[nGenLight]

Originally Posted by Paroxysm

I'm curious as to how you can claim it as an unfair advantage? Both players legitimately thought that Metalopolis was a part of the map pool before and during the game, and thus had even footing while playing. Rev may have preferred the map, but Iaguz agreed to it, and made no objection until after he lost.



I understand the importance of a map, but in a game where both players agree to the map selection, under the belief that it is in the map pool with no conflicting mindsets at the time, then the final result should stand. As I said earlier, if Iaguz, bless his beard, realised in the middle of the game that it was not in the map pool, a regame would be viable. Even if it was the instant the game finished.

I personally believe that an Event Report has to be written by the admins of the event, to ensure that no problems like this occur again. But I also think that people need to adhere to management and admin decisions. There is absolutely nothing more frustrating than running a tournament and having people argue with you while you are trying to organise 125 other people to play their games etc. I understand that this may be a bit exaggeration, but you catch my drift. Iaguz initially asked for a rematch, which is a fair call. The admins discussed it, and came to the conclusion that it was not a viable outcome. DONE. Case Closed. That shit is like NCIS. Sure its bad that he copped the short straw, but someone had to either way it went. He hasn't posted in this thread (apologies if I missed it) which makes it seem as though he is no longer interested in what happened. If this is a case then 'sticking up for your teammate' does not warrant a thread to discuss what you think are 'poor' admin decisions.

If we are going to discuss poor decisions, we should ask what constitutes a poor decision? Perhaps this will help us to avoid it in the future
In this case, the admins are RUNNING THE TOURNAMENT. THEY ARE IN CHARGE OF WHAT HAPPENS. Their decision should be considered final, and shouldn't be questioned. You may not agree with what they say, but that doesn't make it a bad choice.

Their decision should be considered final - no doubt, they are the ones in charge.

However this does not mean that we cannot question or challenge the decisions made. Arguments and precedence raised by myself and others have created plenty of plausibility to bring this scenario into discussion. Furthermore, this discussion is far more beneficial than it is damaging to the prospect of future tourney operations. A post-event review done by the admins is a sure thing, however this doesn't mean a neutral-third party cannot weigh in on the matter either, especially when that third party is very well affected by the outcome of these decisions.

There should always be a channel to appeal, discuss and challenge, I am doing this through the forum, in polite way that is not breaking any rules. This isn't an aristocracy, lay off the Admin is GOD notion.

Also, just because a map was played that a player really dislikes (say Metal for me and Iaguz, thumbs down for the last year). Doesn't mean we get to choose to not play it because if the map played is within the map pool/rules of the tournament, we have no choice but to play it, there is NO possibility for a disagreement to not play that map. I'm also cynical about just how much you really understand the importance of a map is to us players.

[Paroxysm]

Originally Posted by xGKingiaguz

I realised it was the wrong map immediately after the end.

My mistake. Either way though, I still think that both players were under the belief that metalopolis was in the map pool with no conflicting mindsets at the time.

[deL]

It is the player's fault, the admins don't have 100 pairs of eyes and obviously can't police each game. They make the threads with the map pool, repeat the map pool to the players in chat, repeat the map pool when asked in the channel. Once the information is out there it's the player's responsibility to play it on that map in the Ro512 just as in the Ro4. It just so happens that maps are something that can be easily confused, unlike similar playing guidelines like the appropriate server, time or game mode.

If the map pool affects players so much then surely they'd pay more attention to it before the tournament starts.

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	JaFF:
	Nemo:	Indeed

[TargA]

Originally Posted by tgun

I keep seeing people say this. It's not. The players have way more than enough on their mind: admins are there to run the tournament, settle disputes and ensure maps are made/played. If you have ever seen the playhem daily, admins are constantly making games for players, esp. those games which are to be streamed.

Stop putting the fault on the players. It's not the players fault.

Its the players fault, you are always supposed to read the rules.. Also admins fault for not noticing.

Anyways, shouldnt be a regame.

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deL:

[Paroxysm]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

Their decision should be considered final - no doubt, they are the ones in charge.

However this does not mean that we cannot question or challenge the decisions made. Arguments and precedence raised by myself and others have created plenty of plausibility to bring this event into discussion. Further this discussion is far more beneficial than it is damaging to the prospect of future tourney operations.

There should always be a channel to appeal, discuss and challenge, I am doing this through the forum, in polite way that is not breaking any rules. This isn't an aristocracy, lay off the Admin is GOD notion.

Also, just because a map was played that a player really dislikes (say Metal for me and Iaguz, thumbs down for the last year). Doesn't mean we get to choose to not play it because if the map played is within the map pool/rules of the tournament, we have no choice but to play it, there is NO possibility for a disagreement to not play that map. I'm also cynical about just how much you really understand the importance of a map is to us players.

I play the game just as much as anyone else in this forum, if not more. Of course I understand the importance of maps, and to be honest, my knowledge of maps isn't really that relevant. I know enough about the maps to be able to argue my opinion and justify my views.

I also agree that there should always be a chance to appeal, but only to a certain extent. It is beyond the chance of re game now, yet we are still arguing for it. If it is beyond a re game, why not try and discuss how to ensure the same event doesn't occur again?

Regarding the precedence and previous cases: None of them were really that relevant. Sure they resulted in a regame, but the circumstances differed by an incredible amount, and the admins cannot make decisions based on insufficiently relevant precedence. I understand where you are coming from, and what you are trying to argue, but I don't think you have enough evidence.

I may be totally out of line here, and if I am I apologise, but this is my opinion. As for the outcome, we don't have much of a say. I believe the admins are making a post tonight about the game? If this is the case, I will await their verdict.

[nGenLight]

One of the main reasons noone noticed they were playing on a map not in the map pool is because Metalopolis has been a pretty standard map in tournaments for a very long time. Revz obviously picked it because he thought it was PROBABLY in the map pool, and although disgruntled, Iaguz played through the map because he probably thought it was in the map pool too.

This however, does not change the fact that the map was not within the tournament.

BTW THANK YOU FOR REMOVING METAL ADMINS

[Paroxysm]

No, of course it doesn't change the fact that it wasn't in the map pool. BUT, we cant force a regame, it just wouldnt work. Now, the only step is to discuss how to PREVENT this from happening again.

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by TargA

Its the players fault, you are always supposed to read the rules.. Also admins fault for not noticing.

Anyways, shouldnt be a regame.

It is partially the players fault. But most of the players will be playing in quite a few tournaments, all with different map pools. I don't feel it is right to believe that at 2-2 in a Bo5 with a fairly important prize up for grabs that it is incomprehensible for Iaguz to not be realising that this is the one tournament that luckily excludes one of the more annoying maps for TvZ.

I don't think a regame should occur several days after the tournament, and it sucks that iaguz misses a seed because he had to play on a wrong map, but I think the initial decision should stand for now.

But what is important, is that their should be a clear policy on this for future tournaments. At exactly what point is it too late for the player to realise they've been made to play on a wrong map and expect to get a regame? As soon as they've left? As soon as their opponent has an advantage?

Then at least there will hopefully be less drama next time.

[Paroxysm]

Also, it is a mix between the players and the admins fault for not realising. Neither party is 100% liable, but both of them could have checked to make sure that the map was right. When I play in tournaments I check to make sure the map is in the map pool every game, and it is a good habit to get into.

[nGenLight]

Originally Posted by Paroxysm

I play the game just as much as anyone else in this forum, if not more. Of course I understand the importance of maps, and to be honest, my knowledge of maps isn't really that relevant. I know enough about the maps to be able to argue my opinion and justify my views.

I also agree that there should always be a chance to appeal, but only to a certain extent. It is beyond the chance of re game now, yet we are still arguing for it. If it is beyond a re game, why not try and discuss how to ensure the same event doesn't occur again?

Regarding the precedence and previous cases: None of them were really that relevant. Sure they resulted in a regame, but the circumstances differed by an incredible amount, and the admins cannot make decisions based on insufficiently relevant precedence. I understand where you are coming from, and what you are trying to argue, but I don't think you have enough evidence.

I may be totally out of line here, and if I am I apologise, but this is my opinion. As for the outcome, we don't have much of a say. I believe the admins are making a post tonight about the game? If this is the case, I will await their verdict.

I would not call this an argument as everybody has been very sensible and polite in this thread, throwing in very good arguments that all have merit. My creation of this thread has 3 main purposes, I will list them in terms of the priority I see them:

1) To bring the scenario to awareness, so that we can discuss it, and avoid it in the future.
2) I felt like Iaguz got the short end of the stick here, he deserves at least a voice and an appeal, which is what this is.
3) To argue a logistic question - a point raised by Tgun/Xeen, when we start sidestepping and breaking rules to accomodate for things on discretion, where does it end? How professional is this? (Legitimate question, not being sarcastic).
4) For abit of drama, because it isnt SC2SEA if there isn't some now and then.

So as you can see, my main focus is the same as yours. Its mainly -> What should happen in the future? However we must first discuss "What should have happened?" and "What is going to happen now?" before we can set in stone exactly what we will do in the future.

FYI : http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=87101&postcount=5 clearly shows my focus isn't on securing a regame, but moreso on discussion and prevention.

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[nGenLight]

Just wanted to also say, I understand how tough a situation and question this is - which puts the admins at a very tough spot. This is obviously seen through the divided opinion. I like to ask the tough questions, it generates dicussion, keeps my mind busy.

I appreciate everyone for being civil, well-spoken and entertaining this thread.

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by Paroxysm

I'm curious as to how you can claim it as an unfair advantage? Both players legitimately thought that Metalopolis was a part of the map pool before and during the game, and thus had even footing while playing. Rev may have preferred the map, but Iaguz agreed to it, and made no objection until after he lost.

My belief that he has an unfair advantage is following this logic -

Assumption #1 - Different maps (perhaps slightly) favour different races. There are some maps that are hard(er) for race X to play vs race Y. For example ZvT is very difficult on Antiga Shipyard. Some would argue that Metal is a Zerg favoured map. Therefore intrinsically by playing on a certain map it will give an advantage to a particular race or player (Edit: Regardless of mindset).

Assumption #2 - When you have a choice in maps you'll choose the map that favours you the most, be it proven in the long run to be statistically biased towards your race (i.e. Antiga once more as T) or you feel the most comfortable on.

I think these are both fair and valid assumptions. Long story short if you're going to pick a map you pick a map you think gives you the most advantage. For Rev in the situation he was in, that pick was Metalopolis. From this we draw that any map chosen in the map pool would have given him less of an advantage (degree is arguable) than metalopolis, because you don't go and choose your 2nd best map. Ergo, Rev gained more of an advantage than would have been possible if he was playing within the defined map pool, hence an unfair advantage as this is outside the tournament rules.

"Agreement" is also a red herring. Playing on a map doesn't mean you agree to play something outside of the map pool - it means you didn't at the time think that you had a valid reason to reject the choice. Clearly Iaguz would have rejected the map choice if he realised it wasn't in the pool, everyone slipped up by making the mistake of allowing it played, regame fixes the situation.

[inFeZa]

Regameeuuuuu

[iM MaFia]

There are rules in a tournament for a reason, otherwise why have rules at all?

C'mon guys

[Champi]

Revenant is being an honourable competitor has even said he would regame it, why is this even still being discussed?

regame it for crying out loud

If both players are fine with it being a regame (WHICH THEY ARE!)

then there is absolutely no reason why there should not be a regame, i see no other reason for there to be a discussion on the matter

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by TAChampi

If both players are fine with it being a regame (WHICH THEY ARE!)

then there is absolutely no reason why there should not be a regame, i see no other reason for there to be a discussion on the matter

Players shouldn't come into it at all, this is an admin decision.

[Champi]

Originally Posted by Xeen

Players shouldn't come into it at all, this is an admin decision.

i disagree,

yes it is the admins decision, but theres no reason they should ignore the fact that the player who won on the illegitimate map is willing to accept that a mistake was made and will regame.

rules were broken, accidentally or not, and to deliberately not rectify the situation when the person who is at the disadvantage accepts a regame is retarded

[Xeen]

No. If the player's opinion on the situation counts, then you're accepting that following the rules is optional based on what the player wants. You cannot have a situation with two different possible rulings because the players feel differently and still expect to have legitimacy in your rules.

In an organized competition, the role of the player is to play, anything beyond that needs to be handled by the admins for the sake of impartiality.

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	|Erasmus|:	Agreed... if the admin decision is that the rules require a regame... it doesn't matter what revenant is okay with.
	UHF:	This
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	JaFF:

[UHF]

Originally Posted by TAChampi

i disagree,

yes it is the admins decision, but theres no reason they should ignore the fact that the player who won on the illegitimate map is willing to accept that a mistake was made and will regame.

rules were broken, accidentally or not, and to deliberately not rectify the situation when the person who is at the disadvantage accepts a regame is retarded

I disagree. It's ok if both players are willing & able to regame AND the admin is willing to overrule his decision.

HOWEVER, you shouldn't rag on the admin if he doesn't want to overrule his decision.

(That is of course unless you don't want anyone adminning anymore for fear of the community belting you up if you don't change your rulings to popular opinion.)

[Champi]

Bottom line:

a mistake was made, therefore a rule was broken. so the game was illegitimate and the only appropriate thing to do is regame the final match.

if they choose to not rectify mistakes then this league is delegitimised by not following rules