[Apth]

For me, the solution would be to run more 'global' events.

At the moment, they're hearing 'No, you can't play with us'. It'd be good if we could say 'You can't play in this tourney, but there's one coming up in a week you can play in.'

Having SEA-only events is a must. It helps build the community, and lacking the numbers of NA/EU/KR, we need that. Upping the frequency of our open events would not only give us an out when the Koreans start complaining that we're pussies, but increase site exposure.

./2c

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	NDG.Stitch:
	TAEdgE:
	krycek:
	AxSGRiM:

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by Xenomorph

lol, i go on vacation for 2 weeks and my team gets into a shitstorm Don't worry guys, a line up similar to my initial submission will be presented very soon, with a second team also being used. Sorry for all the trouble.

Regards,

Xeno - Manager of SPR

I know I keep on harping on this, but I want to state once more than these are simply my views, not the views of SPR in any way. Sorry if I'm giving you headaches Xeno

[JaFF]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

Edit: If, for arguments sake, someone has played 50 games each season for the last two seasons, and is a member of a SEA clan for years, yet does not post of sc2sea.com, can you really say they are not a member of the SEA community?

Originally Posted by Nemo

Personally ? Yes, they would not. The rules wanted by the community could differ, but that's my opinion.

Wait what?? Seriously? You're gonna deny a SEA player from playing in SEACL just because he doesn't post on sc2sea forums??

I almost never post here and probably don't even play 50 ladder games each season. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of players who fit that criteria

[Frogmite]

Originally Posted by JaFF

Wait what?? Seriously? You're gonna deny a SEA player from playing in SEACL just because he doesn't post on sc2sea forums??

I almost never post here and probably don't even play 50 ladder games each season. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of players who fit that criteria

Only if he's not from SEA. SEA residents are automatically eligible for SEACL.
Stephano is an honorary member of my clan but i don't see him playing for SEACL neither.

Quick Comments

	Nemo:	C'est ça. TCPStephano OMG !!!!
	krycek:	Frog speaks the truth

[JaFF]

Ah right. My bad. So that criteria is just for non-SEA residents. That makes more sense, silly me.

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Nemo:

no problem :)

[MooZfY]

+ Show +

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	krycek:	LOL
	ROOTPetraeus:	hahahahaahahahaa
	AxSGRiM:

[Antel0pe]

MasterSPR, what do you want to achieve by having high performing Koreans in a SEA Tournament?

I seriously doubt that anyone would sponser another SEA tournament if they knew that some Koreans would just take the prize money with little competition. I suggest that the new players should not be able to compete.

[BBQSAC]

if everyone is worried about the SEA server being the weakest why are they shitty that koreans are trying to take part? if sea had a reputation for being a bit shit but it was the place koreans came to win stuff when SEA players started winning the rest of the world would take more notice. Glade turns up at IEM and the commentators say he has a fluffy mascot, MrX turns up 12 months later and the commentators are excited cause this guy beat up cocoa or puzzle or moon or some shit. Celebrate the challenge rather than moan about life being unfair.

MKP vs Violet game 2 from homestory cup has some amazing control btw

[syfChadMann]

This league is about developing the SEA community. Not, which is the best team in the world.. but in SEA.

Why is this so hard to understand? - the goal of this league is NOT to give out money.. its about promoting the SEA scene. Grass roots development.. if everyone improves from it, we will be able to challenge Koreans eventually. But its about developing the scene internally.. not an open tournament, but a tournament within sc2SEA and finding out which team is the best within the SEA community.

Quick Comments

	Apth:	Gentleman. Scholar.
	nirvAnA:
	krycek:	This

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by TAChadMann

This league is about developing the SEA community. Not, which is the best team in the world.. but in SEA.

Why is this so hard to understand? - the goal of this league is NOT to give out money.. its about promoting the SEA scene. Grass roots development.. if everyone improves from it, we will be able to challenge Koreans eventually. But its about developing the scene internally.. not an open tournament, but a tournament within sc2SEA and finding out which team is the best within the SEA community.

I'm thinking about making a post on this later, but I think people genuinely have different feelings as to the best way to go about developing the scene.

Some people I feel want to almost protect what we have in a way, and shelter it allowing our current top SEA based players opportunities to win tournaments and gain prize money to 'help develop eSports' in SEA (I may touch on that later).

Others believe that the best way to develop eSports in SEA is to allow all comers into the tournaments, which may have the effect of firstly raising the general skill level, but also may have the effect of the world perceiving our server at a higher level than what it does currently. This leads to many of our SEA based pro's gaining a higher reputation due to the perceived higher challenge they go up against.

Both sides I think want eSports to grow, I think they simply have different idea's of whats the best way to go about it.

[Zealo]

Originally Posted by Frogmite

Admins are organizing the clan league for the community not to see their clan sake. Not a single admin will take a biased decision in a clan league. Before taking any decision we discuss with all the other admins, it takes us time and dedication so i don't really like to hear these kind of comments.

i wasn't trying to portray any of the admins negatively and i apologise if i gave that impression. i understand and appreciate the selflessness it takes to donate time and effort to organise something like this.

i just think something like eligibility to enter should be 100% clear with no grey area, and i see "depending on what the admins think of you" as a grey area.

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by JaFF

Wait what?? Seriously? You're gonna deny a SEA player from playing in SEACL just because he doesn't post on sc2sea forums??

I almost never post here and probably don't even play 50 ladder games each season. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of players who fit that criteria

I didn't mean a player from SEA (resident, nationality of one of the countries in SEA), but some one who is NOT from SEA but still is player on SEA server since 2 seasons. 2 seasons and 50 games seems to short for me. 6 month seems more legit to me. But the important thing is that the guy is involved in the community (not compulsory via sc2sea).

SEA residents or nationals are legit automatically in my opinion, no matter their participation to whatever, unless they are banned of course.

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

I'm thinking about making a post on this later, but I think people genuinely have different feelings as to the best way to go about developing the scene.

Some people I feel want to almost protect what we have in a way, and shelter it allowing our current top SEA based players opportunities to win tournaments and gain prize money to 'help develop eSports' in SEA (I may touch on that later).

Others believe that the best way to develop eSports in SEA is to allow all comers into the tournaments, which may have the effect of firstly raising the general skill level, but also may have the effect of the world perceiving our server at a higher level than what it does currently. This leads to many of our SEA based pro's gaining a higher reputation due to the perceived higher challenge they go up against.

Both sides I think want eSports to grow, I think they simply have different idea's of whats the best way to go about it.

If international pro teams and Koreans start dominating all of SEA's 1v1 and team league tournaments.. are the SEA players going to sign up to them?.. knowing that they will just get rolled, with no chance of making any winnings from it?... Also, the reason why SEA players aren't as good as other international players is they don't have the income available from winnings and sponsorship to play 100%.. most have University or work commitments. So if the Koreans win everything, and the SEA players can't make a decent living from it, all the SEA players will eventually give up the game full time and focus on a 'normal' career. There for in the end - no SEA player can go pro, because they don't have the chance of developing their skills.

If you want SEA to be competitive we have to grow the scene internally, until there is enough advertising pull to allow SEA players more significant sponsorship and earnings so they can spend 100% of their time focusing on their sc2 skills as a profession. When that happens, the top SEA players will be able to make the transition into a complete international competitive arena.

Otherwise, the current situation and more-so if the SEA scene fills up with Koreans looking for easy money, the only international stars will be the freaks with amazing natural talent and ability to develop on their own, like mOOnGLaDe..

Opening the doors to international pro's too early will hurt the scene, not help it. If players want a challenge with the best, then they can sign up to international events outside of SEA or buy themselves a Kr account for ladder practice.

IMO the league would be restricted to SEA only residents.. or a set number of non-SEA residents permitted to each team... it IS a SEA Clan league after all....

[MazEi]

Honestly, I wanna give my opinion on this. I'm not really active in the SEA scene in terms of finding out about the players here since like how I find out about players in the rest of the world. I could probably only remember less than 5 top players from SEA, the rest are just names that I don't really know about/never seen any games from.

And keeping that in mind, SEACL is suppose to be that league where I can tune in and find out more about the gosu's in SEA. If you just bring in people from other regions who have no affiliations with SEA, then the people who are getting the exposure won't be SEA. As much as I would love to see some random non-SEA player whom I've never seen around here before also participate, it would only defeat the purpose of the SEACL, which in my opinion is to provide exposure to the players in SEA.

But since this is a tournament, we should also provide some leniency, like to Soulman, who does in fact participate in the sc2sea community. While there may not be clear rules about it, I expect people to have enough common sense to understand the situation and act accordingly.

- A SEA chobo.

Quick Comments

	cure:	Very well said.
	LordByrnsy:	Agreed totally! =D
	Bash:	this, x10
	AxS.Sorathez:	+1

[cure]

Originally Posted by mazei

Honestly, I wanna give my opinion on this. I'm not really active in the SEA scene in terms of finding out about the players here since like how I find out about players in the rest of the world. I could probably only remember less than 5 top players from SEA, the rest are just names that I don't really know about/never seen any games from.

And keeping that in mind, SEACL is suppose to be that league where I can tune in and find out more about the gosu's in SEA. If you just bring in people from other regions who have no affiliations with SEA, then the people who are getting the exposure won't be SEA. As much as I would love to see some random non-SEA player whom I've never seen around here before also participate, it would only defeat the purpose of the SEACL, which in my opinion is to provide exposure to the players in SEA.

But since this is a tournament, we should also provide some leniency, like to Soulman, who does in fact participate in the sc2sea community. While there may not be clear rules about it, I expect people to have enough common sense to understand the situation and act accordingly.

- A SEA chobo.

I completely agree with this post.

[souljah]

What I feel is that players who are not from SEA should be allowed to join only if

1. they have been active in the SEA region for a long while (of which the definition is not set), so ie players such as ST_KingKong and soulman should be allowed to if they wish to
or

2. players who are based in the SEA region for purposes of study or work for an extended period of time ie Frogmite and Targa, and these 2 have been active in the SEA ladder for some time as well!

It is after all a SEA Clan League and not a World Clan League. If this does kick off, then we could look into inviting foreign clans (not teams still) into future versions, much like TCL is doing but as of now, I still think that it should still remain SEA-only for most of it.

[AxS.Sorathez]

Hm... I prize myself as a non-biased and multicultural person at heart (and by blood for that matter) and don't have a problem with even top-tier Korans participating in a tournament such as this (hell, having players like MVP, NesTea, MC and so on might attract more viewers, which equals more ad revenue = $$$), but it doesn't seem in the spirit of the tournament to invite them as sudden changes after having already published a line-up containing extremely strong players.

I have much respect for SPR as a clan as it gives Koreans a chance to get involved with the SEA scene, but I agree with Nirvana and Nemo to some extent and I think mazei hit the nail on the head. This is the SEA Clan League after all, it's here so the community can watch their favourite SEA clans (and players) duke it out on the "main stage" so to speak, and for players to represent their clans and test their mettle against people they know and it serves as less of an "us vs them" themed tournament than a tournament where "outsiders" (I use the term loosely and am in no way intending any offense), play, since this encourages players and the audience to side with the team from the same region as they. Unfortunately, the SPR guys who were added to the line-up are "outsiders" (so to speak), because they are not residents of SEA and aren't players that are well known, so it becomes an "us vs them" situation, something the SEACL shouldn't encourage, except for the smaller "us vs them" where you root for your favourite clan, rather than whoever is from your region. Based on this, I would rather prefer a 10 team league, rather than SPR vs "Everyone else" from a viewer's perspective.

Like I said, I don't have anything against SPR using high-tier Koreans, but if they do, they have to be players that the viewerbase and their opponents know, and I probably wouldn't have as much of a problem with it if it had been their ORIGINAL line-up rather than a sudden change from a true SEA team to a Korean team.

Of course to be able to be "known" by the viewers you would either need to be active in the community as a voice (most easily done through sc2sea forums) or play in a lot of tournaments so you get exposure (this is of course difficult with the "this is a sea tournament" mentality and I think there should be tournaments open to everyone and anyone, so that these people can get this exposure),

This is of course just my opinion, and is in no way representative of FaDe as a whole.

P.S. To Peleus, you say that not posting on sc2sea doesn't not make you a part of the community, which I agree with, but you must see that participating in tournaments arranged by sc2sea is a little iffy if they don't know you exist, or who you are.

Quick Comments

MazEi:

Thanks for extending my opinion so nicely =)

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by FaDeSorathez

P.S. To Peleus, you say that not posting on sc2sea doesn't not make you a part of the community, which I agree with, but you must see that participating in tournaments arranged by sc2sea is a little iffy if they don't know you exist, or who you are.

I can understand where you're coming from, but I believe in equality for all players, perhaps that is even a fault of mine.

I can guarantee you that many of the "Korean Pros" have played more ladder games than some of the low tiered entrants, who also do not post on sc2sea and almost definitely there are people playing "that we don't know exist or who they are". I'm not going to rehash arguments because it will make it go in circles but I believe rules should be applied to everyone, no matter if it's Nestea or a bronze league player, and I think they should be consistent, open, objective and transparent.

The rules could very well lead to the exclusion of "Korean Pros", and I don't even have a problem with that (although certain discussions are being had in the how to grow esports thread) as long as the eligibility is the same for everyone.

The obvious counter argument is that any lower tier is "just for fun" and doesn't have prizes associated with it. I personally see prizes as irrelevant, I want to compete for the sake of competing, I think the only thing that should change between Tier 1 and Tier 99 is the skill levels, not the competitiveness or genuinity of the competition.

Once more that may simply me seeing everything as equal to an extreme extent, but I'm afraid thats my opinion

[xpaperclip]

I think the main counter for lower tiers is that the clans are all SEA resident, and we don't suddenly have any international BSG clans or whatever wanting to join. The issue only really arises in the top tier where the situation is much more competitive and SEA is still a little protectionist because we are still developing.

Having said that, I don't think posting on sc2sea.com is a necessary requisite for being part of the community; the language barrier can make that difficult (of course, props to those who do). There are plenty of other ways they can involved by playing customs with clan mates on SEA, etc.

[AxS.Sorathez]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

I can understand where you're coming from, but I believe in equality for all players, perhaps that is even a fault of mine.

I can guarantee you that many of the "Korean Pros" have played more ladder games than some of the low tiered entrants, who also do not post on sc2sea and almost definitely there are people playing "that we don't know exist or who they are". I'm not going to rehash arguments because it will make it go in circles but I believe rules should be applied to everyone, no matter if it's Nestea or a bronze league player, and I think they should be consistent, open, objective and transparent.

The rules could very well lead to the exclusion of "Korean Pros", and I don't even have a problem with that (although certain discussions are being had in the how to grow esports thread) as long as the eligibility is the same for everyone.

The obvious counter argument is that any lower tier is "just for fun" and doesn't have prizes associated with it. I personally see prizes as irrelevant, I want to compete for the sake of competing, I think the only thing that should change between Tier 1 and Tier 99 is the skill levels, not the competitiveness or genuinity of the competition.

Once more that may simply me seeing everything as equal to an extreme extent, but I'm afraid thats my opinion

I share your beliefin equality (and yes the same rules should be applied to tier 1 as for tier 2-4 players and I believe they are, if not, shame on you nirvana :P), but since this is a SEACL, it should be restricted to SEA players. Understandable no? Now the only problem is defining exactly what a SEA player is. The broadest definition is, of course, "a player who plays (at ALL) on the SEA server, or is located in the region intended for the SEA server" and a somewhat more strict definition is "a player who is located in the SEA area." The second of those two is the one I see as the definition that should be used, but then, the players who are members of SEA clans, or are very active in the community, but are not located in SEA, would feel shafted, which is not something we want and it doesn't help the community in any way.

As such as compromise has to be made, where there privilege of attending the tournament is extended to players outside the SEA area, but are active in the community and are accepted as a SEA player as such (I would say they would also have to played at least A game on SEA prior to the announcement of the tournament), and it is difficult to be considered active in the community, if the largest community website for the region doesn't know who you are (and personally I don't consider being active only within your own clan makes you "active in the SEA community", it only makes you active in your clan).
EDIT: Perhaps I should rephrase that, I meant that being active within a SEA-based clan does not necessitate being active in the community, for there is much more to the community than just the one clan, although if the clan is composed of a large enough number of SEA players it does allow for more SEA people to know who you are and as such you could be considered an active member in the community.
As xpaperclip said, there are ways of being involved in the community without posting on sc2sea.com, PRACBUD and the battle.net forums are examples of this. Just being well known by people on ladder would also be considered being "involved", but like I said, since the organisers of the tournament are the sc2sea admins, it can't hurt for them to be aware of your existence.