[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by cR.ChadMann

Moreso, I want to see the un-sung hero's and players I don't always get to see streamed in tournaments. Everyone deserves their time in the spotlight on streams, don't just reserve it for the tip top best matches.

I think this is cool from the whole 'tight knit sea community' viewpoint, but I think it's silly from a 'let's grow and expand this event viewpoint. While it is cool to watch a couple of mates from sc2sea play some wacky games on stream, it doesn't make good viewing for people who don't know them and just see them as bad players.

I wouldn't mind a second 'community' stream a la MLG without any of the big production of the main stream (which is dedicated to the group play) that just jumps into whatever open bracket games are coming up (but without sitting around and holding games for the stream all day) and giving some other casters a chance to be involved in ACL, even from home...

[Benji]

Originally Posted by cR.ChadMann

I understand what your suggesting Benji - but I want to see the Open bracket more than some of the pro-bracket. Sure it's great to see Light v GLaDe (as you've suggested) but there are other matches in the Open bracket I want to see also. Furthermore, I want to see the big 'stories' of the day powering thru open bracket surprising everyone then performing in the pool play (ala yang and Gold Coast or JazBas at Sydney). Moreso, I want to see the un-sung hero's and players I don't always get to see streamed in tournaments. Everyone deserves their time in the spotlight on streams, don't just reserve it for the tip top best matches.

Finally, if Open bracket players are picking their group for pool play - Ideally, there should be no group stage games played, at all. If the pool is mostly completed the open bracket players gain an even stronger advantage in picking their group based on the results already recorded. Now while I understand this is absolute best case scenario and not always attainable - it may be possible to play group stage games during the open bracket but not release the results until after players have selected their group.

Whilst I respect your opinion, I think you are part of a minority here. International viewers will not care about unknown players, and will switch off if the games are not up to par. The decision basically comes down to: Do you want the event to be a small showcase for the community, or do you want the event to be grow internationally?

Anyone that does well in the open bracket will be streamed later in the group stages anyway, giving them opportunity to be featured.

[syfChadMann]

What can I say guys - the fans want to see me play.. who are you to deny them?


Seriously tho, NA and EU have stacks and STACKS more top level players than SEA - not necessarily better - but more well known. It will take years and years before NA viewers log on because Mafia, moonglade and iaguz are about to hit the streams in an Australian tournament. In short, we can't and I don't believe ever will compete with them just by showing good games with good players. I know, this sounds strange, but SEA has something different that NA, EU and Kr don't.. a small, tight-nit community that knows how to have a good time together. This is the competitive edge the Australian streams should look for - I mean, my hardly promoted funny games tournament had as many or more viewers than a Masters Cup. Entertain the viewers with something they can't get at all the other GO4sc2 cup streams in Europe and NA.. The stories of unsung heros, underdogs, funny antics and present what looks like a close community of players, humanise the players to the audience. This, in my opinion is SEA's difference at the moment - soon we will have alot of little mOOnGLaDe's running around that will attract the NA viewership - but until then we can promote ourselves differently to everyone else.

Taking out the Open-bracket stream takes out the heart and soul of the tournament and makes it just like everything else - plus it's in ACL's ethos to give everyone a chance - who are we to deny some mid tier players a bit of stream time?..

Also, I know your directing your comments of unknown players that are not up to par playing silly games. To that I respond ..|.. haters.

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

While it is cool to watch a couple of mates from sc2sea play some wacky games on stream, it doesn't make good viewing for people who don't know them and just see them as bad players.

I agree - but ACL has more than capable casters that can ensure the stream that this is all a bit of fun. Sometimes is a nice break from the serious games..

Just my 2c.

Quick Comments

fur:

I couldn't agree more. SEA is a uniquely oldskool Oasis of semi-pro goodness.

[inFeZa]

The open bracket was never holding their games for the stream.

[Benji]

Chadman, I cannot disagree more with your post, but it is purely opinion on both our behalf so I will not argue my point.

Originally Posted by SQL.inFeZa

The open bracket was never holding their games for the stream.

Incorrect, Chadman vs Dippa was held for something like 1-2 hours, there were a few others as well but that was the main one to pop into my mind.

Quick Comments

	Peleus:	Well said, both of you have valid opinions but it's nice not to go 12 rounds over it.
	inFeZa:	This was upper bracket. at that time lower bracket hadn't even started yet, so if they played their next game they'd wait even longer as the bracket progressed mroe

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by SQL.inFeZa

The open bracket was never holding their games for the stream.

I'm pretty damn sure there were players claiming they'd been asked to wait for casters.

And, fwiw, I'm a little disappointed by the 'we can't compete yet so why bother trying' attitude. I don't mind the funny games and a bit of a laugh, but I'm sick of tuning into SEA open tournaments and seeing the few NA/EU viewers assume these two diamond/low masters players are the tip top of SEA competition and laugh at us in stream chat before leaving.

If we can put up good games all day to stop people tuning out, why not? Because we -can- do it. I still think a separate open bracket stream with some of the funny stuff would be great, cause I can watch some of my friends play on that.

But why sacrifice the opportunity to stop everyone in NA blowing off every player in SEA they hear about by showing them no competitive games when they tune in to what some people are calling the biggest esports event in SEA?

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

'we can't compete yet so why bother trying'

Thats not at all what I'm saying...
"We Can't compete - lets find a way so we can" is what I'm saying.. If you think I'm suggesting otherwise, learn to read. Additionally, I'm not saying we should present 'funny' games the whole day either - I'm saying, there is nothing wrong with them if presented well. Also, I'm suggesting that we show the open bracket and 'stories' of the tournament in their good play. Not - DERP LETS ALL PLAY SHIT AND HAVE FUNNY GAMES. No, lets show the heart and soul of the Australian SC2 community and humanise the event.

Before you post again, please read what I wrote.

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

Incorrect, Chadman vs Dippa was held for something like 1-2 hours

This was due to a miscommunication. Not streamers telling us to wait. Additionally, the lower bracket had not caught up to us nor was the upper bracket ahead when we played - so it did not delay the tournament - imo the delay comes from the lower bracket being slow.. I don't know why, but that happened at gold coast too.

[|Erasmus|]

I don't consider having a 'close community' that appreciates 'funny games' competing with the international sc2 scene. And I wasn't using competing in that sense.

You sound like you're saying we can't provide the quality games they want, so you want to just mess around instead. You are entitled to that opinion.

I think our top players -are- that good. And that any sc2 viewer market will not be terribly disappointed with their games. That's what I mean by competing.

Quick Comments

	Zepph:	I think you missed the point...again...lol
	syfChadMann:	OMG - READ BOY.. READ!!!

[Sunset]

I have to go with Chad here. I think the lightheartedness and fun of the ACL Pro stream is what sets it apart from international events and is something to be embraced, not hidden.

I don't know if anyone's been watching any of the European Blizzard WCS streams, but they are full of Diamond+ players who aren't the best of the best, and the casters are never too sure how to deal with it.

"Well, this is pretty bad...*silence*....*crickets*."

It's awkward.

It's not just great play that attracts viewers. They want storylines and funny casters and a great atmosphere, which ACL Pro and all the players in it provide.

At the risk of getting into a Qantas-ad level of patriotism, the tight-knit community with all its unsung-heroes and little sill rivalries is what sets us apart from the rest of the world and should be promoted and marketed, not pushed aside for what you feel a stream OUGHT to be.

Quick Comments

	Zepph:
	dippa:	its ok if you still call australia 51% home

[Benji]

Can't the group stage players also have storylines? Who says we can't stream the best players AND humanize it (whatever that means)?

[Sunset]

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

Can't the group stage players also have storylines? Who says we can't stream the best players AND humanize it (whatever that means)?

Of course they can, and do.
My point is that streaming lower-than-top-tier play when nothing else is available is not a bad thing, because there's appeal in that in a different way.

[Cute]

The downside to a tight knit community is how inaccessible it is. It's all good fun watching friends and stuff try their luck in the open bracket, but for an outsider it's going to get boring. We have some reaaaally good players playing in the pools, why not show them off as much as possible? Also gives something for the people in the open bracket to really strive for ^-^

Quick Comments

	|Erasmus|:	Exactly... you can't expand if you want to keep it all in your 'tight knit community'
	Sunset:	It's inaccessible if you close it off. LET THEM IN~
	syfChadMann:	^ yeah you guys kinda missed the point.
	ToRSpartaz:	Agree with Erasmus and you guys dont really understand what your trying to express.

[Benji]

Originally Posted by Sunset

Of course they can, and do.
My point is that streaming lower-than-top-tier play when nothing else is available is not a bad thing, because there's appeal in that in a different way.

True, but hats not the discussion point. My suggestion was to stream the top level players all day, and run the groups on the stream with the Open bracket being played in the background, offstream.

Quick Comments

	Cute:
	syfChadMann:	Also, not enough PCs to run Open bracket and Pools at the same time.
	ToRSpartaz:	Fair suggestion

[Peleus]

My point would be this -

You need to grab the foreign audience - or stream viewer - within the first 2-3 minutes of watching or you lose them. Story lines are great, but it's almost impossible to convey the story across to the viewer not only in 2-3 minutes, but every time someone joins and misses the previously given explanation.

The only way you're really going to increase viewers is by having great games and great commentators. As part of being a great commentator they can certainly emphasise story lines during the cast, get people engaged and interested in what's happening.

Trying to focus on that as a draw card however will fail in my opinion, not because it's bad or there is anything wrong with story lines, people love them, but purely because you can't get it across in the very limited time you have to grab people.

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

Can't the group stage players also have storylines? Who says we can't stream the best players AND humanize it (whatever that means)?

humanise - means to transcend the IGN (in game name) - give the viewers more content on the people - not just pumping out games. a point of difference. And the 'Stories' start in the open bracket - and continue into the group stages.. The overall 'community' aspect and close community presented is show during the open bracket as what is behind the top tier players. So show the open bracket, present the community - funny games bolster the fact that we know how to play around and have fun, while still having some tip top competitive matches. tbh, Pinder and my series at ACL Gold coast was amazingly entertaining for those that watched it - pity it wasn't on the stream. Alot more entertaining that a usual plat level vs high GM PvP would be. I'm not saying I should be streamed at ACL - nor am I saying shit vs good players should.. but when it happens its not a bad thing, don't deny that entertainment - its something different and a point of difference is what is needed.

Regardless, this thread is becoming more about how ACL can market their stream and less about the ACL format.

So no more posts on this, ganna keep it on topic - and my apologies to Dox for derailing the thread. However, there is NO way ACL should not stream open bracket, would be a bad move imo.

[inFeZa]

Originally Posted by SQL.Cute

The downside to a tight knit community is how inaccessible it is. It's all good fun watching friends and stuff try their luck in the open bracket, but for an outsider it's going to get boring. We have some reaaaally good players playing in the pools, why not show them off as much as possible? Also gives something for the people in the open bracket to really strive for ^-^

I think the idea of it is to first start off steady with some lower league players as you eventually skew up to a higher level of play to the climax (finals) This way lower leagues come and play maybe even get a chance to play on stream or some of the better SEA players, which is great because if it wasn't for that then they wouldn't participate in the tournament to begin with.

We generally pick games that are going to be interesting and fun to watch, and we all get an input. hell if you see a game coming up that looks good then say it! Tell them! We'll cast it, as long as its going to look like a close game/something entertaining, then bam it'll be on.

[Dox]

Well... this thread certainly grew overnight. I'm just about to read all of the replies, but before I do, I just wanted to add something that I must have forgotten in my OP - I'm only seeking feedback on the topics requested at the moment. Everything else is taken care of. I'm also mainly seeking feedback from the competitors since it directly affects them.

[inFeZa]

Also another thing i'd like to add is that i really want to see the stream on TL 100% of the time, it really hurts to see so much production then not many people watch it because its not up there. The difference between 100 and 700 viewers.

Quick Comments

	Sunset:	This x 1,000
	NvRossi:	true dat!

[ToR.Arnor]

Originally Posted by Sunset

I have to go with Chad here. I think the lightheartedness and fun of the ACL Pro stream is what sets it apart from international events and is something to be embraced, not hidden.

I don't know if anyone's been watching any of the European Blizzard WCS streams, but they are full of Diamond+ players who aren't the best of the best, and the casters are never too sure how to deal with it.

"Well, this is pretty bad...*silence*....*crickets*."

It's awkward.

It's not just great play that attracts viewers. They want storylines and funny casters and a great atmosphere, which ACL Pro and all the players in it provide.

At the risk of getting into a Qantas-ad level of patriotism, the tight-knit community with all its unsung-heroes and little sill rivalries is what sets us apart from the rest of the world and should be promoted and marketed, not pushed aside for what you feel a stream OUGHT to be.

Perhaps it should be marketed/promoted that way but currently it isnt, the main message ACL promotes is that they are the "MLG of SEA" MLG isnt about mate-ship or the underdog its about showcasing the best North America (with EU and KR players coming down too) has to offer, if they were to brand themselves differently however...

While it may appeal to the Aus community (generically speaking, the discussion in this topic shows it isnt a unanimous opinion) does it appeal to the wider global audience?, while we may perceive ourselves as a "tight-knit" community etc how does the rest of the world see us? Im all for funny games for fans so why not have 1 Main Stream for the games everyone (globally) wants to see then a secondary stream for the games people would be interested in from a regional level (ala IEM style).

Anyway I think people are getting way too invested into this trivial matter T_T back to format stuffs

[Benji]

Chad, you don't get to jump in, make a point then yell 'OMG NO MORE POSTING ON THE TOPIC', if you want to drop the subject, then feel free to not respond.

Firstly, players having fun in a game is enjoyable ONLY FOR FRIENDS OF THE PEOPLE PLAYING. When I see 2 players messing around in a serious tournament, I am embarrassed for our entire scene and feel sorry for the player's sponsors (They don't send players to an event to mess around). If i watch an NA stream and see 2 players obviously not trying hard, I don't think 'Hey, they're human and having fun, that's awesome', I turn the stream off as I do not enjoy watching those games.

Storylines are cool, but the focus of the event should be on televising the best players and the best games as much as possible to capture international audience. How will players like PiG, Mafia, tgun, Rossi etc become internationally known if we aren't showing them in what is claimed to be the premier Australian event and instead showing 2 masters level players in an open bracket?

Quick Comments

	syfChadMann:	Just because no one is your freind - doesn't mean we can have fun.
	ToRSpartaz:	Personal attacks are not accepted in this community chad.
	FaDeBadger:	I'm with Benji on this one