[Next_rim]

It doesn't look like blizz is doing anything to bring more variety to PvP.

I've spent the past month playing non-standard PvP, had some success, but generally my pvp w/l ratio is pretty bad. Anything you do in PvP revolves around 4wpgt. Whether you do it yourself, or you try to delay it, or you try to beat it w/o goign 4wpgt yourself.

Let's start with a list of tactics that are commonly used in PvP.

4 wpgt - by far, the most standard and successful build. You get a good unit count and can put stupid pressure on your enemy. 90% chances are you will be facing another 4wpgt, so it all comes down to how well you micro. It is also boring as hell. You don't expand because it's an all-inish build. Your opp doesn't expand because he can't. In most pvps, people stay on 1 base till main is mined out. Which is fail design by blizz, imo. I hate 4wpgt.

3 gate blink. Designed to repel 13-gate 4wpgt. Nuff said. Nice and cool, except for it is same micro intensive stalker vs stalker brawl, and it doesn't work vs 12-gate, because it comes way before your blink is done. In addition, you have less units, and the other player can afford waaay more mistakes. Might as well go 4wpgt to

Gate-robo-gate-gate - designed to repel stalker 4wpgt with early immortals. Immortal pops exactly at the same time 5 stalkers and a zealot arrive. So you have to ff and micro like pro. If you hold the initial wave, you have huge tech advantage. Same micro intensive D at your base. Might as well go 4-gate, at least it's easier to micro.

DT rush - you are hoping your opp doesn't get robo, and doesn't know how to proxy a pylon to hop over FF on ramp. Free win if you get at least 3 dt on the map before a wave of stalkers snipe your dark shrine.

2-gate zealot pressure - designed to capitalize on greedy players, who don't scout and don't chrono early stalkers. You arrive at your opp's base with 5 zealots to find 1 stalker on defence. You have about 25 seconds to do stupid amount of damage to his 4wpgt before warp kicks in.

Proxy 2-gate - on some maps, you can proxy 2-gates, and if opp doesn't scout in time and goes core, it's usually a free win. Otherwise, you are stuck with 2-gate zealots vs 2-gate zealots, and you have to micro well. Might as well go 4-wpgt, since it's same micro, but with less risk.

Cannon rush - most players above diamond know that if you put 4 probes on each building warping, that building won't make it. Even if you end up pulling 16 probes, the other player can't really do much. Only works if opp doesn't scout around his base. There is an exploit on xel'naga, where you can build 3 pylons with probe safely inside, then add a cannon, and opp probes won't be able to drill to the cannon in time, but that only works if opp doesn't put a probe on your scout probe right away. It's very easy to block 2nd and 3rd pylon if you are ready for it.

Zealot archon - if you do 2-gate-cannons-into zealots, you are putting huge money on your ability to do early damage with early cannons and zealots, and force your opp off the game. Otherwise, it is based off 12-gate 4wpgt.

__________________________________________________ ________

The problems with 4wpgt in pvp:
-You don't expand, and there is no way your opp can expand. Games can't really go macro.
-It's based 15% on execution and 85% on micro and positioning. 1 micro mistake loses you the game.
-Any other build is huge risk-taking and disadvantage. 4wpgt can achieve the same level of damage with no such risks.
-Tech after 4-wpgt is pushed away is stupid and simple, no unit variety. You either go robo or archons. Archons is more short-term, because in the very long run, robo wins by pure brute force. Voidrays are meh as a short-term counter to colossi and immortals, because archons are cheaper and more effective.

Solutions required:
-Need a FE build that is viable. Currently, there is no way you can play FE in PvP. No1 is yet to come up with one.
-Need mechanics to allow for tech. In any other mirror, there is an infinite possibility of tech routs. In PvP fast tech is 100% loss.

To add, I've tried almost everything.
-mommaship rush
-2-gate-stargate phoenixes
-gate-stargate-gate-gate
-gate-forge-gate-gate-robo(cannons for D)
-gate-TC(charge)-gate-gate
-15 nexus with forge and cannons

Nothing works. 4 wpgt just has stupid advantage over anything, but another 4wpgt.

So, what are your suggestions? I'm wondering how to handle pvp and not play 4wg, and what changes are desired in the long run to fix PvP and make it more diverse and fun.

[duanloves]

I've been doing a 1 base 2 gas 5 gate defensive into pressure and it works well in medium to large maps. My PvP matchup is so far the best.
Alot of it goes down to build orders too. A 12-gate varies from 13-gate.

[Fourby]

Yeh call me crazy, but I actually like PvP's.. It gives me a break from games from zergs (85% of my games) and a break from stupid annoying girl bashing emo terran drops.

PvP is like a quick fun arcade game packed with action lol

[Daboo]

^^ This. In a weird way I've too started to like pvp matches quite a bit, and losing it does not actually upset me that much. It's now got to the point where I like watching pvp too, just to see what sort of builds a person is doing, it's a very technical match up, and heavily dependant on build orders.

The fun part is I go into yabot, and try to shave off seconds off a build to get it out the fastest, almost like a speed record, and then go on the ladder to see how it works out.

But OP if your looking for a FE build, there is adel scotts no gas FE build in pvp, it is viable on maps with a closed natural.check this out:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft...27s_No_Gas_PvP

I've never actually got the chance to try it out myself, but it might be worth something if you've tried a lot of other builds.

My personal favorite is the dt rush though.

[duanloves]

I tried Adel's FE built but it loses to a standard 4 gate timing attack.
Been trying out korean 4 gates and it does give me a lot of map control

[noobinater]

vs anything that isn't forge before core I've been using day[9]'s anti-4gate 2gate-robo build. If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me (and anything is better than 4gating).

Warpgate really needs to be higher tech option with some kind of drawback (does anybody remember the hotkey to turn WG's back to gateways? yeah). So toss looses a few early game timing attacks, I'd be glad to loose them if it meant killing 4gate.

[Stallion]

Originally Posted by noobinater

vs anything that isn't forge before core I've been using day[9]'s anti-4gate 2gate-robo build. If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me (and anything is better than 4gating).

to this pls provide a link id love to see this

Warpgate really needs to be higher tech option with some kind of drawback (does anybody remember the hotkey to turn WG's back to gateways? yeah). So toss looses a few early game timing attacks, I'd be glad to loose them if it meant killing 4gate.

the only early timing from protoss is a 4 gate that involves wrap gates and it wont solve the problem anymore just make it so that protoss has less options which isnt a good way to go as then people would do a diferent build all the time again and again imo or more blind build order wins will come again imo

[Next_rim]

I was thinking, if they move deeper down the road they are right now, that is making gateways more attractive early game, it doesn't fix anything. Defense player will be playing 4 gateway instead of 4wpgt.

I vote - increase speed of zealot. So you can at least skip core in favor of nexus, spam zealots off gateways, and still be able to defend a stalker 4wpgt.

[VB_WhiplashJC]

It can't be anything that improves proxy 2gate.

[Next_rim]

Proxy 2gate is already fairly easy to deal with, if you know it's coming. And you should know, if you scout.

[noobinater]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

I was thinking, if they move deeper down the road they are right now, that is making gateways more attractive early game, it doesn't fix anything. Defense player will be playing 4 gateway instead of 4wpgt.

The strongest part of the 4gate is that you can warp units onto the high ground of a ramp, negating the biggest defenders advantage (high ground and the ramp choke). Without that advantage, forcefields become so much stronger so you can tech safely while still holding 4gate.

Originally Posted by Next_rim

Proxy 2gate is already fairly easy to deal with, if you know it's coming. And you should know, if you scout.

How do you know the difference between a proxy 2gate and proxy forge or are the responses identical?

[Next_rim]

How do you know the difference between a proxy 2gate and proxy forge or are the responses identical?

They are indeed, at least step one.

1)You scout corners of your base and natural, and all the way around your main on low ground. Proxy forge has to be on low ground, defending a pylon close to the edge, otherwise it makes little sense to proxy a forge.
2) If you see a forge, you build your own forge and cannons, and completely wall of your ramp, so he can't get high ground vision.
3) If you don't see any pylons in position, it is proxy 2-gate, and you add 2nd gate of your own, or take a risk and proceed with core with a complete wall off at ramp.

I've seen people playing mind games, and building standard 4-gate, but in the middle of the map. It throws opp of the game, makes them panic and build extra structures, delaying their own 4-gate.

The strongest part of the 4gate is that you can warp units onto the high ground of a ramp, negating the biggest defenders advantage (high ground and the ramp choke). Without that advantage, forcefields become so much stronger so you can tech safely while still holding 4gate.

But if gateway becomes faster, I can skip core, and just put my own 4 gateways. I'll have same number of units, and I don't need to warp, since I can just D in my main or at the natural. Warping on high ground is not that important actually. Micro wars ftw(l)

[porkchop]

what day9's pro week for toss, he discusses the exact same thing ... although most of the games are against zerg, i think the build goes, gate-core-gate-xpo-gate-stargate..

very effective ... gives you map control , i think the units u have will give enough deff to hold on , against 4gate,

btw its ogsMC's build... rule the skies,

or you could do what most toss do in GM KR server, they just put pressure , with 3gate, and lock up the opponents ramp with fields, then expos , once he gets blink , u have xpo and maybe 5-6 gate.. he might have colosi , but , u would ahve too many gateway units ,

[duanloves]

Originally Posted by porkchop

you could do what most toss do in GM KR server, they just put pressure , with 3gate, and lock up the opponents ramp with fields, then expos , once he gets blink , u have xpo and maybe 5-6 gate.. he might have colosi , but , u would ahve too many gateway units ,

That makes your vulnerable to a DT/Archon or warp prism play or simple even a proxy pylon. There's more options that a defensive toss can go for compared to a toss trying to contain you into 1 base.
PvP very fun matchup even though the lack of variety,

[AxSGRiM]

I hate PvP because I lose to it so much because of the random luck factor where you can't scout after they get their stalker or until you finally get an obs in there base. IMO, I've tried to play PvP in different ways but I still lose to players that aren't as mechanically good as me and the matchup is messed up in my opinion. There needs to be more room for mechanics in PvP.

[ToRDeathsFang]

PvP is like rolling 2 snowballs down a mountain and seeing which one is bigger at the bottom

[porkchop]

Originally Posted by DeathsFang

PvP is like rolling 2 snowballs down a mountain and seeing which one is bigger at the bottom

true that .. motha ship isnt used as much in PVP though , id love to see a good game with motha ship and airs units vs mass arcons and colosi , hehehhe... that would be fun , but watching blink mirco and other amzaing sh*t KRs do is OP


1st time i saw blink mirco , was PVZ in delta , it was IMBA..solid sick to the bonEZZZZ

[nGenLight]

PvP is only hard because it's the matchup Protoss players spend least time on. You can get good at anything, if you spend enough time on it.

[maximusPrime]

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=240236

Learn this build and just win. By 5:50 when WG has finished researching you have more units then the other player off only 3 gates and blink will be finished soon.

[Next_rim]

maximusPrime,

Tried it, it's definitely good, but it works bad vs any non-4gate build. If opp is going greedy robo+sentries, there is no way to punish him.

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

PvP is only hard because it's the matchup Protoss players spend least time on. You can get good at anything, if you spend enough time on it.

Agree and disagree, i mean, practice is obviously still going to help a lot, and dont get me wrong its not like a GM is ever going to lose to a gold player in PvP... But i mean, it's pretty hard to argue that you can get 'good' at guessing the results of a coinflip, which is essentially what a lot of the first games of PvP against someone of equal level is.

But yeah, in regards to OP, 4wpgt isn't the problem with PvP anymore (except scrap & tal'darim). It's kinda the build order advantages people get in certain situations, of which there are almost too many to list out, and the fact that blink stalkers + proxy pylons make the matchup have literally zero defenders advantage, making expanding very, very, very, veryx10000 hard for either player unless he has the lead and then generally he can just win via there being no defenders advantage anyway and blink stalkers also making it incredibly hard to push out against unless you also have blink stalkers yourself because you just get the worse end of a base trade even if your current army could beat theirs... hence why you see most High level PvP's just be 1-base fests of blink stalkers + immo's vs blink stalkers in the current metagame.

[maximusPrime]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

maximusPrime,

Tried it, it's definitely good, but it works bad vs any non-4gate build. If opp is going greedy robo+sentries, there is no way to punish him.

Usually if I see they have gotten their second gas early I get blink much faster. Your opponent needs to get those FF's exactly perfect and not let a single stalker through the ramp because if he does you blink straight into his base and completely punish them. I choose blink play over robo majority of the time the mobility of blink stalkers is just great and just constant harass works beautifully. Getting out an obs or researching hallucinate to get vision of their main to blink up and take out a few production buildings before blinking out again is great.

As for blink stalkers vs blink stalkers I suppose it's up to who has the better blink micro. If they have gone blink though they most likely won't have detection so throw down a dark shrine and just walk in with 3-4 DT's. Since I started using this build my PvP has become so much better it's not funny, now probably my best MU.

[Duck]

It seems like the only time Protoss players need to micro, the match-up is broken...

Given both players are using the same units, it should not come as a surprise that these games are won or lost on micro and positioning rather than execution. One mistake can lose you a Bling war ZvZ too.

And isn't there an element of the 'coin-flip' in every mirror match-up?

[porkchop]

Originally Posted by maximusPrime

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=240236

Learn this build and just win. By 5:50 when WG has finished researching you have more units then the other player off only 3 gates and blink will be finished soon.

this looks fun .. il try it later

[Daboo]

Guys have you tried the 3 stalker rush? (I believe it was created by yongwa ). It's supposed to the anti 4 gate build, and you have three stalkers out to pick off the probe that comes to lay the pylon, and with three stalkers you can finish off the stalker/zealot combo, and also the last stalker that comes a little later after the first two.

And then you have map control and can do whatever you want to. Not exactly sure of the build myself, but I think the core idea behind the build is to chrono stalkers as opposed to the warp gate.

Found a video tutorial of it, by artosis himself:

You Tube

You Tube

Will probably try this out when I'm laddering later, looks quite promosing, but I think this is a bit more apm intensive, and requires you to be active with your stalkers.

[SLCN.Kez]

i have never really played protoss but you seem to be in a similar situation that zergs find themselves in (the match up is a bit rock-paper-scissory). You just need to do an early solid build (even if it isnt 4 wg) that u can adapt depending on your scout that can react well and you have a good next step. For example in zvz would be 11 overpool, you can drone or put pressure depending what u scout, its very safe, but can be macro oriented depending. So if you complain that x beats y and z beat x but not y and so forth then choose option v that you can subtley change to be better against one of their options. And by scouting i dont necessarily mean "oh i can see a twilight therefore he is doing x, i more mean oh i scouted this gas at this time, scouting pylons to ensure no proxies, when first/2nd gates go down etc. Also do note, no matter waht build you do, how good you are, or any other circumstances, you just cant account for all the random shit that can happen on ladder. This was my hardest issue with playing zerg as you have to react well to what your're opponent is doing, and i would constantly rage because he did something weird and wonky that there was just no way to see coming or was way to hard to spot. You just need to shrug it off, play more games, account for what is GENERALLY going to happen and when that time comes, you'll know exactly how to play it and should be able to win. Hope this helps

*edit*I think if i played toss i would actually like this matchup as i luuurrrveee microing
Oh and daboo that map is on steppes of war so im gonna assume its really ****** old and a lot of stuff has probably changed that would make it less viable

[Next_rim]

So if you complain that x beats y and z beat x but not y and so forth then choose option v that you can subtley change to be better against one of their options.

I'm fine with rock paper scissors. I'm not fine with 4wg>>>all. It comes to a line where you either take a huge risk, and win if it pays off, or have to play your own 4wg, which is monotonous and boring. PvP is either you 4wg, or you defend from 4wg. Or cheese with proxy or cannons, which is what I've been inclined to do in the last 20-ish games.

Zerg, at least from what I know, is completely different. There is a variation of openings, that is followed by strikingly different and well-defined playstyles, and there are BO losses too.

Terran is macro and positional, zerg is BOs, and protoss is...4wg. Not much fun here.

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

I'm fine with rock paper scissors. I'm not fine with 4wg>>>all. It comes to a line where you either take a huge risk, and win if it pays off, or have to play your own 4wg, which is monotonous and boring. PvP is either you 4wg, or you defend from 4wg. Or cheese with proxy or cannons, which is what I've been inclined to do in the last 20-ish games.

Zerg, at least from what I know, is completely different. There is a variation of openings, that is followed by strikingly different and well-defined playstyles, and there are BO losses too.

Terran is macro and positional, zerg is BOs, and protoss is...4wg. Not much fun here.

I think it's been established in this thread that 4wg is NOT the be all and end all of PvP.

[Next_rim]

I think it's been established in this thread that 4wg is NOT the be all and end all of PvP.

Everything that has been suggested are ways to counter 4wg.

I wonder if forge FE will do the trick. You wouldn't 4wg a cannon wall, it's suicide. Rushed blink stalkers come at what...6:10-ish? If you cannon natural, and wall bottom of the ramp that goes up to your main, you can probably keep blink stalkers at your natural fighting cannons till they have illusion or observer, which is a while.

I'm up for a test. Gonna try this FE BO on my next Shakuras or Gulch PvP:

9 - pylon at bottom of ramp that leads to natural
15 - nexus
15 - forge at bottom of ramp
16 - second pylon at natural nexus

Cannon around natural nexus (thinking 5-6 cannons, easily done with cutting probes at natural).

Won't work on TA. Will be hard on Shattered and Metalopolis. Would do ok on scrap station and XNC.

[Daboo]

Forge fast expand does not work at all, whenever I face it, it's like a free win. Blink with observers totally pwns it. You basically will have little or no units to fend off because you invested in a forge+ cannons, and a nexus. Or recently in a match, some one went for the warp prism 4 gate, which completely stomped ffe.

And you could get two gated as well, if you go nexus first.