[Crankenstein]

Q: You won the GSL January 2011. But you were eliminated from Code S by losing two fast games to Julyzerg. What do you think about the current state of Code S? Are you confident you will be able to do well in future GSLs?

A: With longer starting distances on the new GSL maps, it has become very bad for Terran, I think it’s pretty obvious when all the Terrans were eliminated from GSL. If Terran gets nerfed again, I think it will be hard to produce good results. I’ve even considered changing races for the next tournament, but I’m not sure about what I’ll do yet.

I think he has a good point. We are getting larger maps (Shakuras is back and Tal'Darim etc.) and we got the nerf he was dreading.

What do others think? I'd love to hear some opinions on this and patch 1.3 from some high SEA Terrans.

[NvPinder]

Yep, longer maps disadvantage terran in comparison to short maps in tvz.

Yep, the nerfs obviously disadvantage terran.

What more is there to discuss? Or do you just want better players to come in here and tell you that your losses aren't all your fault and terran is underpowered...?

[Crankenstein]

No I'm actually quite enjoying the larger maps. I'm just interested in what others think...

For example we just saw Thorzain double expand against fruitdealer thanks to the larger GSL maps and yet IMmvp see's them as a problem?

I doubt he will follow through with his race change... So many people say that and how many have actually changed? TLO and Morrow... that's about it.

[ETL.Santi]

I think protoss and zerg are op but us terrans still beat them cause they are retarded.

[Xeen]

It certainly hasn't dented the results of Terran players in GSTL.

Just because something is 'disadvantaged' doesn't mean it's imbalanced or unwinnable.

[Edrahil]

I think the issue is more that Terran was OP on smaller maps because it made it easier to harass, abuse early game pressure and easy to do tank pushes, and the larger maps even out the playing field, so we should see a more even racial distribution in GSL moving forward (hopefully).

[TAavanar]

honestly i think he just needed an excuse for dropping down to code A

[inFeZa]

i have him on my friends list XD

[TAminimat]

He should switch to Zerg since Zerg is op especially on really short maps....

[Makra]

It's probably just a matter of learning to adapt to the maps and use a different playstyle. The advantage for terran is that multi prong drops and harrass are much more dangerous on those maps.

[Starcraftmazter]

Here's the problem IMO

Mobility:
Zerg: Creep, Nydus
Protoss: Warp in anywhere on map
Terran: ???
(To add insult to injury, medivac speed was nerfed, and atm medivacs are slower than dropships in bw)

Fast army regeneration:
Zerg: Larva buildup
Protoss: Warp in (being very quick) + chrono boost
Terran: ?

Super Strong Units
Protoss: Colossi, templar
Zerg: Ultras, Brood lords
Terran: ??

Unit Balls
Of all the races, the terran mech/biomech ball is by far the least mobile. Leapfrogging seige tanks on big maps is almost pointless, but necessary against zerg.


The longer the games goes on for, the lesser is the chance of terran winning. The larger the map is, the lesser is the chance of terran winning. SC2 is simply not balanced for larger maps at the moment. Terran has in general the slowest army, thus it's ability to be aggressive in the early game on large maps is non-existant. Combined with it's late game weaknesses.....TvX games are usually a near impossible race to kill off the zerg or protoss opponent before they reach a point of having a maxed army / max production ability.


inb4 "medivacs marines a move trololololo"

[kellyMILKIES]

Originally Posted by Starcraftmazter

Here's the problem IMO

I am sorry sir, I have to intervene right here.

Mobility:
Zerg: Creep, Nydus
Protoss: Warp in anywhere on map
Terran: ???
(To add insult to injury, medivac speed was nerfed, and atm medivacs are slower than dropships in bw)

... Mobility, have you seen much zerg use much Nydus in the first place? Because getting that shit landed/planted is a challenge by itself.
You completely forgot you have drop. And you have Stim as well??

Fast army regeneration:
Zerg: Larva buildup
Protoss: Warp in (being very quick) + chrono boost
Terran: ?

At this, I think you mean re-pop. That is why Terrans have usually what is considered a stronger economy. It's for you to build buildings??? (MMM is pretty quick to reproduce) Unless of course you are talking about losing your mech army (Which in the first place shouldn't be lost easily) then you will have difficulty purely because of gas.

Super Strong Units
Protoss: Colossi, templar
Zerg: Ultras, Brood lords
Terran: ??

You have the best Tier 1 unit - Marines? LOL? You can essentially end the game before P or Z gets to that "Super Strong Unit"

Unit Balls
Of all the races, the terran mech/biomech ball is by far the least mobile. Leapfrogging seige tanks on big maps is almost pointless, but necessary against zerg.

That's why you have strict timing windows you have to hit.

The longer the games goes on for, the lesser is the chance of terran winning. The larger the map is, the lesser is the chance of terran winning. SC2 is simply not balanced for larger maps at the moment. Terran has in general the slowest army, thus it's ability to be aggressive in the early game on large maps is non-existant. Combined with it's late game weaknesses.....TvX games are usually a near impossible race to kill off the zerg or protoss opponent before they reach a point of having a maxed army / max production ability.

Erm, no. I'm pretty sure if you go head up TvZ, a 200 food mech army is almost impossible to beat and the best bet for zerg is to go for a counter attack


In all, I think you have to re-think your point of view about difficulty as a Terran base on army lol. I left out about TvP because I don't play Protoss at all but if Terrans are having difficulties now, it's definitely because of Map Structure and not because of your army -o-
But that's just my opinion which can be viewed as the crazy cat lady who tells you to eat your vegetables.

[ZergGirl]

Originally Posted by Starcraftmazter

Here's the problem IMO

No, you can't have your cake without a fight anymore.

MVP said what he did as he is paid to play and no pro gamer likes losing an edge their race had. Potential winnings and all that.

Originally Posted by MskiRye

Very well said.
I myself thinking to switch races. Terran can only win on small and medium maps, it is really difficult to win on large maps where Z can easily have 3rd 4th and 5th. And they hold Z to replenish the army while you w8 to make a marine on racks

You looking to be validated by fellow noobs? or you trollin'

[Crankenstein]

Hmm yeah... that's how I'm starting to feel.

I think the Thor qualifies for what you have called a "super strong unit". I have yet to make BC's since the patch but I wonder how they will fair with the speed buff.

[Starcraftmazter]

Originally Posted by Crankenstein

I think the Thor qualifies for what you have called a "super strong unit". I have yet to make BC's since the patch but I wonder how they will fair with the speed buff.

Thors are not even late game. You can have thors in the early game if you want. They are great vs a small number of units with backup, but in the late game they become useless.

You don't really need to attack thors either, between the time they leave the terran base and get to the enemy base, you can do a whole lot to deal with it one way or another.


Idk, I'm just pissed off lately. Korean pro gamers so rarely comment on balance. If a player of Mvp's callibre is saying something, it's not complete qq bs.

[MskiRye]

Originally Posted by Starcraftmazter

Thors are not even late game. You can have thors in the early game if you want. They are great vs a small number of units with backup, but in the late game they become useless.

You don't really need to attack thors either, between the time they leave the terran base and get to the enemy base, you can do a whole lot to deal with it one way or another.


Idk, I'm just pissed off lately. Korean pro gamers so rarely comment on balance. If a player of Mvp's callibre is saying something, it's not complete qq bs.

Very well said.
I myself thinking to switch races. Terran can only win on small and medium maps, it is really difficult to win on large maps where Z can easily have 3rd 4th and 5th. And they hold Z to replenish the army while you w8 to make a marine on racks

[cruxis]

I saw a Terran rage about Stim timing when he researched Combat Shields first......

[NDG.Stitch]

I gotta agree that at the moment, the Terrans are at a huge disadvantage in many matchups.
As StarcraftMaster posted, we don't have a very reliant unit to use...
We don't have spells like Fungle Growth or Storm that do incredible damage with ONE SINGLE unit. And plus, our EMP has been nerfed to not taking out ALL energy. The recent buff on the Infestor is really good, because it takes out your units a hell lot faster.
One thing that really needs to be buffed on Terrans side is that the speed and mobility of units. Our AA is so slow. Vikings can't even match up to a phoenix or a muta's speed. Our dropships are super slow as well.
I really hate the new patch, it gives us an increase in bunker time, and stim research time, and 30 sec really ruins a 3 rax timing push for a terran player. I mean Stimmed Marines (Which already take off HP from our guys) really can barely catch up to Speedlings or Mutas that are running away - which is ridiculous because we are losing HP at the same time.

Terran really needs a buff IMO. But that's just my opinion. I think the Zerg buff was fair in a way for them, but I think the nerfing for terrans really needs to stop!!!

[ZergGirl]

Unsure as to who is trolling and who is being serious, this shit is doing my head in.
I do know Avanar speaks the truth though.

[PuppetMaster557]

Originally Posted by zerggirl

unsure as to who is trolling and who is being serious, this shit is doing my head in.
I do know avanar speaks the truth though.

lol wtf thats so noob why do you even talk ahahahahahhaahhahahaha

[cure]

This looks fun, i'm doing one too.


Mobility:
Zerg: Creep (If the terran allows the creep to spread that much without killing it), Nydus (If they choose to use that amount of money and if the terran doesn't know how to get sight of his base)
Protoss: Warp in anywhere on map (provided they use 100 or more minerals for a proxy pylon or two that most probably will die)
Terran: Stim (unstimmed is still as fast as a zealot), medivacs, and don't make me start on blueflame hellions.

Fast army regeneration:
Zerg: Larvae buildup (Unable to make drones while making army)
Protoss: Warp in + Chronoboost (If they overcommit to gateway, they lose to bio, hence, lower number of gateways compared to rax which also means, slower army replenish)
Terran: Make rax, make more max, mule, make more rax.

Super Strong Units
Protoss: Colossi, templar
Zerg: Ultras, Brood lords
Terran: Who needs it when you have a specific counter to w/e the super strong units are? (Colossi/BL > Vikings, Ultra > Marauder, Templar > Ghost)

Unit Balls
Of all the races, the terran mech is by far the STRONGEST ball, and since terrans can lift off, counterattacking isn't an option.


Before you call any other races OP, think of the benefits that only terrans have ^^

[Starcraftmazter]

Originally Posted by Kaz

Terran: Stim (unstimmed is still as fast as a zealot), medivacs, and don't make me start on blueflame hellions.

1. Hellions (and reapers which are never used) are the only fast terran units. If you contrast this to other races, they units in general are more fast than terran units are in general. This does not mean there aren't exceptions, it means overall terran units are slower.

2. Last time I checked neither protoss nor zerg lose HP to move.

3. Mech can't stim.

Originally Posted by Kaz

Terran: Make rax, make more max, mule, make more rax.

1. Rax units still build at normal speed
2. Relies on high income as opposed to simply being able to rebuild army quick from existing infrastructure, thus this has an added cost of infrastructure + having to defend it.
3. Rax units only.

Originally Posted by Kaz

Terran: Who needs it when you have a specific counter to w/e the super strong units are? (Colossi/BL > Vikings, Ultra > Marauder, Templar > Ghost)

Best be troll'n.

Originally Posted by Kaz

Of all the races, the terran mech is by far the STRONGEST ball, and since terrans can lift off, counterattacking isn't an option.

When in defensive posture, it will defend one tiny portion of the map well. How this is relevant to the rest of the game, I am unsure.

Originally Posted by Kaz

Before you call any other races OP, think of the benefits that only terrans have ^^

I didn't, Mvp did. I'm simply re-iterating in detail why he thinks so. Further so, this is not so much about race balance as the game not being balanced for bigger maps.

[cure]

Originally Posted by Starcraftmazter

1. Hellions (and reapers which are never used) are the only fast terran units. If you contrast this to other races, they units in general are more fast than terran units are in general. This does not mean there aren't exceptions, it means overall terran units are slower.
2. Last time I checked neither protoss nor zerg lose HP to move.
3. Mech can't stim.

1. I don't know what you're playing but i'm sure hellions and reapers are used alot.
2. Terrans don't lose HP to move either.
3. Nobody said mech can stim.

Originally Posted by Starcraftmazter

1. Rax units still build at normal speed
2. Relies on high income as opposed to simply being able to rebuild army quick from existing infrastructure, thus this has an added cost of infrastructure + having to defend it.
3. Rax units only.

1. Nobody said they don't build at normal speed.
2. You have mules, and you can use the buildings as a wall, you have reactors.
3. Rax units only ?! So warpgates can actually make colossi ?
[/quote]

Originally Posted by Starcraftmazter

When in defensive posture, it will defend one tiny portion of the map well. How this is relevant to the rest of the game, I am unsure.

Nobody asked you to turtle for the whole game with your army bro.

Lastly, i'm pretty sure that if a zerg loses his army, he gets his hatches stomped, and he loses his production. Also, as his army is coming from different hatches, you can pretty much catch bits and pieces of his army here and there. For Protoss, it's pretty much GG if he loses the main ball. For terran however, there still is a chance to win.

[Starcraftmazter]

If you're not in the wood league, you're not allowed to comment.

[TAEdgE]

Will be harder but a lot of factors are overlooked such as creep spread being much harder to execute, drops much harder to monitor and the fact that terran can actually lose an army and not instantly die because it's so long to get to their base.

[PuppetMaster557]

This is will end all debates in this thread.

You Tube

You Tube

No more posts now thanks.

[Starcraftmazter]

Concentrate on one thing clearly.

Take BW. SC2 can be said to have 3 main differences. Somewhat different units/abilities and macro mechanics, both of which are irrelevant.

The third is mobility mechanics. Warp in for protoss, creep for zerg (although zerg units are faster overall than terran even without creep), but nothing for terran.


Remember that this is BW. Let's say we take BW, put in warp in and creep tumors where zerg units move faster on creep. Would BW be balanced then? How is the current situation any different?

That in itself I do not see a counter-argument to. Add to this the fact that medivacs are slower in sc2 than dropships in bw, that stim is more expensive in sc2 - and suddenly it's three times as bad.

[cure]

Originally Posted by Starcraftmazter

Concentrate on one thing clearly.

Take BW. SC2 can be said to have 3 main differences. Somewhat different units/abilities and macro mechanics, both of which are irrelevant.

The third is mobility mechanics. Warp in for protoss, creep for zerg (although zerg units are faster overall than terran even without creep), but nothing for terran.


Remember that this is BW. Let's say we take BW, put in warp in and creep tumors where zerg units move faster on creep. Would BW be balanced then? How is the current situation any different?

That in itself I do not see a counter-argument to. Add to this the fact that medivacs are slower in sc2 than dropships in bw, that stim is more expensive in sc2 - and suddenly it's three times as bad.

I heard SC2 =/= BW bro. Well, this is what i used to tell Zanooku when he rages that terran is OP, i think you should try the following steps too.

1)Switch to the OP race.
still doesn't work?
2)Make a QQ post/thread on forums.
still doesn't work?
3)Keep sending emails to blizzard till they nerf/buff the race(s).
still doesn't work?
4)Quit the game.
still doesn't work?
5)Slit your wrists.
still doesn't work?
6)If you're reading this, you did step #5 wrongly.