[dippa]

Originally Posted by Flaunt

wtf. you expect him to keep it at his base? there are terrans who actually play with more than one hand.

chill. i'm pretty sure mafia knows plenty about terrans who play with more than one hand, you know, since he's got over 1000 points in korean masters and is actually quite ******* good at this game -.-

(just saying you can object without lashing out)

Quick Comments

Flaunt:

sorry. just feel really bad for the guy since his reputation has been thrashed. sorry mafia for lasing out :)

[x5.Revenant]

With tgun's info on how camera locking works, it does seem that he wasn't utilizing camera-locking in Ender vs Chobo. The sus moments from Ender vs Chobo's games(two huge AFK moments) is very likely to just actual AFKing, with a very small leeway of him "unlocking" his camera lock very smooth.

1. The APM drops to 0 at both moments(Not sure if screen-locks does this, but if it doesn't, that means he's actually just AFK)
2. It seems with auto camera locking, there will be a "snap back to original camera view" effect which causes a jerk on the player's screen.
3. The other sus moments that occurred in the replay have been coincidences.

I'm convinced that chobo didn't hack in his game vs Ender.

Quick Comments

	ToRPeek:	Just adding the the apm drops to 0, adding to the AFK point
	Sedz:
	jayaiwhy:
	nirvAnA:	It takes courage to come back and say this after re-evaluating the games :)
	AsGNabi:	thank you :)

[iM tgun]

My thoughts:

You Tube

You Tube

Please feel free to tell me if you think I'm right/wrong and why.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	you are a true hero, everyone needs to watch this video with an open mind
	Nemo:	Fantastic job this evening
	AxSGRiM:
	Dumbledore:	Gj
	Champi:	spending too much time on NA, ur accent is changing mate :P
	Criven:	Such a boss.
	Fenner:	i like the way you think
	RicocheT:
	mGGDaedalus:	nice work, valid points
	DM.MCZ.Polaris:
	Sedz:	He's not the hero we deserve, but the hero we need

[Nemo]

I've watched with a bunch of guys tgun analyzing many Chobo's replays. The vid is just a summary of 3 hours of streaming with people commenting on the chat. I must admit that it was really convincing. Chobo is often surprised by what happens in the game as he should be.

Note that no convinced Map Hacker in here was surprised like that in the games they were Map Hacking. It's extremely hard to "hide" the fact you know things in the heat of battle.

From the few I've read and seen I don't think he was map hacking but I'm still open to change my mind when I see the vids of Mafia and Rossi (haven't seen them yet but I will).

I thought he could have been using Production tab hacking only but tgun showed that it was not likely since one of his opponents (Peleus I think) was making roach and he didn't reacted to that at all before seeing them (no bunker, nor marauders, still sent his hellions to opponent base).

[Fenneth]

Originally Posted by tgun

My thoughts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZdBFc0i17o

Please feel free to tell me if you think I'm right/wrong and why.

I'm glad someone did this. It's so easy to get a warped view of things when you are only getting one side of the argument, so for someone to step up and provide a bit of balance is much needed. Defense lawyers exist for a good reason =)

Certainly there are some strange decisions and coincidences, and I think there's a good chance he really was cheating, but I don't see the iron-clad incontrovertible evidence you should have before you utterly trash someone's reputation.

Quick Comments

Flaunt:

oCe-Fenneth, king of West and slayer of BADdies.

[Zealo]

there is some pretty flawed logic getting used to condemn chobo in this thread, mostly from the same people, mostly repeating the same thing over and over and ignoring most responses. i'm probably going to simply get called biased and/or an ass hole, but enough people already can't stand me that i'm willing to take that hit to my reputation. why bother? because i'm the kind of person who used to argue about religion, i love calling people out for using flawed logic on the internet.

yes i'm friends with kice (and can confirm the hot girlfriend), but some of the points used as evidence are so far from convincing i can assure you they'd piss me off no matter who was being accused. i'm not trying to prove kice didn't hack, because proving a negative is impossible and anyone who tries or demands it from others is a ******* retard. i'm simply taking a closer look at the evidence against him, as most of what i've seen in those videos looks ******* flimsy (holy shit he checked his third for lings before he took it?!?!?!) mostly in reverse chronological order. i obviously won't get through all of it tonight. i'll be as objective as i can and if i think something is suspect or damning i'll say so, i despise hackers as much as anyone.

basically i'm looking at the times mafia/rossi have said are suspicious, i assume he's not hacking and consider whether it makes sense, then i assume he's hacking and consider whether it makes much more/less sense than assuming he's not. i'm yet to find any of their examples make no sense for not hacking but a ton of sense if he is hacking. many of mafia's examples (ie, looking at my SCV when it's getting attacked) are things i commonly do myself (without hacking).

no one has tried to deny kice/yamama/chobo are the same person, i was not aware yamama was considered a confirmed hacker. i seriously doubt he would have been accepted as a TGM coach or AsG member if he was believed to be a hacker. is their any evidence of hacking from when he was known as yamama? worker rushing to dark voice portrait isn't really evidence in my opinion, i've spent hours helping him cheese his way towards predator, why wouldn't he have used a bot for that too if you think he used one to get dark voice?

obviously there have been a ton of replies since i started this post, i'm not responding to them here.

+ [response to rossi's analysis of chobo vs strafe] +

Originally Posted by NvRossi

Another incriminating game

http://drop.sc/191950
Incredibily weird game.... Strafe is 6 pooling and chobo sends one of his first scvs to scout yet only scouts the creep and pulls his scv back home.

from 0:08 to 0:27 0 actions are made from chobo....WHY?! he delays building his scv significantly and doesnt do anything with his proxy scv..?

Edit: one thing i want people to think about in this replay is why he sent that proxy scv and why he wouldnt be making actions for a 19 second time frame after sending a proxy scv... in my personal opinion i find this suspect. The result of the game is irrelevant.

he then gas firsts and loses.... in every other game he gas firsts he does not build his depot at the wall... i can happily provide replays of this if necessary...

is that a ladder game?

a few things in that game don't make much sense, but they don't make any more sense if you assume he's hacking...

SCV scouting so early is weird, especially when it pulls back at seeing creep (would have known starting position already from scouting close by air first) if you're hacking (and possibly trying to avoid hacking detection?) you'd pull it back to mining either as soon as you scout close by air (prod tab hack would have told you 6 pool by now, you can claim you were only going to proxy if close positions) or after scouting the pool...

being alt tabbed would be my guess for the 19 seconds 0 actions. is their a hack that makes you not do any actions for that long for some reason?

he went gas first without a complete wall against 6 pool drone pull all in, hard to argue that was his decision based on knowledge he shouldn't have had...

+ [response to mafia explaining why chobo HAS to bring his SCVs] +

honestly, this 'pull back of the century' seems like one of the strongest pieces of evidence to me. despite other examples from this game where, if he was hacking, he could use it to gain an advantage without much/any suspicion, yet doesn't. (eg, the ovie spotting his factory go down could have been by having rines patrolling the left of his base, or putting the factory somewhere else.)

Originally Posted by iM Mafia

The reason why he would have to send his scv's is because when you do 4 rax if you don't send your SCV's its more obvious your hacking than if u do.

he could have simply claimed he knew you would be prepared cause his rax spotted your ovie spotting his raxes, in which case it would be reasonable to not take the SCVs at all and merely pressure with rines. to accept this as evidence at this point you would have to assume ALL of the following thoughts from chobo
1- knowing that ovie is there (and about to spot his raxes) because he's map hacking
2- deliberately pretend not to notice that he's actually seen it when he lifts his rax (so you won't think he's hacking). (surely if he was hacking, he would have made sure he 'got lucky' and 'spotted' that overlord?)
3- put himself way behind by proceeding to bring his SCVs for an attack he knows you're prepared for (because he's map hacking)
4- pull back everything without even seeing your lings, thus making decision 2 worse than useless

It's also another reason why he purposely sent his scv's later than usual and only half way, (less travel distance back) he already planned to send them back home cause he knew he was never commiting to that attack. That has to be the biggest clue, this is why earlier when Rossi said you were just a Masters player giving advice, your understanding of the game is no where near the top level where we are.


i don't know his usual timing for pulling SCVs with that build on that map, but they weren't that far off perfect timing to hit your natural at the same time as his marines... i'm not at your level of ZvT, but a zerg doesn't have 2 spines and 2 queens at his ramp at that time unless he knows the all in is coming, and have known for at least as long as it takes to save up 200 minerals then the spine build time (~60 sec) is it reasonable to think that you've been making lings that whole time? (i think it is) is it reasonable to assume chobo has done enough marine SCV all ins to know that he's probably not going to be able to kill someone who's that prepared? (i think it is)

EDIT: Also it explains the literally less than 1 second decision when he saw 2 spines he sent back his SCV's immediately packed up and turned around, even top pro gaming terrans can't make decision's in that situation that quickly, let alone chobo

it's 3 seconds between when he sees 2 spines and 2 queens and when he sends his SCVs back to mine, not 'literally less than 1 second', his SCVs weren't even hotkeyed ready to send back.

also, comments like than final one and your tone throughout that video going through the ohana game are adding up to make me think your approach to this is much more emotional than logical

+ [response to rossi's analysis of chobo vs strafe TvT on CK] +

Originally Posted by NvRossi

http://drop.sc/191948 a replay i did some analysis on, might aswell add it to the pool

Incriminating TvT vs Strafe

2:30+ Scouts proxy rax immediately, staring at the exact position of it as his scv scouts…. In his other tvts I’ve watched… all 11… he never scouts the natural once with his scv.

pretty sus the way he's watching that SCV. he does change the rally point before he 'spots' the rax though, possibly decided he wants to use this SCV to throw down an expo instead of scouting? would be odd to change your mind like this in response to seeing nothing from your oponent

3:50 really interesting rallies for his marines and they are immediately cancelled once the racks is spotted… slightly confusing but don’t know what this means

you mean the rally into his natural? or the two marines he sends in the direction he saw the rax flying? sending 2 marines after it to try to make it burn down on it's way home (or stop it landing and making things) seems reasonable, is there a reason this would be a bad idea? i'm not sure what you mean by cancled when he spots the rax.

7:44 Very interesting Turret timing… it is fairly late for a banshee followup with this build and chobo has 0 access to information other than the fact he’s seen a hellion. He hasn’t seen any gas and he hasn’t scanned his opponents base. Banshee followup is common for this build but this is definitely shifty. He also appears to be saving a scans at both his natural and main orbitals.
blind turrets are a part of builds kice has taught me (i guess 2 blind turrets is cheaper than a scan that may miss the starport anyway?) i'm willing to concede that's not very objective and this looks slightly suspicious, even if the turret was slightly later than optimal.

11:00 moves out to check tower and kill proxy barracks… seems normal however he leaves nothing at the tower.
11:15 Strafes army is coming into intercept chobos although chobo has no information of this at all. Chobo appearas to be returning to the tower when he makes an extremely weird decision to pull back to a highly defensive position and only then sending a marine out once strafes army is directly outside the base.

he kills the rax then sends army home. (i can't think of a good reason to send it anywhere other than home, this seems like too small of an army to be agressive/on the map. if i'm wrong let me know) macros a bit, then sends a rine to the tower. timing of it all is very convenient though

12:15 he has seen strafe head over to the left, doesn’t confirm this by sending out a unit out the front path and proceeds to head over to the left to deal with the attack. Also doesn’t continue to fly is Vikings above the army? Wtf?+

making poor decisions (not scanning to kill the banshee, not following army with vikings, unsiege and A moving his marines into BFH before stim is done) isn't really evidence unless these decisions make much more sense when you assume he's hacking... that's not the case here.

13:58 well position Vikings catch a glimpse of strafes army coming through the middle. 1

it doesn't seem like an unreasonable spot for the vikings, and they were sent there immediately after they took the hits from the thor on strafe's half of the map. (that is, before strafe shows any indication of moving his army there even if he is hacking)

14:20 continues to click directly on top of strafes army. Can be fairly argued that he knew it was heading there but still very interesting and worth pointing out.

knowing a push is coming from that direction, along that cliff edge seems like the most reasonable spot for the vikings to go?

16:40 happy to disregard the entire left hand side of the map and push out towards the bottom right hand side.

19:30 attack moves towards the tower killing the scv there and notifying strafe of his movements and proceeds to stim and run into the natural of strafe WITHOUT A SCAN?!?!?!?!!??!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! ?!!?
either sus or bad play, but he does go straight for the nat instead of taking out the 3 free tanks first

These are the suspect motions I noticed throughout this game. he does however make some decisions that may be very questionable if he was hacking in this specific game.

+ [response to peleus getting angry and defending SEA from strawmen] +

Originally Posted by Peleus

They are top level KR masters, we have SEA players taking games of Nestea, how friggen far off do you think they are? He's just gone like 53 - 4 on SEA GM ladder. Pig was number #1 NA GM. We don't have a lot of strong players in SEA, but I assure you they ARE top level (of all SC).

if you're going by ladder, chobo is at least as good as anyone accusing him...

+ [response to peleus's overlord + viking path map] +

Originally Posted by Peleus

I hear you guys like lines on pictures - Ok.

Here are the viking paths and overlord positions from each game. It's not just the paths that are important (UHF's pic), it's what's on them and how they go about intercepting overlords. The (X/Y) is how many overlords he picks up from the run out of how many are on the map at that time.

Yellow = Ender
Blue = Mafia
Red = Peleus


Dots represent overlords on the field at the time the paths were set (not corners like the other picture, though I could understand the mistake looking at this).



Edit @ UHF - You did paths, you didn't include where the overlords were at the time which clearly paints a different picture if you have the knowledge. Remember my dots aren't corners like yours. I.e. Look at the difference between the red path and yellow / blue with when there is / isn't an overlord behind the nat / third.

you have to admit that the blue and yellow paths are exactly the ******* same, and the red one's pretty similar (only missing that first spot behind the natural then not finishing shift queing the normal path, he was pushing at the same time so the viking is understandably low priority). also note high level zergs apparently all put their overlords in exactly the same places. according to your map, the red viking missed the ovie IN THE SPOT HE CHECKED THE OTHER 2 GAMES.

i'm pretty sure that checking the good overlord spots is the entire point of making that first viking. why would you be surprised when it does that? can you point out any good overlord spots he doesn't check? (because he 'knows' there's no ovie there).

+ [response to scaramanga] +

Originally Posted by TAScaramanga

*in response to sedz*Go away troll

do you not know what the word troll means, or do you honestly believe a clan captain isn't entitled to express his opinion (and should "go away") when one of his players is accused of something this serious?

either way, i'm sure an apology would be appreciated

+ [response to mafia] +

Originally Posted by iM Mafia

thats what i would say too if i was hacking

you're trying to use 'denies hacking' as evidence which implies he is hacking. i think it may be possible you are approaching this from a more emotional stance than logical.

+ [response to sang] +

Originally Posted by cRSanG

At the risk of getting flamed, I think TargA's right LOL.
All the people who's "defending" chobo are from perth
WHERE ARE YOU YAAAAANG

iaguz is from perth now?

you'll note everyone "defending" chobo is also getting flamed to shit, why would anyone subject themselves to that for someone they've never met?

+ [response to Revenant] +

Originally Posted by Revenant

• The first two VODs show standard viking rally for a Terran. However, the first VOD showed that he rallied right into 3overlords(if not more). The 3rd VOD of him vs Pel is the evidence where he 1) does not follow the standard rally pattern that he did for the previous games 2) totally omits scouting both sides of his base and instead rallies straight into an ovie.
  
  he was kinda busy at that point in the third game, ovie hunting isn't really at the top of the multitasking list
  
  
• Ender vs Chobo on Ohana where he looks into Ender's base: My assumption is that he didnt hold down his screen lock button at that point of time. No sane player will look at his opponent's base without doing anything(e.g. sending a unit into it). Any seasoned veteran will tell you the same.
  i know i do sometimes...
  

I've been playing him for seasons after seasons on ladder(ever since he was YaMaMa), and he's simply not the same calibre as Mafia nor TargA to 3-0 and 2-0 them respectively. Sorry, you simply don't have the adequate knowledge,SC2 or not, to be in this. Stay outta it.
why haven't you uploaded any replays yet? also, you have a better win rate against him on ladder than mafia and targa? does that mean he hacks on ladder against everyone except you? :S

+ [response to biggun] +

Originally Posted by TABiggun

When me or Rossi talk about the 'random pauses' this is what we are talking about. I have said in many posts that there are random pauses. This is not new news, but hopefully people will notice this now because I have been talking about this since the beginning and noone seems to notice it.

people keep ignoring you (despite you repeating yourself over and ******* over) because:

1) there are flat out accusations coming from much highly respected members of the community. are you really arrogant enough to think chobo is going to spend time dealing with your concerns before mafia or rossi?

2) your accusations are mutually exclusive. you accuse him of looking at things through the fog of war on the replay AND of having 'screen locks' (a feature of hacks which prevents the replay showing you looking in the fog) no one can really take that seriously.

you get my respect though for obviously having watched at least one replay before posting

+ [mafia's response to delete's analysis] +

Originally Posted by iM Mafia

ok delete, first of all ur a protoss u wont understand TvZ and you could have done a better job defending him, for example
ZvT Replay Enderr vs Chobo [Ohana LE]

7:03 - 7:04 : Looks at Bunker ready to salvage and leaves before queens even get there to attack.

yep just checking it nothing sus here

7:40 - 7:42 : Looks at Enderr's base through fog of war, see's the gas, but moves his camera up more to make sure he saw everything.

yeah alot of terrans double check to see real quick what they missed


9:55 - 9:56 : Sends rally point from Starport(Viking in production) straight to the overlord on the right hand side of his base,

just a random movement decides to go right first, then left cause he felt like it

9:57 - 9:58 : Realises that theres another overlord at the bottom left of his base which is closer and would scout his 3rd command centre plus tech so changes his rally to kill that one instead.

the smart thing to do, obviously. i wouldn't go for the right one straight away though because its a little too sus if u kill 2 straight away just like that. (it wasnt gonna scout anything anyway)

10:42 - 10:47 : Rally point of Viking goes directly aimed through 4 overlords on the map.

luck / coincidence again or whatever you wanna call it.

11:28 - 11:29 : Is planning on taking his 3rd, looks at his third realises there's a ling there and kills it with his hellions before lifting his cc.

obviously you would do this, but doesnt explain why he never moves his hellions unless he needs to and everytime he does it does something. same as his vikings moves them 3 times whole game and they do wonders

11:47 - 11:50 : Notices how he sends his hellions straight but immediately realises theres 1 ling coming to the 4th base so changes the direction of his hellions to kill it.

starsense/luck/coincidence of course again.

12:26 - 12:29 : Selects Viking and redoes his attack rally straight through 2 overlords on the map.

nothing weird here, just good pathing top tier viking control in world for sure

12:45 - 12:50 : Notices 1 ling attacking his 3rd, immediately realises my opponent knows I have a 3rd, what's he gonna do is he gonna attack me? So moves his camera to the watchtower where Enderr's units are to see if hes in threat.

yep his vikings fly past it, so now i have even more reason to check it out, even though i cant see anything and its 3 seconds late, same as earlier in the game its always reasonable to check through fog of war at times. (its also unreasonable to constantly be using the screen lock)

13:00 - 13:07 : Notice how Enderr has some lings on the map moving to his 3rd and he puts down 3 supply depots conveniently to prevent runbys from happening.

they call this the gin timing i guess. but yeah nothing but well preparation from a terran player nothing ordinary

13:22 - 13:30 : Controls his hellions and positions them perfectly way before he even sees any lings on the minimap.

he is good at using his hellions all game

14:40 - 15:00 : Moves out of his base with his army, but purposely leaves some marines behind and rallys to his natural because he knows that there are units positioned at the 4th.

standard terran play. definitely nothing wrong here. just good overall decision making

16:00 : This far into the game hes had 3 Orbitals and a viking has not scouted his opponents base to see if hes going mutas at all, what kind of retarded terran doesn't afraid of mutas makes 0 turrets. At this point all he has seen on the minimap is 2 hatcheries 1 pool and 1 extractor.

good game sense, he cant afford to make mutas anyway so even if he does have it i'll just gamble and lose a few scvs ive ruined his economy anyway. ( tthis is more of a tendency thing, as he only scans when he needs to and doesn't if you watch his other replays )

16:46 - 16:48 : The 3rd time he selects his viking all game, his rally pathing goes straight through 2 overlords and 3 zerglings(which are the only things on the whole right hand side of the map) pretty godly starsense.

again, what can i say best viking control in world

16:54 - 16:59 : Notice how he selects his SCV because there are 40 zerglings at his 4th he looks there before knowing theres anything there.

starsense. nothing else to do at that point in the game than clicking on a scv

17:18 - 17:24 : Notice how his 2 medivacs are already rallied but because he realises he's flying past either an overlord or a zergling he is planning to change the direction of his medivacs but then once they get closer he realises it's only a zergling so he's just ignoring it and going back on course.

gotta do a little dance everytime i rally my medivacs half way cause i can its awesome, or maybe im just avoiding the creep or something like that, makes sense to me

19:39 - 19:40 : He directly pinpoints his army movement to where the zergs army is just infront of.

anyway my point here is, you can have any reasoning you want for why he did such things etc, maybe he just had a good run and a great game and never did anything wrong.

but you have to add all the pieces together, first he never does well at lans, he only does well in online tournaments

2nd he was gold in season 1 then became gm in season 2 (sign of something too perhaps )

3rd he has terrible mechanics but the best decision making and tactics ive seen (sign of something)

4th he plays perfectly without ever needing any information like for examples,
almost never taking watchtowers for vision
never scanning and when he does he sees spires or greater spires so he can put down 3 starports at the exact timing he needs to
has perfect viking usage
positions his units perfectly

like someone this good and doesnt even play much do u think thats right?

ppl get good because of the dedication and the amount of hard work they put into playing the game
yet he claims to never do that, nothing makes sense to me, too many signs leaning towards something suspicious

delete was as polite and objective as anyone could hope for. he doesn't deserve to be mocked for that. also, the fact that you reply with sarcasm instead of an addressing (or even acknowledging) anything delete pointed out makes you think you are approaching this from a more emotional perspective than logical.

+ [on mafia's response to chobo] +

Originally Posted by iM Mafia

whatever, at the end of the day if i wanted to hack online i could and no one would ever suspect it or you guys wont ever catch me because ill be better than chobo at using hacks and my excuses would be just as good

what you cant argue is the bullshit that doesn't add up

you can't not ever practice or train and be good

you can't do so shit at lans and win online tournaments so convincingly

when chobo defends himself the slightest amount, you immediately give up on using evidence to accuse him, instead bragging about how much better at hacking you are/could be

you then make a couple of personal attacks, and close out your rebutle by implying that beating you suggests he must be guilty.

i think you may be approaching this issue more emotionally than logically.

+ [revenent calling the case concluded] +

Originally Posted by Revenant

I'm sure there far more than enough evidence to conclude this case. All the previous cases had never had this much analysis, in-depth discussion, or even time consumed(Pretty sure Mafia and Rossi spent >5hours over this, and there's excluding everyone else that has contributed). What's the Q that Nirvana(or admins) are looking for to indicate he indeed is or isn't a hacker?

is 'time consumed' analysing something evidence now? :S if i spend 5 hours looking at replays of you and accuse you of hacking will you admit you must also be guilty?

if i spend 10 hours watching chobo's replays and find nothing solid enough to call him a hacker does that cancel out mafia and rossi's evidence and make him innocent again? (sub in Iaguz or other respectable person if that makes a difference to you)

+ [mafia claiming yamama is a known hacker] +

Originally Posted by iM Mafia

your previous ID was YaMaMa and you were a known hacker too

do you have replays that show yamama hacking? i'd love to see them. why has no one ever mentioned he was a known hacker before today?

+ [response to mafia's analysis of chobo vs ender] +

Originally Posted by iM Mafia

Just made a video of my rep analysis for those who are too lazy to download and rewatch the rep themselves. This is of Chobo and Enderr

it's about 30 mins long, so theres alot of random bits but if you guys disagree with any of those points i mentioned in the video please say so
http://www.twitch.tv/xeriamafia/b/320424553



ZvT Replay Enderr vs Chobo [Ohana LE]

7:03 - 7:04 : Looks at Bunker ready to salvage and leaves before queens even get there to attack.

pretty weak

7:40 - 7:42 : Looks at Enderr's base through fog of war, see's the gas, but moves his camera up more to make sure he saw everything.

you're accusing him of seeing that there's nothing there on the minimap, then moving his camera up to confirm that the minmap hack still works

9:55 - 9:56 : Sends rally point from Starport(Viking in production) straight to the overlord on the right hand side of his base,

pretty weak, the viking has to be rallied somewhere

9:57 - 9:58 : Realises that theres another overlord at the bottom left of his base which is closer and would scout his 3rd command centre plus tech so changes his rally to kill that one instead.

pretty weak, changing the rally to a spot which is objectively (and equally) better whether you assume he's hacking or not

10:42 - 10:47 : Rally point of Viking goes directly aimed through 4 overlords on the map.

also, every other part of the map

11:28 - 11:29 : Is planning on taking his 3rd, looks at his third realises there's a ling there and kills it with his hellions before lifting his cc.

he looks at his third to A move hellions there and land a CC. he would be legitimately bad to not check it for lings, and you actually have to look there to land an orbital. the fact that you would even bother including something this weak makes it obvious you couldn't find much decent evidence in your 5 hours of watching replays over and over

11:47 - 11:50 : Notices how he sends his hellions straight but immediately realises theres 1 ling coming to the 4th base so changes the direction of his hellions to kill it.

he checks his 3rd, then his 4th. how is that not logical?

12:26 - 12:29 : Selects Viking and redoes his attack rally straight through 2 overlords on the map.

through the empty space then check for a 4th seems like the most reasonable route? surely? that empty space literally isn't wide enough to miss an overlord, if they're there it will get them.

12:45 - 12:50 : Notices 1 ling attacking his 3rd, immediately realises my opponent knows I have a 3rd, what's he gonna do is he gonna attack me? So moves his camera to the watchtower where Enderr's units are to see if hes in threat.

his viking had just flown over that, looking at it to check composition seems reasonable. also, 30 seconds ok you said he was using his hacks to stop a single ling seeing his 3rd, if he's still hacking wouldn't he have stopped this ling too?

13:00 - 13:07 : Notice how Enderr has some lings on the map moving to his 3rd and he puts down 3 supply depots conveniently to prevent runbys from happening.

if he makes that wall often enough, eventually it will happen at a convenient time.

13:22 - 13:30 : Controls his hellions and positions them perfectly way before he even sees any lings on the minimap.

pretty weak

14:40 - 15:00 : Moves out of his base with his army, but purposely leaves some marines behind and rallys to his natural because he knows that there are units positioned at the 4th.

pretty weak

16:00 : This far into the game hes had 3 Orbitals and a viking has not scouted his opponents base to see if hes going mutas at all, what kind of retarded terran doesn't afraid of mutas makes 0 turrets. At this point all he has seen on the minimap is 2 hatcheries 1 pool and 1 extractor.

the 0 scans of the main/nat seems risky, but he knew the third timing after doing a ton of damage early. ender going mutas after that would have died to pretty much any push chobo might decide to do. also, pretty safe to assume there are no mutas out when you hav a viking picking off ovies unchallenged

16:46 - 16:48 : The 3rd time he selects his viking all game, his rally pathing goes straight through 2 overlords and 3 zerglings(which are the only things on the whole right hand side of the map) pretty godly starsense.

are you actually unable to tell that ovies and lings make different sized dots on the minimap? you emphasise how he 'might have seen it using hacks and thought it was an overlord' a lot for someone who does (and would have to assume chobo can tell the difference)

16:54 - 16:59 : Notice how he selects his SCV because there are 40 zerglings at his 4th he looks there before knowing theres anything there.

pretty weak, his scv ended on the wrong side of the wall and it's rally takes it to a spot chobo would think he shouldn't have any units. seeing it on the minimap and NOT selecting it would be weird

17:18 - 17:24 : Notice how his 2 medivacs are already rallied but because he realises he's flying past either an overlord or a zergling he is planning to change the direction of his medivacs but then once they get closer he realises it's only a zergling so he's just ignoring it and going back on course.

pretty weak, not sure if it was deliberate but those few seconds of delay on the left medivacs meant it timed out almost perfectly with his other drop

19:39 - 19:40 : He directly pinpoints his army movement to where the zergs army is just infront of.

pretty weak

Quick Comments

	Dox:	really good, objective post
	mGGDaedalus:	i also am curious about proof of yamama's hacker reputation
	nirvAnA:	Agree with dox
	TABiggun:	You don't have the knowledge of mafia or rossi

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by iM Mafia

Just made a video of my rep analysis for those who are too lazy to download and rewatch the rep themselves. This is of Chobo and Enderr

it's about 30 mins long, so theres alot of random bits but if you guys disagree with any of those points i mentioned in the video please say so
http://www.twitch.tv/xeriamafia/b/320424553



ZvT Replay Enderr vs Chobo [Ohana LE]

7:03 - 7:04 : Looks at Bunker ready to salvage and leaves before queens even get there to attack.
Franckly the attack was over. I think it's only a coincidence.

7:40 - 7:42 : Looks at Enderr's base through fog of war, see's the gas, but moves his camera up more to make sure he saw everything.
Don't think that he would need it if map hacking. You have production tab in this case and also the opponent resources like in a replay.

9:55 - 9:56 : Sends rally point from Starport(Viking in production) straight to the overlord on the right hand side of his base,
From me that Viking patrol is legit. That Viking simply recover map control for s. He has to patrol that route and none other.

9:57 - 9:58 : Realises that theres another overlord at the bottom left of his base which is closer and would scout his 3rd command centre plus tech so changes his rally to kill that one instead.

10:42 - 10:47 : Rally point of Viking goes directly aimed through 4 overlords on the map.

11:28 - 11:29 : Is planning on taking his 3rd, looks at his third realises there's a ling there and kills it with his hellions before lifting his cc.
As others have said, it could be MH or simply standard.

11:47 - 11:50 : Notices how he sends his hellions straight but immediately realises theres 1 ling coming to the 4th base so changes the direction of his hellions to kill it.
This one is a bit suspect.

12:26 - 12:29 : Selects Viking and redoes his attack rally straight through 2 overlords on the map.
Rerouting on same path after getting attacked by queen.

12:45 - 12:50 : Notices 1 ling attacking his 3rd, immediately realises my opponent knows I have a 3rd, what's he gonna do is he gonna attack me? So moves his camera to the watchtower where Enderr's units are to see if hes in threat.
I have no opinion about this one.

13:00 - 13:07 : Notice how Enderr has some lings on the map moving to his 3rd and he puts down 3 supply depots conveniently to prevent runbys from happening.
He has done that in other games. It seems standard for him but it's true the timing is sus.

13:22 - 13:30 : Controls his hellions and positions them perfectly way before he even sees any lings on the minimap.
This is clearly extremely suspect or "huuuge luck". This move must be explained.

14:40 - 15:00 : Moves out of his base with his army, but purposely leaves some marines behind and rallys to his natural because he knows that there are units positioned at the 4th.
Not really suspicious IMO.

16:00 : This far into the game hes had 3 Orbitals and a viking has not scouted his opponents base to see if hes going mutas at all, what kind of retarded terran doesn't afraid of mutas makes 0 turrets. At this point all he has seen on the minimap is 2 hatcheries 1 pool and 1 extractor.
I think he was on the offensive and was not afraid of muta. Could be suspect though, but not that much.

16:46 - 16:48 : The 3rd time he selects his viking all game, his rally pathing goes straight through 2 overlords and 3 zerglings(which are the only things on the whole right hand side of the map) pretty godly starsense.
Standard for him. Just going on being active with his viking.

16:54 - 16:59 : Notice how he selects his SCV because there are 40 zerglings at his 4th he looks there before knowing theres anything there.
Very suspect too.

17:18 - 17:24 : Notice how his 2 medivacs are already rallied but because he realises he's flying past either an overlord or a zergling he is planning to change the direction of his medivacs but then once they get closer he realises it's only a zergling so he's just ignoring it and going back on course.
I think he just wanted to clear the zone. He didn't know what there was in here.

19:39 - 19:40 : He directly pinpoints his army movement to where the zergs army is just infront of.
Just a-clicking for the end. He killed too much, he knows he's very far ahead.

Well, there are definitely some interesting points here even if, in my opinion, most of it are not that suspect.

He was too far ahead in this game to really show if he was hacking. The best games to see that is when he has difficult times. In most of the games we saw with tgun, he was not MH for sure, but he could use it only from time to time, so it's not proof he never hacks.

I will go on watching those tomorrow since now its bed time.

[UHF]

Originally Posted by tgun

My thoughts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZdBFc0i17o

Please feel free to tell me if you think I'm right/wrong and why.

I stayed up to 1am last night going over things and comparing patterns of play, rereading accusations, and frankly I'm not convinced he is cheating.

Chobo generally has extensive flight patterns - sometimes they hit, sometimes they don't. The 3 games on Ohana stand out because he nets a LOT of overlord kills - however the pattern was so similar in all 3 games I feel we can chalk this up a lot of practice and knowing where to scout (it's not even that ground breaking - own 3rd, opponents expo/main, flanks of map). Yes there ARE Overlords here, but is it really that surprising? He uses similar, well placed flight paths on other maps that don't net similar kind of results (ie. OL kills).

The pauses in his actions also come up a bit. Sc2Gears parsing shows that nothing happens in these pauses. People have also pointed out that they don't replicate the standard behavior of screen-locking. His in-game APM/EPM also indicates that he is indeed doing nothing.

His scouting/scanning also comes up. People are saying he doesn't scout enough on one hand - but when he does scout with his Vikings, people call him a cheat. He doesn't scout into the main/nat with air units (one would assume to preserve his air unit from dying) but when he DOES scan in to see what's there - people call him a cheat. If you look hard enough through-out the games, you can see him miss his scans (total wiff's).

For many of the game break-downs I can find suitable alternate explanations that don't involve cheating. The biggest thing to note is that his play isn't always orthodox - but there are a lot of patterns you can pick up between games, even between different maps. In my eyes, patterns are indicative of a lot of practice, where-as if you are cheating you are more reactionary and erratic and definitely don't follow patterns.

I know all this doesn't mean he is innocent, but it puts enough doubt in my mind that I can't flat out say he is cheating. There is a lot of - it looks fishy, he didn't do X so he must be cheating, this isn't standard play, that's not what I would do. However I have a feeling you could open up any number of replays and do the same kind of thing.

I think we need something a lot more damning before we end his SC2 career and involvement in this community. I don't expect my opinion to hold much weight (like people keep pointing out, unless you're GM then they don't care), and I have a feeling by posting all this stuff in this thread I've already annoyed a lot of people & burnt bridges - but if he is innocent, then this could be a terrible mistake and we could lose a really really good player.

Quick Comments

	ToRPeek:
	Rage:	Great post.
	crAzerk:	gonna be searching for your posts as they're all good
	nirvAnA:	Don't underestimate how important you have been, and please don't stop
	PiG:

[Rage]

I still don't think he hacked. None of the evidence has been irrefutable, and the fact that most of the people presenting their accusatory "evidence" seem to claim it as irrefutable sours me on accepting anything else they say. The viking flight paths are far from irrefutable evidence, for example.

With that in mind, here's two replays that I posted earlier, but since nirvana has called for them again

http://drop.sc/191785
http://drop.sc/191786

Quick Comments

Zepph:

What is "irrefutable" to you? Obviously its not a blatant maphack thats easy to spot.

[Zealo]

http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=1201
http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=1202

these are two of mafia's games i analysed, i'm sorry i didn't make a video but i'm sure people will get the point...

vs Inori, shakuras

3:50 sends lings to check third, where there just happens to be a probe

7:10 pulls overlords back over the hatchery for protection as soon as the void ray pops up on the production tab

7:15 - 7:50 he hasn't scouted inori's main all game (or even confirmed that inori has a nexus in the 7 oclock base, for all mafia knows he could be doing some fancy 'FFE to the OTHER natural' metagame cheese) now he looks in the fog of war and sends his over lord DIRECTLY to where the stargate is. this scouting path just happens to 'luckily' also fly over the robo and 2 gateways as they almost finish

notice how he timed the overlord scout with his production tab to gain vision of the stargate EXACTLY when the void popped.
at no point between sending the overlord on this 'lucky' scouting path and the overlord dying does his camera look at this overlord in inoris main, he doesn't click on the buildings being warped in (or even put the camera over them) to see what they are since he already knows. he doesn't see what the overlord is being attacked by (sentries or stalkers) or how many because he's been watching his production tab instead.

he starts spores at 7:48 before even 'seeing' the stargate or voidray

7:55 looks through the fog at inori's base, then drags the camera southeast until it is centred on the void ray. in the wise words of a certain zerg...
"No sane player will look at opponent's map without doing anything(e.g. sending a unit into it). Any seasoned veteran will tell you the same."

9:10 takes 4th because he knows the void is at the bottom of the map and not going to shut it down



vs inori, metropolis

3:45 takes third without checking for probe this game since he knows it's not there

7:10 starts an evo as soon as the prod tab shows dark shrine

7:20 looks at inori's base through the fog, sends overlord directly to the dark shrine

8:00 drags his camera through the fog to pause briefly on inori's natural then main, directly over the dark shrine
"No sane player will look at opponent's map without doing anything(e.g. sending a unit into it). Any seasoned veteran will tell you the same."

8:15 makes a spore at each base, just happen to time out exactly when the dark shrine finishes

8:30 inori starts a third, mafia chooses this EXACT moment to send a ling to scout for the third, which he didn't check for for at all last game. but this game he does, and what do you know, there's a nexus there! "we'll give him that"

8:55 sends his lings DIRECTLY to the only proxy pylon, which he shouldn't have vision of

9:35 looks at inori's wall which he has no vision of. he probably thinks he has vision, but doesn't realise that beam of light his ling is next to is a line of sight blocker.
"No sane player will look at opponent's map without doing anything(e.g. sending a unit into it). Any seasoned veteran will tell you the same."

9:45 note the scouting rally of the overser takes it directly over the dark shrine and twighlight, then arround the cannon and over all the gateways inori just threw down. pretty lucky! he just happens to decide to check out inori's main right as blink starts researching

11:30 looks in the fog at 12 oclock and sends his army to deal with the DT there he can 'see' there

14:20 note how the spire is timed to finish right after the robo bay? "we'll give him that"

15:20 just happens to be a fourth you hadn't seen at all yet. luckily his whole army's on an attack command straight there before the cannons can finish!

17:00 again great timing hitting the 4th!


(i know someone will think i'm actually think i'm accusing mafia of hacking, i can't prevent that)

Quick Comments

	SanG:	These posts don't help your mate. Chill
	Zepph:	Just stop.
	iMSystem:	Cute troll, but all these are dispelled via timings
	mGGAequitas:	this is an excellent point, i'm sure if you are looking for it you can find evidence to accuse anyone of mhing
	Snx.Mufasa:	>_>
	Rage:
	Dox:	this is actually really clever
	Zombie.:
	UHF:	Counter rep - a point i brought up, just poorly executed
	crAzerk:	people need to internalize the point made here, not just acknowledge it.
	ToRSpartaz:	Strong point.
	Sedz:	A++, would read again
	nirvAnA:	he makes a very good point
	FaDeHellfyre:	Very good point
	xGKingdelete:	if you were well known on sc2sea, those first 3 reps wouldn't be negative

[Rage]

Way to miss the point guys - He's simply pointing out how with enough bias, anything looks mildly suspicious.

Quick Comments

	Zepph:	Yes but hes giving his bsg analysis of a gm game. No regard for what you can tell from a toss by what they DONT show.
	Snx.FigJig:	Agreed, lots of accusations are "Of course he would do X so he doesn't look like hes hacking"
	nirvAnA:

[iMSystem]

Originally Posted by Rage

Way to miss the point guys - He's simply pointing out how with enough bias, anything looks mildly suspicious.

Everyone saw the point, it was a dumb post.

All of his 'accusations' can be rebuked by saying it's a timing thing, which means his post holds no weight and is a waste of white space.


I agree in saying that anything can look legit with enough bias behind it, but that isn't one way of showing it.

Quick Comments

	Zepph:
	Snx.Mufasa:	-> Everyone saw the point, it was a dumb post.

[Rage]

Plenty of the points he made were not timing

Quick Comments

Zealo:

i don't know you but ♥

[Zealo]

at the least i'd like to see mafia take back or defend this claim:

"No sane player will look at opponent's map without doing anything(e.g. sending a unit into it). Any seasoned veteran will tell you the same."

Quick Comments

	mGGAequitas:	neg rep for bringing up valid points against someone the community likes
	iMSystem:	I'm all ears
	syfChadMann:	don't neg rep people calling them retards - this is a mature discussion. Don't bring it to that level.

[Rage]

Discussing the existing replays of CHobo is pointless. The evidence in them is NOT sufficient to condemn anyone for hacking.

Until new analysis or new replays come up, there is nothing new to say.

[CHoBo(kice)]

I got no rep left.

TY Zealo

TY tgun

TY UHF

TY Flaunt for your honesty in pm you sent me this morning, takes a lot of courage for what you said. I really appreciate your sympathy.

TY Nemo

Quick Comments

Dox:

i want a TY ):

[Peleus]

I'll leave it as I've presented everything I wanted to say. I just want to make a few more points before leaving this thread.

Tguns replays - No, I don't believe he is maphacking in these games. The point however is no one is claiming that he is cheating every single game ever played. If I decided to cheat in a tournament tomorrow there would be a total of 5-6 replays that are suspect of me, and I could provide you ~4000 replays of me not. It doesn't change the fact that I'd need to explain what happened in those 5-6 replays.

Many of the explanations for example the vikings in tgun's analysis may be explained on their own. In isolation no single incident looks amazingly suspect. When looking at the big picture such as the turn around on shak etc it paints a different story imo.

Oh well, I've said my piece.

[TABiggun]

Originally Posted by Zealo

people keep ignoring you (despite you repeating yourself over and ******* over) because:

1) there are flat out accusations coming from much highly respected members of the community. are you really arrogant enough to think chobo is going to spend time dealing with your concerns before mafia or rossi?

2) your accusations are mutually exclusive. you accuse him of looking at things through the fog of war on the replay AND of having 'screen locks' (a feature of hacks which prevents the replay showing you looking in the fog) no one can really take that seriously.

you get my respect though for obviously having watched at least one replay before posting

Seriously, you need to show some respect.

I've watch ALL the replays many times, and spent hours on my analysis. No need for some dumb condescending post saying "no one can take you seriously" and "at least you watched one replay before posting".

1. I'm not being arrogant at all, people have already responded to Mafia and Rossi's attacks, how is it arrogant to expect a response? AT LEAST SOME KIND. But now maybe its better that noone responds because you people have some of the most retarded logic.

2. Also, my accusations are just a few examples, they happen in many games. I didn't say he had a screen lock, I just noted times when he looked straight into fog of war.

Also, i noted patterns in gameplay such as playing very blind in all his TvZ's and then he happens to scan in the only games where there is spire tech + other observations.

[souljah]

I think that the most important point that TABiggun keeps raising is the fact that AsGChobo has a high tendency to play blind against the top of the SEA ladder. I may be a protoss player, but I have always been shitting my pants at around 12 mins because I do not know whether it is muta or roach play. Hence, I will always want to get the watch towers or send an obs in before then to know what tech route he is going.

However, in several of the games, Chobo does not scan at the appropriate timings to find out if his opponents are going muta-ling or ling-infestor, and does not spread his marines at his mineral lines in the event that mutas may be appearing at that said timing and dealing terrible economic damage. Either he has such excellent game sense that he knows they are not coming, or he has seriously meta-gamed Mafia into not going mutas.

[CHoBo(kice)]

nononononononononnonoononononononononon **** **** **** *********** *****

Who the **** do you think you are?

Seriously guys, calling Zealo BSG... BIG CALLS...

The best 2v2 players on SEA and high masters practising with GM's

I might add his post is creative, and wow yes he's trying to stick up for me because he knows I am innocent... but who are you to slander his reputation like that?

It's enough that mine is tarnished enough already for no reason... Nobody else should suffer that fate.

Just ******* focus on the matter at hand

EDIT: TY Dox

- Spartaz its not swear i promise its just stars

Quick Comments

	ToRSpartaz:	Careful mate, less swearing and more manner. I can clearly see your trying to stand up for your team mate and a good guy
	Dox:	yaaaaaaaay i got a ty
	Zealo:	you forgot best cannon rusher in perth and most handsome random in australia