[Maro]

Please stop making void rays. Thank you.

I'm Bronze, nowhere ranked near the top of my division and everytime I play against Protoss I'm left to reel by the sheer brilliance of the mass Void Ray's blinding light, as they dance around my tanks, marines and vikings.

I'm pretty sure my units were scrambling to alert me of these fatal lights by these awesome flying machine, but I guess they were left stunned and ran over in no time at all.

Ok, so the thing is, I can't seem to get a decent solution to even hold out to counter a mass Void Ray build (of which I admit by the time I realise that my opponent is churning out Void Rays faster than I can even spell Battle Cruisers, it's a little to late to respond to it).

So let's say I had ample time to prepare and counter, and at the same time facing a decent army of Zealots and Stalkers as well, how'd you (oh dear mighty Terrans) go about doing it? Consider it as a mid-game situation question and where we're all massing our armies -- so ignore any cheese and those things, ty~.

[NvPinder]

if they aren't getting either collosi or templar, and are just going mass gate units + voidrays, or mass voids + a few gateway units, stim marine + medivac + ghosts will seriously rip their shit up.

I seriously doubt your problem is what units you're building tho, upload a replay and i guarantee there's some serious mechanics issues that are preventing you from beating the other bronze players that just mass voids.

[GFree]

Okay, please stop using Banshees. =p

Though seriously if you see a Stargate, stick to Bio with more Reactor Barracks. Thors have terrible DPS against armored air units, and in large amounts, even Vikings will lose to Void Rays so investing in Starports isn't the answer, also Vikings lose to equal numbers of Phoenixes.

It may seem lacking in grandeur, but stimmed Marines will rape Void Rays, as long as you only blow your stim when you're running into a fight. Marine-Medivac and perhaps some upgrades, or as JPMoney suggested, Ghosts to help spend your gas and use the Tech Lab where you got Stim from. Also, If the Toss went Stargate, they don't have detection. You could Nuke em for kicks.

Replay would be good cos scouting, macro, positioning and expanding (this one is strongly affected by the first two) contribute significantly to a loss.

[flatline]

Having touble with Protoss? Try my 4 minute PvT timing push:

06 Start scouting on 4 spawn maps
10 Supply Depot
11 Barracks
12 Refinery
14 Barracks -> 1 Marine
16 Tech Lab -> Supply Depot -> Marauder + Marine -> Concussive Shell

Push into P with 2 Marines and 1 Marauder <- 4 minute point
Rally the Barracks into P's base, keep building marines, marauders, SVCs

...

Research Stim-Pack when you have 100 minerals+gas left over from a building cycle of Marine/Marauder/SCV

Build more barracks with Tech-Labs and expand when money allows.

This push will throw most Protoss players off kilter, if not make them quit outright after they lose a handful of probes/structures. Focus on the defenders, then go for their pylons. If they send their probes after you, keep kiting - don't stand and fight.

The rest... I think the above posters have gotten it pretty much covered.

Disclaimer: Though I said "my" I'm pretty sure other smart cookies have thought of it as well. Having said that, I didn't rip this off some poor sod's guide - this is 100% original =p.

Anyway, good luck in your climb from Bronze; I can sympathise, me: (copper in beta, lol) Silver -> Diamond(1850). With more experience I'm sure you'll ascend the ladder

[GFree]

Originally Posted by flatline

Having touble with Protoss? Try my 4 minute PvT timing push:

06 Start scouting on 4 spawn maps
10 Supply Depot
11 Barracks
12 Refinery
14 Barracks -> 1 Marine
16 Tech Lab -> Supply Depot -> Marauder + Marine -> Concussive Shell

Push into P with 2 Marines and 1 Marauder <- 4 minute point
Rally the Barracks into P's base, keep building marines, marauders, SVCs

Yeah this is real good, seen it before but yeah it's REALLY effective and at low levels they just don't use Forcefields enough, which is the only easy and safe way to deal with this. I can vouch that they'll usually have only a Zealot and a Stalker, possibly a Sentry if they Chronoboosted the Gateway. If they went 1 Gate tech, this has a high chance to kill them outright.

[Elysdeon]

A simple bio ball will destroy P early enough before they can afford to mass void rays. Unless they wall off their front with cannons or the like then do a MMM drop from the back and they get destroyed again. Just toss a quick orbital scan after your first MULE to get a rough idea of what they are teching / doing.

[Xeen]

Marines beat VRs by cost.

You need to scout and have an idea that it's coming - a P on one base for so long implies some sort of tech rush. 1 base colossus is pretty awful so this usually means Council tech (dts/blink or charge), or Voids. The common trend in all of them is the bulk of their units are gateway units. As JP says, if you have EMP and medivacs (or even just stim), you win.

Just don't burn out all your scans in case it's DTs, since they can proxy stuff.

[Maro]

Being Bronze, my macro and scouting, oh so naturally, is suspect and it's definitely a high priority & key area which I'm working at, so that's a possible factor in those losses as well.

But instead of witch-hunting within me, my purpose of this post is to gather intel on what is best in gearing up towards a counter, or soft counter, in a situation where you scouted a build up of Void Rays. (Of course, ideally is to scout early and spot the build or kill off the Protoss player early, but we're not talking that strategy route, but rather just a how-to deal with Void Rays.)

I think GFree called it best with the Stim upgrades, as my MMM Ball were unstimmed (not researched!) back then (in my earlier battles) -- and thanks for that!

But thanks to all who chipped in with their replies, it's all still highly educational nevertheless.

---

Ok I did thought about it but decided to go against -- that is to get Ports and churn Vikings when I see them getting the Void Rays, because I figured that if he already has a headstart, I shouldn't try to go and catch up on him, right? So I went MMM.. and I guess the non-existant Stim was my undoing..

I'll juz crawl back under my bed for now..

[UnFoly]

get a few turrets, it stops P air play and dt rushes which are as dangerous to T

[Mukade]

You are bronze. Your problem is therefore almost entirely macro, most likely.

[Maro]

Thanks for the honest and brutal assessment of my predicament Mukade, it sure detracted from the intel (such as GFREE's and Xeen's post) that I was hoping to gather, but I'd sure love a pie on my face indeed -- who wouldn't, thanks!

And Unfoly, thanks but I'm kind of against investing heavily on a static defence with turrets (which is nearly an AA solution always).

Btw, I tried going Marines and Stim and they kinda worked pretty good in holding up a Void Ray's, and giving the Protoss a reason to turn around for a while. Going bio is good after all!

[Dogsi]

Originally Posted by Maro

Thanks for the honest and brutal assessment of my predicament Mukade, it sure detracted from the intel (such as GFREE's and Xeen's post) that I was hoping to gather, but I'd sure love a pie on my face indeed -- who wouldn't, thanks!

And Unfoly, thanks but I'm kind of against investing heavily on a static defence with turrets (which is nearly an AA solution always).

Btw, I tried going Marines and Stim and they kinda worked pretty good in holding up a Void Ray's, and giving the Protoss a reason to turn around for a while. Going bio is good after all!

While you may not like that answer, he is most definitely right. If your mm fell to voidrays it's because you didn't have enough. A fully charged voidray will fall to equal value marines with out stim. 5 marines (not even counting the gas cost of the voidray) will kill a fully charged voidray. The stim is mainly to get there before he runs away.

[Maro]

Originally Posted by Dogsi

While you may not like that answer, he is most definitely right..

Actually I liked the answer. It's apt for anyone who wants to get better in the game (such as myself). It was naked truth that a better Macro is the answer. Oh, it's also an answer applies just as well to these following questions:

a) How do I beat a swift Stalker army?
b) How do I beat a scary Hydra army?
c) How do I beat a suave MMM ball?

.. and so on.

Anyone can give a generic answer, and 'better macro' is a generic solution, which doesn't specify you should be getting what type of army composition, what upgrades, how to engage and such.'

It's the excruciating details like 'once you spot stargate, you can expect a void rush so get a bit more marines and tech up Stim' is a more specific reply, which a Terran can definitely utilise, and it's pretty awesome that GFREE, among others, gave a reply that's specific.

In any case, I got a few more games under my belt and it turns out that Vikings are turning to be a viable solution to Void Rays. A couple of games I did my normal game, and also to tech up to a Reactor-ed Starport and as it turns out, my vikings are viable soft counters of the Void Rays.

Vikings costs about half of a Void Ray, Takes faster to churn out (especially with the Reactors) and is good against Armored air units (like Void Rays), and once they're done with protecting the skies, they can double as scouts/harass/backup ground unit.

Oh, and of course, to better macro well to get those Vikings out nicely.

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Maro

Anyone can give a generic answer, and 'better macro' is a generic solution, which doesn't specify you should be getting what type of army composition, what upgrades, how to engage and such.'

I get what you mean, but what he was trying to impress on you is that if you just make a ton of stuff, a lot of the other points won't matter at your level because you can 1a units and still win.

The problem is that you don't know the methods of macroing which diamond+ would take for granted, so what would be best is if someone (a T) posted an opening for you to follow - or if you found one amongst the extensive resources available online, and worked at refining it.

[Ryukku]

the reason many people are telling u macro macro or a generic answer is because SC2 is not a simple equation like marines > lings > marauders > stalkers > marines. theres alot of variability to a "voidray army" is it a rush? or is it a late game composition? what other units are there? etc.

but the easiest thing to do is just stimmed marines. it can help u against the ground army and still take out void rays. to handle a decent zealot/stalker army is getting a bunker at your ramp. everything else depends alot on what is happening in the game.

[Mukade]

Yeah mate, you just need to work from the bottom up. Better to get your foundations strong (basic macro) before going up into crazy micro and unit composition.

[Cordance]

With out seeing a replay of your games I would strongly suspect the problem is you arnt attacking. Playing in bronze myself I can tell you that is the number one failing of all bronze players on SEA. Most players on SEA have a general understanding of what they are meant to do, and even build orders about doing it (at least by the time they reach a site like this). One of the key problems with most build orders for bronze to follow is they dont end with attack with X or at timing Y. This lets people playing against them expand like mad and over run them with what ever unit they want.

Watch your replays again and see A how many base they have. B How many attacks you made. C With the numbers and cost if they had been stalkers and zealots would you have felt like you had a chance. (about 3-4 units per void ray).

[divinesage]

OP, upload your replay. It's easier to identify where your mistakes are when we are able to watch them.

[Maro]

@Xeen: Indeed! Mass wins most of the time, and good Macro = good mass. Btw I'm not looking for an opening, but rather the ways that a person would react once they see Void Rays coming up.

@Ryukyu: I tried stimmed marines and they worked brilliant as well (with good mass).

@Mukade: Working up like crazy. >.< Still only on my 32nd Bronze league games with plenty of room to improve.

@Cordance: I used to attack early, with a measly units and found out that by the time they've reached their target, that amount is now underpowered. Bad timing then, but lately I'm trying to be the agressor in most of my games, at the same time getting the hang of a timing push. Like what you said, making the enemy afraid of expanding can be beneficial for one's Macro advantage.

Guys, thanks again and I'm really grateful for all replies, and at this point of time I'd have to say what a beast good Macro is, and while I gracefully hold off my thoughts on 'How do I Macro like Jinro/QXC?" with a new thread, allow me to summarise this thread's gist:

Boy sees Void Rays. Boy reacts with Stim Research + Marines, in moderation. Or Boy can also react with Vikings, in moderation.

[polenykes]

Glad you found the solution.
I laughed when i read this because i stopped ever going voids against terran pretty much because marines are scary

[rezyn8]

One good way to practice terran macro from a bronze level is to play the 'Opening Gambit' challenge. Really good for terrans and is solely focused on macro - a with the odd battle here and there.

[user151]

Originally Posted by rezyn8

One good way to practice terran macro from a bronze level is to play the 'Opening Gambit' challenge. Really good for terrans and is solely focused on macro - a with the odd battle here and there.

Is that the one where you have to make ghost/tanks and rines? I cheated thru those challenges... like building a PF for zealot rush and just leapfrop those PFs. May be that's why my macro/micro still sucks.

[DrunkPanda]

1. Teching to mass void rays means prone to early aggresion. Take advantage of that
2. Stim marines are good
3. Possible vikings but im not sure about that
4. Don't let them tech to void rays

[CagnacciKid]

The 'soft' counter to Void Rays seems to be numbers. Really, mass anything that can shoot them will hurt them, as they are the kind of unit meant for taking down single, elite targets one at a time.

[inFeZa]

I make void rays against terran when i see marauders.

and i hate marauders