want to try out a new build quickly and you want the best time on your end.
The problem with vsing AI is they are very predictable and you will learn all these funky computer timings by practising with them so much. (My little opinion ^^)

Since we are Zergbuddies I can help by watching a few replays. I could also play T or P and offer advice if you wanted it.

I really don't like people vsing the AI to improve xD so just message me anytime you feel like it :P

[PuppetMaster557]

If you want a real practice partner, just hit me up in game.
PuppetMaster.557

[ZergGirl]

Wow puppet! WOW.

[SkyBreaker]

Personally I never really practiced against the AI, purely because it'll always be scripted and thus, the same game-after-game, whereas playing against real-opponents (be it via custom games or on the ladder) was a much more intuitive learning curve.

You've got your priorities in-check, improving then progressing up the league is much better than using a "cheese" strategy to get into a league where you'll struggle against opponents.

Given that you play Zerg, my advice is to check-out Day [9]'s Drone Timing daily, from what I remember it was filled with useful advice for Zerg players. Other than that, feel free to add me in-game and I can give you some PvZ match-ups as practice

[Zeion]

on that note.. i played with SO MANY AI matches.. and they dun cheeze you.. lol.. maybe i am lucky.. but i nvr see a cannon rushing toss AI nor a 6 pooling zerg or a PF rush from terran... so.. it's not that good...

just for your info... i am a newbie... as in realli newbie at sc2.. and i can beat insane ai.. so.. it's not something really good to train against.. cos huamn players are unpredictable and make mistakes too =D

[StandBY]

lool i just tried a match against a very hard ai and wow, it totally caught me unprepared ahaha. their timed pushes seem a bit strange to what league players do. and their unit mixtures are.. weird also. lol

[Xeen]

I play against AI purely if I want to get comfortable executing a build order, but aside from that it's not the most useful thing because you need to prepare for specific things that humans do.

[nirvAnA]

unless ure a total beginner, imo dont play against AI, especially not the insane cpu (they mine double than you). Main reason is the bos are different so ur timings / game sense will be learnt wrongly

just play in the practise league or join some random custom games, a human player is always better practise and at least theres some interaction like asking him to play with u more.

[Satu]

Yeah, thats generally what I was thinking, timings.

Otherwise I've found some good experience in it, just trying to hold onto my natural expansion when quick expanding as a zerg. Even if I know they are coming at the same time every time, I sometimes struggle holding the natural expo which is a bit worrying. However, I managed to win heaps of games today and almost made it into silver league (It began to match me vs silver league players, but didnt end up putting me up there because I got proxy'd by a protoss).

It helps me understand what I can make to stop early protoss aggression and when to make it, but its a bad habit to know exactly when to make stuff. Kinda reminds me of the broodwar computers, I'd just make mutalisk guardian in the lategame and it would own them EVERY time. They would never come up with anything to counter it, no matter which race it was. But I never really tried it in an actual game, mainly because I didnt want my clan calling me a noob after being killed by timing pushes or whatevs.

Edit: Oh, btw, Im not posting this because I have a lack of training partners, Im just pondering the usefulness. I'll add any willing training partners anyway :P

[PapaBigBelly]

Just go to a custom game :P its automatic practise already.

Computers always do a push of units some point between early and late. So they are Very Predictable.

Computer Very Hard is actually relatively easy honestly. Its just computer INSANE!
I tried going ZvZ against insane, I barely held the first push off but then got swept by the second attack :P

I agree with Nirvana, a human player is always definately better

[SkyBreaker]

Not a constructive post... but I literally lol'd when I read the above poster's name

[SystemZer0]

I find very hard AI a grood prac for a few things, they mine @ 5 minerals per run, its only insane comp that mines at 7 units per run.

Anyways, its good for

1. FE build, you know the comp will att you before FE, so if u can hold it off, you can hold off a players
2. Early harass, u can bet that the comp is gonna have more units that u, its actually hard to do the early marine+ghost against a comp.

[Satu]

Originally Posted by SystemZer0

I find very hard AI a grood prac for a few things, they mine @ 5 minerals per run, its only insane comp that mines at 7 units per run.

Anyways, its good for

1. FE build, you know the comp will att you before FE, so if u can hold it off, you can hold off a players
2. Early harass, u can bet that the comp is gonna have more units that u, its actually hard to do the early marine+ghost against a comp.

Yes, but I think the negatives outweight the positives now. You know the timing every time they attack, so with me being a zerg, there is always going to be an optimal amount of drones I can make in order to have a large enough army to defend as well as being ahead in economy. Thats a bad habit to get into for me, as zerg is a reactionary race. I cannot decide in a ladder game to get X amount of drones every game, I have to decide in game, as I see the builds the opponent is going.

I also disagree with your first point, for what I said above. There are too many variables. What if the player comes to attack, then pulls away realising you're prepared? What if the player's timing is way different than a computer's? What if they go for a different army composition than what you're used to? What if, what if, what if.

As for your second point, yet again from a zerg perspective, I once tried doing rushes on the ladder and lost like 9 times in a row. So I decided that I just sucked at rushing and didnt try it again for a fair while. But then I played vs insane AI trying to sixpool the AI. I persisted until I found out that the insane AI gets additional income, but almost beat the insane AI a few times. Now when I sixpool, Im usually very effective. I've won the last five games I've sixpooled in ladder, where I just attack, and pull back after doing enough damage to get me ahead macro-wise.

Basically, it won't give you good habits for playing the game against real opponents, but it will help you practice builds to maximize your efficiency while using them.

[PantlessPete]

Forget the computer, its not worth your time. If you want to test out a build order, or against a build order, try YABOT. You can tell the AI to go a certain build against you, and it will do it then attack you. It uses a more hard/realistic (and not cheating) AI called GreenTea, so it's decent.

Of course the BO it will perform and the time it attacks is static, so you'll quickly learn the timings, but its good to get a feel of the matchup. You think you can squeeze out +1 and enough defenses before the 4gate hits you, but can't do it right yet? Keep practicing till you know the build inside and out! (you can use '-r' in chat to restart the round to save time too).

I sit and practice new BOs for an hour or two till I have them in my head, and go back and try them out again without notes the next day etc.

[Elysdeon]

I use the very hard computer as Terran to practice holding of an MM push as a Toss. I must say its pretty good practice. The V hard computer comes at around 7.30 - 8 mins with a respectable MM force. I got stomped a few times but finally got used to the forcefield placements while warping in more forces to hold the push. Not bad practice.

[Xed]

Regarding battling against AI's, if you think you're still lacking in your fundamentals, go ahead and rack up those practice games. It's important though that in the games, you should focus on improving your fundamentals and not getting the easy win on the AI -- don't cheese. If you really want to be a better player, focus on constant worker and unit production, always looking at the minimap, scouting and keeping your resources low. You can refine these things in AI games. I think it's commendable that you prioritize being a better player before wanting the rise the ladders. Nice! Goodluck.

P.S. AI is weaker than people. It's because, as many have said, they're predictable but also because they do not adopt their game as well as people do.

[dennistoo]

need a prac partner? pm me too.

play with insane AI more.

DennisToo.983

[Aean(:]

Not worth playing against AI, everything after normal AI has faster income gain then you and on normal difficulty they cant even macro properly. Also all bots attack at a similar time so ;/ Eg. you can leave 1 unit proxied at their base, when the push comes at your front, attack their base with 1 unit and the WHOLE army turns around. Its stupid.

[Makra]

Yeah it's not that great to play against AI, but I have to point out that the AI isn't always so predictable. I used to play against AI a fair bit to get build orders down etc, and against terran sometimes it would surprise me with a reaper rush, or their timing push would come a bit earlier or later than usual. Also I'm pretty sure it's only Insane AI that harvests income faster than you.

I'm curious if any of you have beaten insane terran as zerg, going for an FE. I recently tried a few different builds (pool first/hatch first etc) on the longest rush distance maps against Insane terran, and boy, that is the definition of OP in my eyes. No idea how to beat that.

[cruxis]

I think it's great training for mechanics.

If you know what the AI is doing, then you don't have to focus so much on scouting, but rather keeping your injects timed properly and keeping your income low. These things are the absolute fundamentals, and learning them should be prioritised over a build order or memorising timings.

[NvPinder]

tbh practicing stuff like drilling out a new build against the AI is incredibly useful, i've actually done this a TON of times when coming up with new stuff.

edit: by this i mean a computer on very easy so he doesnt attack you, getting cheesed by the very hard AI probably doesnt hold any merit for anyone diamond and above as you can find humans to do stronger cheeses against you instead.

[tin]

only play against computers for build orders and refine mechanics but always better to practice with someone if possible