[Fourby]

TBH at the speed that he looked at both the locations (the CC and marine), What meany is saying is actually quite viable.
(yes i watched the replay, esp taking notice of the points pointed out by zerggirl)

He would have tried to scan both places almost instantaneously one after the other to try locate the CC from the running scv he saw earlier running northward from the XN tower. (assuming he saw it on the minimap).. At the APM he was playing at he most likely didnt have the time to think between both locations: "oh shit i have no energy im not going to try scan the other spot now"

I have watched the replay and that point in the replay was most concerning and i was leaning to believing he actually hacked, but now after his explanation, I believe he may very well be innocent. (ofcourse this is just my opinion)

Just for an example for those who refuse to understand what I am saying.

- If you have a bunch of energy in your nexus's mid-late game stored up and you see a push coming and need more units (protoss), you will just spam 'c' on all your warpgates, If you have 6 gates and only ~110 energy over a few nexus's, your going to still spam them on all of your warpgates regardless

At that point do you sit there and count your exact energy? No.. you try get that chrono and if you dont then BL for you.

-i could use an example for Z but its 3am and i cbf, i think you get the point.

among the other things he was doing, he would have just tried to quickly scan the locations.. and it turns out he didnt have the energy BL.

'2. Let's just assume you were planning to scan at the natural at the 1 o' clock position at 14:17(Where the random scouting marine was). You clicked your CCs and attempted a scan but realized you had no energy. If you had no energy, would you mind explaining why you flip your screen immediately afterwards to Cosmos' expo at 11 o' clock when you knew you had no energy ?'

Yeh it happened extremely fast, would would have tried to just scan both locations as fast as he can soo... idk.

As the others have said it would take more replays to really confirm anything. Alot more imo.

[myth_au]

I will watch the replay when i get home and comment.

But on another note, i am interested to know, why do people maphack on multiplayer? Personally, i don't understand where the 'achievement' is in cheating (which map hacks are).

It has only ever happened to me once and i just moved on. Like seriously, its a ladder game its not a tournament, or WCG or anything major. I am sure anything major like that there are strict rules. In those instances, there are serious consequences and possible community backlash. But over a ladder game?

I guess the possible argument is cosmos is bringing it to the attention of the community before it gets to those major events.

[SnoWPanda]

This was in the masters cup from a couple days ago. after looking through this thread, I watched my replay with MeaNy closely.

I don't play Terran so maybe its just game sense but the scans just seem to me to cover his map hack. He had really SUS scans. EVERY scan caught the CENTER of SOMETHING.

6:20ish - center of my warp prism (special tactics fail)
8:30ish - center on my robo support bay
13 minute - scans my third when his army in middle of map and promptly kills it
19 minute - scans center of my army

EDIT: attached replay

[FaDeBadger]

Watched the replay against SnoWPanda and none of that seemed suss to me.

Scanning at 6:20ish is a perfectly reasonable time to scan to see if you had your natural left. I would be happy to say that it was just lucky coincidence that your warp prism happened to be there.

Scanning the centre of your base at 8:30ish is again perfectly reasonable to see what tech path you are choosing. The fact that it was right over your support bay was more due to the fact you put it right in the middle of your base imo.

Why would he not scan for a 3rd? I probably would have just stimmed a marine and ran it there but scanning works too.

Don't know about the last one, does seem like an odd spot to scan. But I'm not willing to say he map hacks when the other scans seemed legit. Especially when he had scans that missed everything of note.

[SnoWPanda]

i agree with everything except

no he did NOT missed a single scan

lucky scans for sure but right on the CENTER of the target esp the warp prism???

[FaDeBadger]

Like I said, imo he was scanning to see if you had expanded and your warp prism just happened to be there. And yes he did have scans where they showed nothing, I saw at least one scan of your natural ramp where your army wasn't even there.

~Edit: I would have sent my warp prism the other way, especially at that time for that exact reason. It's not an uncommon time or place to scan.

[TAriiChard]

Originally Posted by SnoWPanda

This was in the masters cup from a couple days ago. after looking through this thread, I watched my replay with MeaNy closely.

I don't play Terran so maybe its just game sense but the scans just seem to me to cover his map hack. He had really SUS scans. EVERY scan caught the CENTER of SOMETHING.



EDIT: attached replay

WOW! So basically the thread started with the accusations of MeaNy not scanning/scouting leading to MeaNy being called a hacker... Now you're saying that he scans to hide the fact that he's a hacker??

[Dox]

Originally Posted by SnoWPanda

This was in the masters cup from a couple days ago. after looking through this thread, I watched my replay with MeaNy closely.

I don't play Terran so maybe its just game sense but the scans just seem to me to cover his map hack. He had really SUS scans. EVERY scan caught the CENTER of SOMETHING.

6:20ish - center of my warp prism (special tactics fail)
8:30ish - center on my robo support bay
13 minute - scans my third when his army in middle of map and promptly kills it
19 minute - scans center of my army

EDIT: attached replay

I haven't watched your replay yet, but please consider something. No-one would be silly enough to maphack in a tournament being hosted by the same website/community where he is actively being investigated for maphacking.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

haha good point. unless hes meta gaming u! :)

[nard]

If u watched cosmos' replay u would have noticed that his scans while moving his army out are right on the money too. But that isn't indicative of a maphack. He may have been trying to hide the fact that he maphacks but it's best to present more conclusive evidence rather than something that may very well be attributed to luck and good game sense.

[nGenLight]

I don't know the random stimming of marines to defend the drop was VERY suss. My question is how do we get conclusive evidence for something like this, or are these cases going to be decided by majority opinion.

[Tom]

I say majority opinion. There just ain't no justice like lynch mob justice!

In all seriousness though, I guess we just have to hope Blizzard is good enough at picking these up and banning promptly. Reporting players is never going to work given the amount of people out there with an axe to grind (no reference to anyone in the present thread intended). Seems like they have bigger fish to fry at the moment with the drop hacking.

So long as all Blizzard can do is ban accounts, the prevalence of hacking will remain high because the risk/cost of getting caught just doesn't outweigh the benefit of hacking (get caught = buy a new account). Just as a point of interest for the budding lawyers in this thread, there are criminal penalties in Australia that attach to interference with so-called "moral rights" (which include the right of integrity of a literary work such as programming code). Theoretically, a criminal prosecution could be brought against people using "hacks" in Australia. That would really give people something to think about, but realistically the probability of this occurring is low.

[nard]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

I don't know the random stimming of marines to defend the drop was VERY suss. My question is how do we get conclusive evidence for something like this, or are these cases going to be decided by majority opinion.

I was just referring to the scans. As for the stimmed marines to defend the drop, it is suspicious but I'm not qualified to comment on whether he's cheating or not cos
I'm probably nowhere near meany's level of play

[V_enDetta]

Originally Posted by Fourby

TBH at the speed that he looked at both the locations (the CC and marine), What meany is saying is actually quite viable.
(yes i watched the replay, esp taking notice of the points pointed out by zerggirl)

He would have tried to scan both places almost instantaneously one after the other to try locate the CC from the running scv he saw earlier running northward from the XN tower. (assuming he saw it on the minimap).. At the APM he was playing at he most likely didnt have the time to think between both locations: "oh shit i have no energy im not going to try scan the other spot now"

I have watched the replay and that point in the replay was most concerning and i was leaning to believing he actually hacked, but now after his explanation, I believe he may very well be innocent. (ofcourse this is just my opinion)

Just for an example for those who refuse to understand what I am saying.

- If you have a bunch of energy in your nexus's mid-late game stored up and you see a push coming and need more units (protoss), you will just spam 'c' on all your warpgates, If you have 6 gates and only ~110 energy over a few nexus's, your going to still spam them on all of your warpgates regardless

At that point do you sit there and count your exact energy? No.. you try get that chrono and if you dont then BL for you.

-i could use an example for Z but its 3am and i cbf, i think you get the point.

among the other things he was doing, he would have just tried to quickly scan the locations.. and it turns out he didnt have the energy BL.

'2. Let's just assume you were planning to scan at the natural at the 1 o' clock position at 14:17(Where the random scouting marine was). You clicked your CCs and attempted a scan but realized you had no energy. If you had no energy, would you mind explaining why you flip your screen immediately afterwards to Cosmos' expo at 11 o' clock when you knew you had no energy ?'

Yeh it happened extremely fast, would would have tried to just scan both locations as fast as he can soo... idk.

As the others have said it would take more replays to really confirm anything. Alot more imo.

Fourby I'm sorry but I have to counter your entire argument with a few sentences.

1. Meany zoomed to the only 2 expansions out of ALL the expansions in the map, where Cosmos had a unit/building placed.

2. He totally left out the expansion in between the CC and the marine, which is weird as you'll expect your opposition to expand at that one instead of where the marine was.

If those two points (especially the first one) aren't obvious enough, not considering the stimmed marines running down his base to counter the drops by cosmos, I don't know what is.

[dippa]

Originally Posted by Dox

I haven't watched your replay yet, but please consider something. No-one would be silly enough to maphack in a tournament being hosted by the same website/community where he is actively being investigated for maphacking.

dont underestimate the stupidity of cheaters.

[SayfT]

Originally Posted by Dox

I haven't watched your replay yet, but please consider something. No-one would be silly enough to maphack in a tournament being hosted by the same website/community where he is actively being investigated for maphacking.

We had a couple of tools smurfing in GPD tourneys before, people's craving to win can make em do some silly stuff :P

[clock]

at the time in question (14:33 or something) when he looks at fog of war at marine and hidden expo, I would like to note that he DOES select his command centre, i think this is an important point because if he didnt, there would be no way that he attempted to scan.

HOWEVER, he only selects his CC for a very very small amount of time, even on Normal speed it flashes away like a lightning flash.... is this long enough to try and hit "c click" or is it just a "spam" reflex? (quite common with apm that high)

also, when i scan i will always click on the minimap for expo scans like that to save time.

not long after (just after he kills marine at expo in the 15th minute) he also looks at fog directly over the opponents army. at this point he does not select his command centre, nor issue any kind of attack move that i can see. fuirther to this point, he just called down 2 mules and would be well aware he does not have a scan anyway (at least i would in that short space of time) watch it on normal speed and you will see what I mean

If anyone gets what im saying and wants to investigate the selections further please do so.

[TargA]

i say we hang him

[Fourby]

lol targa, you would... SEA isnt norway, its just not how its done anymore man lol

[myth_au]

Okay i finally got a chance to watch the replay submitted (Cosmos v Meany).

I think he is map hacking. For the following REASONS:

1. At about 5.40 he randomly looks at Cosmos's base. I do not believe that he was gonna scan at that time. If you look at his control he has the CC selected for like 10 sec and he knows there is insufficient energy (energy was only at 30 and he clearly knew it).

2. 11.22 he moves his army to try and stop the vikings. (Although this isnt really conclusive it does look suss).

3. 11.56 he moves intot he fog of war right at a marine.... Seriously?!

4. 12.45 he again goes to the fog of war right a marine. But in this instance he does do a move command, which he later stops. So not has pursuasive.

5. 14.17 he clickes into a fog of war right where a marine is again. Does not command. At the time he had his tanks select and its a mile away.

6. 14.20 he clickes again into a fog of war right on top of a CC seriously?!

BTW just before 5 and 6 he selected his CC before so i think he knew there was no energy but if he didnt i would've though when he selected one area and the scan didnt go off why would he want to click in another random area just right after?!
I am getting a feeling that this guy is either has a rabbit foot or a four leave clover?!!!

7.18.40 he attacks the hidden cc at the 10 O'Clock blindly and even stims... o.O

8. 19.00 he randomly runs his marines to his main before not even spotting the drop...

there are instanecs where it does look abit strange but i don't think it supports the idea that he map hacks, such as saving his scouting scv. his vision supports that he saw the marine so yea and the attack of the marine at his 3rd etc.

but i think the above are pursuasive arguements as to why he was map hacking. Hope the above helps.

But i woudl like to say i do think Meany was gonna win even without the maphacks just looking at supply. I do hope he doesnt do it in tournies =(

[BeCosmos]

I appreciate your messages, Rock and Master. I would have probably react the same way most people did on this thread if it was one of my friends with which I would have done tons of games (and mostly wins) who was accused of cheating.

It was mostly my fault if the thread resulted in flame against me at start. I shouldn't have post too quickly. I should have analyze the replay better to add all the informations like (for example) Myth_au did. And I should aswell have write it in a less "offensive" way.

Please do keep in mind that my main server isn't SEA and that I reported the player here for the SEA community ONLY. I never took part in any SEA tournament and because of my delay on the SEA server I consider it more like a warmup than my real practice server.

I want to tell you aswell that I come from warcraft 3 and the game died because of cheaters (for example, if you make a 10 wins streak on the ladder, you will ALWAYS be matchedl against a cheater) so everyone was aware of the hackers and it wasn't even a surprise when hackers were discovered (even in tournament).
Because of that wc3 background I didn't expect you guys to be skeptical about cheating and I should have refine my post.

I now consider this "case" closed and I hope to meet you guys on ladder, SEA you !