[kookielah]

So I found this on teamliquid today is any one else aware of this or have any idea why they would do this it seems kind of silly.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...ic_id=305716#3

[FaDeBadger]

From a strictly viewer standpoint it makes sense. A barcraft has a few hundred people watching 1 stream. Meaning for every ad they run they get 1 view. Numerous barcrafts would cost them a lot of money.

Whether they should try and ban them is another story though.

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by FaDeBadger

From a strictly viewer standpoint it makes sense. A barcraft has a few hundred people watching 1 stream. Meaning for every ad they run they get 1 view. Numerous barcrafts would cost them a lot of money.

Whether they should try and ban them is another story though.

I was actually thinking about this a while ago: from an e-sports growth perspective, barcrafts are good: but from GOMTV's perspective, they are 'losing' viewer numbers, which are a statistic that they can use to entice sponsors in. It's a really weird issue: perhaps they will have to start selling a different premium for barcraft, much how PPVs can be sold to a single person, or to an establishment (see: UFC being shown in a sports club).

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

HAHA ME FIRST!!!

[nirvAnA]

They do it because GOMTv loses money when all these people are watching in bars instead of subscribing to them - and the people who "profit" are the bars and viewers. Its kinda like how bars have to pay extra to broadcast EPL matches in Singapore or other premium content cause it attracts more customers. And its quite unfair to "GomTV" if you stood back and viewed it purely from a business point of view, so yea i can understand their decision.

We have been enjoying a "free run" for awhile now, unfortunately i don't think it will last forever However, I hope the only parties affected are the Bars (who need to pay more) and not the viewers but of course that sucks because these Bars will want to host less events.

Update: I actually think barcrafts help give alot of exposure to Blizzard and GOMTV which bring in more revenue for both if new people start playing sc2 /subscribing to GOMTV, come to think of it, its basically a form of advertising at a super cheap cost. The cost is the revenue "lost" from the bar not paying any fees.

[Asrathiel]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

They do it because GOMTv loses money when all these people are watching in bars instead of subscribing to them

Surely it's just the viewer numbers for the particular games being shown at the Barcraft though, not the actual ticket sales... people who are likely to buy season tickets are hardly going to decide not to just because a few event during the year are Barcrafted...

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by Asrathiel

Surely it's just the viewer numbers for the particular games being shown at the Barcraft though, not the actual ticket sales... people who are likely to buy season tickets are hardly going to decide not to just because a few event during the year are Barcrafted...

But viewer numbers, especially averaged ones, affect advertising revenue.

Quick Comments

Mayo:

[ROOT`iaguz]

That's ridiculous. The amount of exposure to SC2 that barcrafts have generated offsets the reduced stream viewings. How many goddamn NEWSPAPER articles have we seen about this sort of thing? Bugger 'em, go out and drink/watch (and having gone to one of these myself it's far better then just chilling at home on Teamspeak)

Quick Comments

Asrathiel:

Definitely. Overall benefits for eSports in general far outwiegh any negatives GOM might see

[mGGDrGooSe]

Maybe if GomTV had a stream that actually worked I would care about their problems? I agree that logically bars should be paying for a premium stream. I would have imagined the same laws governing bars showing sports events on TV covered internet as well. If not, I'm sure the loophole will be plugged eventually. Now even if this premium stream is $200/night, the bars will still come out way ahead.

[Maynarde]

Barcrafts will continue imo, they are just WAY too fun.

I kind of agree with tgun here, I see perhaps GOM will be looking into a PPV options for venues. It does SO many great things for interest in eSports by having barcrafts.

Originally Posted by Drgoose

Maybe if GomTV had a stream that actually worked I would care about their problems?

Their stream has always been perfect for me, and I live in the desert that is South Australia. Maybe you should get a better connection

[kookielah]

I just hope that barcrafts don't stop it seems like an awesome idea even though I've never been to one.

[Bash]

Well blizz loves them apparently, so i'd say the most gom can do is make it cost more for Bars to do them, which is up to them to implement i guess.
Barcrafts wont be dying anytime soon, if there was a serious problem blizz wouldnt be praising them.

Also that thread is abouta barcraft in seoul, i'd assume they want people actually going to the studio and seeing the games.

[mGGDrGooSe]

@ Erasmus, when the NRL does it's advertising numbers, it takes into account average attendances at bars, etc. Gom can do the same. Certainly harder to do because of the international nature and because it's still emerging and therefore fluctuating, but having numbers that you can inflate to 'be on the safe side' is an advantage to gom when dealing with advertisers.

@Maynarde, I've refused to buy tickets to gom because all I ever hear, including in the chat here, is 'gom player isnt working for me again.' I also have a moral problem with them telling me what software I can and can't use to watch my content. If they had a proper stream through a website, I would probably buy it.

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by Drgoose

@Maynarde, I've refused to buy tickets to gom because all I ever hear, including in the chat here, is 'gom player isnt working for me again.' I also have a moral problem with them telling me what software I can and can't use to watch my content. If they had a proper stream through a website, I would probably buy it.

If you get a ticket that allows you to watch VODs, then that solves your stream / moral issues But yeah, then it's not a stream obviously.

[Dox]

Yeah it's a bit silly really. I don't think Gom realises that 10,000 people will attend barcraft events around the world for a code S final, then go home, and immediately buy a yearly subscription.

Quick Comments

Zepph:

indeed

[foxmeep]

Originally Posted by Dox

Yeah it's a bit silly really. I don't think Gom realises that 10,000 people will attend barcraft events around the world for a code S final, then go home, and immediately buy a yearly subscription.

Exactly. And I'd be sure that at least 50% of people attending barcraft already have a subscription anyways. Maybe if GOMTV didn't have ridiculously overpriced subscription fees for a low quality stream that is unreliable at best, they'd have some grounds to stand on. But as it stands, GOMTV just being greedy as usual.

[x5_Bard]

Well I for one have never had any problems with goms stream or the gomtv software. The software is free so I'm honestly astounded at your point of view.

GOM might also want to look at the number of viewers it loses from sub par casting when tastosis isnt around. When I see moletrap and russian dude casting ill just go to bed and watch the vods muted.

[breadfan]

Money grubbing Gom execs! Pure craziness

[kookielah]

haha moletrap is a bit hard to watch I don't mind khaldor though

[Jaywalk]

barcraft licence from gom maybe?

[xpaperclip]

The question is really, do they only want Barcraft in Seoul to stop, or everywhere.

If it is everywhere, then perhaps it doesn't make a whole lot of sense from a business perspective, except from the reduction in apparent viewer numbers. After all, the only hard statistics they can present sponsors are viewer numbers.

On the other hand, if they are only trying to stop Seoul Barcrafts, then it makes a lot of sense, because they want those people on site instead, especially for finals. I think I have read that watching GSL inside Korea is free, so I don't think it is a revenue raising exercise.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

good point! to confess i did not open the link in the OP lol i should next time

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by xpaperclip

The question is really, do they only want Barcraft in Seoul to stop, or everywhere.

If it is everywhere, then perhaps it doesn't make a whole lot of sense from a business perspective, except from the reduction in apparent viewer numbers. After all, the only hard statistics they can present sponsors are viewer numbers.

On the other hand, if they are only trying to stop Seoul Barcrafts, then it makes a lot of sense, because they want those people on site instead, especially for finals. I think I have read that watching GSL inside Korea is free, so I don't think it is a revenue raising exercise.

They don't charge admission to the Makdong studio and space is limited. They don't make advertising from the spectators either.

But if they ban barcrafts, why not ban spectators at their events? Same logic.

[EsKy]

Just because people are watching some barcraft does not mean they haven't bought a season ticket. Furthermore it in no way impacts the viewership in terms of advertising dollars. Seems silly.

[Uglymutt]

Having bought a HQ stream because I went to a barcraft and saw how much better the premium stream was, I can say it's probably gaining a lot more exposure for GOM.

[inFeZa]

It's GOMTv's loss,
but what i think is that its more encouraging to go to the barcraft than to the live event in Seoul, and GOMTV wants people to attend the actual event instead so they fill out the place, i mean, how bad would it look if no1 is there and everyone is at a barcraft.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

excellent point!

[cure]

Originally Posted by SQLTt.inFeZa

It's GOMTv's loss,
but what i think is that its more encouraging to go to the barcraft than to the live event in Seoul, and GOMTV wants people to attend the actual event instead so they fill out the place, i mean, how bad would it look if no1 is there and everyone is at a barcraft.

People would still go to the actual event to see the players though, don't forget that the players are celebrities in Korea.

[mGGDaedalus]

It doesn't make sense to ban them for ticket sales when it's free to attend the studio, and as far as I know it's free to watch GOMTV stream in Korea anyway. Maybe if they sold alcohol at the GOMTV studio more people would go there

[Daboo]

You can understand how it's an immediate loss for gomtv, but this important for e-sports to grow, and when it does, they'll probably benefit in the long run.

Wonder how TV channels show their numbers to sponsors? A lot of sport is watched in pub(understandable, why would you want to watch a game alone when you can watch them with friends..just more fun).

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by Daboo

You can understand how it's an immediate loss for gomtv, but this important for e-sports to grow, and when it does, they'll probably benefit in the long run.

Wonder how TV channels show their numbers to sponsors? A lot of sport is watched in pub(understandable, why would you want to watch a game alone when you can watch them with friends..just more fun).

TV stations are in the opposite position - they are established and have their set timeslot advertising prices based on demand. They don't have to justify anything to advertisers (who aren't really 'sponsors').

[syfChadMann]

Hmmm.. While I agree, Barcrafts are great. whether to allow them or not should depend on the growth position of GOM. If they are growing, Barcrafts are a great opportunity to gain further exposure to their services. However, one could argue that everyone that attends BarCraft, usually are aware of GOM and the services they provide. Although, if GOM are in a plateau stage or decline in the viewership, BarCrafts are a detriment to their bottom line and I totally agree that the viewer ship should be via some sort of premium subscription for public broadcasts. Its only fair - the bars make alot of money from the BarCraft, and it costs them nothing. Usually a community member approaches the bar to host it, they also provide a laptop or two and someone with a HD subscription to GOM.

I think GOM needs to develop a public package for individuals that wish to host BarCrafts, make them pay a $1000 annual fee, but provided them with some cheerfuls and them, bangy stick things.... even get a shout out from Tastosis if your hosting an official BarCraft..

Also, that thread, is about a guy that hosts BarCrafts IN Seoul.. where, perhaps GOM has their own events?.. idk..

[Asrathiel]

Originally Posted by Drgoose

when the NRL does it's advertising numbers, it takes into account average attendances at bars, etc. Gom can do the same. Certainly harder to do because of the international nature and because it's still emerging and therefore fluctuating, but having numbers that you can inflate to 'be on the safe side' is an advantage to gom when dealing with advertisers.

Surely they could, as others have said, have a package for public viewing type things, and request that the organisers report attendance numbers back to them...

Has anyone actually seem anything from GOM on the subject, or just the guy from TL gong 'oh I got an email'...

[ikki]

Can someone link me to the official statement from GOM?
All I found was the TL link to some random in a forum saying he got an email from gom...

[crAzerk]

I don't think GOM has made any such announcement have they?
It seems like if they wanted to it would have to be a more definitive message, like saying bar craft IS banned, and before that they would have To go thru the respective legislative procedures.. Which is prob complicated as hell? -shrugs

[ikki]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

I don't think GOM has made any such announcement have they?
It seems like if they wanted to it would have to be a more definitive message, like saying bar craft IS banned, and before that they would have To go thru the respective legislative procedures.. Which is prob complicated as hell? -shrugs

Not that I can find, seems like something that would be impossible to police.
I remember ages on on tl a thread saying that blizz was going to license bars to play it blizz came out saying they wouldn't, it was about trademarking the name to protect it; http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=268091

[Frogmite]

They can stop us to make barcraft but they can't stop the cool dog.

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by Frogmite

They can stop us to make barcraft but they can't stop the cool dog.

Since people seem to love their dubstep and shit on pro streams... I propose a new initiative, Clubcraft. Now you can go clubbing and watch a massive projector streaming sc2 while grinding on the dance floor.

Quick Comments

	iMSystem:	'Shit'
	syfChadMann:	I guess System isn't coming... ClubCraft ftwe

[myth_au]

There are numerous reasons for this and alot of it has been summarised above.

I do want to add one last thing as well. The reason GomTV is against it is for commercial reasons and also from a LEGAL REASON.

Anyone who hosts a barcraft should be aware that they are breaching the license agreement given by gomtv when you sign up. It isnt for personal/private use, using it in a bar becomes public and you are one breaching the agreement and secondly you are infringing the copyright of the broadcast.

There are case law on this and i would be extremely cautious to anyone who considers hosting a barcraft without the appropriate license from GomTV. I would also be extremely cautious as the venue (bar) because they could be considered for secondary infringement. You need not look far then the free mp3 downloads case in australia.

Any bar, food court, shopping centres etc that play music and broadcast always pays some license/royalty fee to someone (usually APRA/AMCOS for music). Otherwise they would be sued for infringement.

South Korea is against infringement and counterfeiting big time. When you got to korea and you have to till out a declaration saying you have no goods that infringement any IP.

So yea. Also Australia is also usually very owners of IP. again lots of technology cases out there now.

[Frogmite]

Actually for the Barcraft we did in Singapore we were watching MLG.

I promise it's my last meme

[ikki]

Originally Posted by myth_au

There are numerous reasons for this and alot of it has been summarised above.

I do want to add one last thing as well. The reason GomTV is against it is for commercial reasons and also from a LEGAL REASON.

Anyone who hosts a barcraft should be aware that they are breaching the license agreement given by gomtv when you sign up. It isnt for personal/private use, using it in a bar becomes public and you are one breaching the agreement and secondly you are infringing the copyright of the broadcast.

There are case law on this and i would be extremely cautious to anyone who considers hosting a barcraft without the appropriate license from GomTV. I would also be extremely cautious as the venue (bar) because they could be considered for secondary infringement. You need not look far then the free mp3 downloads case in australia.

Any bar, food court, shopping centres etc that play music and broadcast always pays some license/royalty fee to someone (usually APRA/AMCOS for music). Otherwise they would be sued for infringement.

South Korea is against infringement and counterfeiting big time. When you got to korea and you have to till out a declaration saying you have no goods that infringement any IP.

So yea. Also Australia is also usually very owners of IP. again lots of technology cases out there now.

They're only asking not to show the gomtv.net version of the stream, AKA the english stream, because SC2 is rated 18+ in Korea.
To even stream the GSL, they have to use the 12+ version, reduced violence and gore effects, etc. So if the korean goverment hears that koreans can watch the english stream in Korea in all its bloody glory, they'll force GOM to IP ban korea for the english and slap a heavy fine.


@myth: Can you link to the law case ? Or where people get the license from gom for barcraft?

[myth_au]

First thing, this is not legal advice.

Cases relating to public venue and authorising copyright infringement see Australasian Performing Right Assn Ltd v Miles [1962] NSWR 405. Pretty much this cases was about playing music without a lincense at a hall.

The free mp3 case is the cooper case Universal Music Australia Pty Ltd v Cooper [2005] FCA 972.

There is currently proceedings in the Federal Court relating online streaming, which is interesting hoping the judgment is out this year (most likely at the end).

GOMTV's terms and condtions are here http://www.gomtv.net/support/terms.gom

I havent read or reviwed the t&c in great detail but i havent seen any compnay give redtribution rights away for free. usually the licenes are for private use. Same as when you buy a DVD or music cd. its for private use.

[ikki]

Originally Posted by myth_au

I havent read or reviwed the t&c.

Can you review something you haven't read? tldr jkjk

I'll keep my mouth shut till I hear something from official from gom.

[myth_au]

As a solicitor though if i was GOMTV i'd b suing =P.

Must set an example. hahah. I'd b suing the bar owners! They got money and should know better.

[dippa]

The logic that barcraft's lose GOMTV money is incredibly short-sighted.

a) People aren't going to a Barcraft every time the GSL is streamed
b) The atmosphere of a Barcraft encourages more people to buy passes to watch the GSL
c) Barcraft increases interest in Starcraft 2 in general, which in turn increases the prospect for GOMTV acquiring new sponsors as the ROI on SC2 improves
d) Barcraft events help other events - a successful event for GOMTV in Korea could then help boost the prospects for a Barcraft watching, say, MLG, which could then increase viewer interest in the Koreans (and by extension, GSL)

sighsighsighsighsigh@GOM logic

The only plausible thing I've heard is that rebroadcasts of GOM are illegal in Korea, but that's unconfirmed.

[crAzerk]

I think Frogmite's picture warrants a repost

[rezyn8]

Barcrafts generally look at presenting the final - not the entire competition.