[dennistoo]

Originally Posted by Exultant

Hey man, VR rush still works :P Build stalker to knock out overlord. Build a few VRs and gogo!!

Yeah, i cheesed with VR and won 2. i blocked his entrance with cannons tho..

[Apth]

Originally Posted by dennistoo

G1 http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/98687-1v1-protoss-zerg-delta-quadrant

Lots of Protoss players seem to be having trouble with Muta-Ling at the moment. Here's why.
When you see Mutas, you sit in your base in fear. You can't push out because when you do, he annihilates your mineral line. Solution? Cannon up your mineral line, and just go F*&#ing kill him. Be prepared to lose some pylons, and probably some probes, but it is better than the alternative - letting a Zerg player expand all over the map, have a 200/200 army when you're sitting on 115/115, and getting eaten.

Muta-Ling is fragile. If the Zerg player is on the defensive, it's terrible. Mutas and Lings both die so freakin easily. The strength of Muta-Ling is that when it's being aggressive, if the Zerg player thinks he's losing too many units, he can run away. If you're in his base, he can't run anywhere.
Go F*&%ing kill him.

A couple of secondary points - Phoenix is a terrible counter to mass Muta. Phoenixes can kill a lot of Mutas when they can micro away - if he's attacking your mineral line, and you micro away, he just sits there and kills more probes. If you're going to build Phoenixes, go harass him. Snipe Queens, pick off Overlords - force his Mutalisks to come back to his base, so he can't be in yours. Be aggressive.
Expanding next to the destructible debris was not a good idea. Either wait til you can kill the debris, or expand to your second nat at the front of your base.

To reiterate my main point - you *cannot* let a Zerg player sit back, expand and macro up. You will lose. By making Mutas, he is trying to force you to turtle. Don't let him. Be aggressive.

Originally Posted by dennistoo

G2 http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/98689-1v1-protoss-zerg-delta-quadrant
G3 http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/98688-1v1-protoss-zerg-jungle-basin

Cannon contain into proxy stargate voidrays? Ew.
You didn't learn anything from these games. Unless you plan to cheese for the rest of your SC2 life, don't do it. Did you win those games? Yep. Did you develop your skills, your knowledge or your proficiency with the game? Not in the slightest.

Cheesing can be fun, but don't do it if you're actually trying to improve how you play the game.

[dennistoo]

Originally Posted by Apth

Lots of Protoss players seem to be having trouble with Muta-Ling at the moment. Here's why.
When you see Mutas, you sit in your base in fear. You can't push out because when you do, he annihilates your mineral line. Solution? Cannon up your mineral line, and just go F*&#ing kill him. Be prepared to lose some pylons, and probably some probes, but it is better than the alternative - letting a Zerg player expand all over the map, have a 200/200 army when you're sitting on 115/115, and getting eaten.

Muta-Ling is fragile. If the Zerg player is on the defensive, it's terrible. Mutas and Lings both die so freakin easily. The strength of Muta-Ling is that when it's being aggressive, if the Zerg player thinks he's losing too many units, he can run away. If you're in his base, he can't run anywhere.
Go F*&%ing kill him.

A couple of secondary points - Phoenix is a terrible counter to mass Muta. Phoenixes can kill a lot of Mutas when they can micro away - if he's attacking your mineral line, and you micro away, he just sits there and kills more probes. If you're going to build Phoenixes, go harass him. Snipe Queens, pick off Overlords - force his Mutalisks to come back to his base, so he can't be in yours. Be aggressive.
Expanding next to the destructible debris was not a good idea. Either wait til you can kill the debris, or expand to your second nat at the front of your base.

To reiterate my main point - you *cannot* let a Zerg player sit back, expand and macro up. You will lose. By making Mutas, he is trying to force you to turtle. Don't let him. Be aggressive.




Cannon contain into proxy stargate voidrays? Ew.
You didn't learn anything from these games. Unless you plan to cheese for the rest of your SC2 life, don't do it. Did you win those games? Yep. Did you develop your skills, your knowledge or your proficiency with the game? Not in the slightest.

Cheesing can be fun, but don't do it if you're actually trying to improve how you play the game.

I think the main issue is purely with mass mutalisk. I have no issue with roaches/lings mixed with hydras. And thanks for pointing out that i'm not as aggressive because i'm just worried to get my army wipe out.

I replayed my reply and i noticed after his failed attempt in pushing with roaches/lings.. i never even counter knowing i have at least 6 stalkers. And i realized i've not been making lost probes and concentrate more on massing my stalkers/phx.

[Apth]

Originally Posted by dennistoo

I think the main issue is purely with mass mutalisk.

What I'm trying to say is that it isn't the Mutalisk as a unit that's causing you problems, it's what the Zerg player did with the Mutalisks - namely, harass your mineral line, making you turtle.

The reason you don't have the same problem with Roach/Hydra is because your opponent doesn't have the opportunity to harass you, so you can be as aggressive as you like.

If you push as soon as those first Muta's come out, I think you'll find most Muta-Ling players will fold, as they're counting on you turtling up.

[DFM]

Dimaga vs WhiteRa from blizzcon is quite a nice demonstration of how to deal with muta/ling, can't remember which game it was, but it was on LT.

And Phoenixes are a good counter to mutas, if he sits in your mineral line you can sit beside him with the 1 extra range phoenixes have over mutas. You can run your probes in the direction of your phoenixes, if he chases you pick off his muta. Phoenixes move faster, have 1 more range and deal 20dmg to mutas, how is that not a good counter. Sure it takes some skill to control, but it is at least a decent counter.
Besides if he's in your mineral, you should have some sentries and stalkers, sentry and stalkers already do quite ok against muta, especially with guardian shield, add phoenix support and you should be able to chase the mutalisk away, or kill them all. If not, I'm thinking you've been outmacroed =/

I think Apth covered the replay quite well. If you decide to get phoenixes, you need to keep them alive, phoenixes are good against muta, but muta in larger numbers will still kill phoenixes. You were way to defensive, not only with your ground army, but with your phoenixes as well. At one point you had like 5 phoenixes and he had slightly more muta. That would have been a good time to try to poke some overlords, you don't even necessarily have to kill them, even though it's a plus if you do. Mutas were his only anti air, so if you attack the overlords, he'll be forced to chase you with mutas at which point you get a few shots off on his muta and run.
If he's chasing you, he's not in your base killing your probes. Also phoenixes are the fastest unit in the game and if he decides to go to your base you have some stalkers anyway and phoenixes will reinforce relatively fast.

[Apth]

Originally Posted by DFM

And Phoenixes are a good counter to mutas... You can run your probes in the direction of your phoenixes

The Zerg player is achieving what he aimed to - hurt your economy.
Phoenixes vs Mutalisks, Phoenixes win. In that sense, they are a counter.
I still don't think Phoenixes are a good response to a Zerg player harassing your mineral line with Mutalisks.

[DFM]

Originally Posted by Apth

The Zerg player is achieving what he aimed to - hurt your economy.
Phoenixes vs Mutalisks, Phoenixes win. In that sense, they are a counter.
I still don't think Phoenixes are a good response to a Zerg player harassing your mineral line with Mutalisks.

I'll try to go phoenixes the next game vs zerg and i'll post the replay. You can judge that then =]
Truth be told, I've only recently started going heavy phoenix to fend of muta, and the skill level on ladder is questionable. I'll try to upload some replays though.

[Apth]

Originally Posted by DFM

I'll try to go phoenixes the next game vs zerg and i'll post the replay. You can judge that then =]
Truth be told, I've only recently started going heavy phoenix to fend of muta, and the skill level on ladder is questionable. I'll try to upload some replays though.

That'd be good actually, I usually just get three or four Phoenixes thrown at me, and when they die I never see any more.
Replays would be great.

[DFM]

Here's one a played a while ago:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft...ails&id=162283

My play could have been a bit cleaner but eh.... something like that I guess haha

[Apth]

Originally Posted by DFM

Here's one a played a while ago:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft...ails&id=162283

Well that's convinced me of Phoenix badassery, the Mutas really just didn't do anything that whole game. Cool.

Still not quite sure if they're the best way to react to getting harassed into a corner, but they kill Muta's dead.

Might even go lose a bunch of games on NA so I can start in Bronze with Protoss, just so I can play with Phoenixes.

[Roz]

phoenix is indeed a good counter to mutas, it's just whether or not you switch ur tech at the right time because phoenix alone can't really kills zergs. There are some games where u can probably pump more phoenix even after killing off his mutas to pick up queens and drones to harass and stuff but assuming you don't, u're really going to need a ground army to deal with their switch.

Other than phoenixes, i think a good counter to mutas is getting high templars and maybe some archons on top of the zealot sentry stalker army. The only problem with that is the mobility issue when compared to mutas but if u can put up a few cannons at ur mineral line or if he has a high muta count already, then put 2 templars along with ur cannons. Psi storms are extremely strong against mutas and the archon splash is as well. I don't think you should hesitate from storming yourself as well if they fly their mutas over your army, the psi storm along with archon splash will kill everything in seconds.

Anyways, those are things i like to do so hope it gave you some insights!

[nirvAnA]

some great advice in this thread

hi roz!!

[Apth]

Just to throw down some Day9 wisdom -
Phoenixes are a good counter to Mutas. However, seeing Mutas and thinking "Phoenixes would be good right now" isn't necessarily the correct response.

If you already have a Stargate or two, *and* haven't been blowing all your gas on tech-heavy units already, *and* haven't already got Blink Stalkers, then I'd think about Phoenixes. Otherwise, I'm still not sure I agree with building Phoenixes as a response to Mutalisks.

Edit: That was slightly offtopic. Relating this back to aggression, and keeping a Zerg player on their toes - it's far easier for Zerg players to tech switch than it is for Protoss or Terran. Keeping this in mind, you want them to be the ones responding to you, not the other way around. Pressure is a good way to do this. Don't let a Zerg player get comfy.

Edit: Day9 makes my point for me!
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4357579/ :12 mins in, ish.

[Calikura]

I thought I'd share one of my PvZ games and open it for discussion. This game was played earlier this morning.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/1...rg-metalopolis

The zerg FEs and plays a very conventional 2 base roach. Scouting a late pool and a fast expansion, I open 3 gate robo and push out at the usual timing. He sees the push and drops an extra spine crawler and evo chambers, but I actually manage to snipe his Lair and throw down my own expansion. At this point many players would expect the protoss to have won the game entirely.

But between the ~15 min mark (game time) and the time I had my 3rd base up and running, I found that there was a huge, gaping window of opportunity for the zerg to win the game outright while I sluggishly caught up in the macro game.

Granted, I had made a lot of stupid mistakes like taking forever to saturate my natural, and trying to reinforce my initial push wasting 3 stalkers, etc etc. I also got HT tech but later decided I preferred not to use them (lol). But by sniping such a key tech structure why wasn't the zerg basically done for? Why was he able to catch up so quickly and actually regain his advantage over me and retain it for ten whole game minutes?

[Torniquet]

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=167992

Plexas take on PvZ.

Wall of text, beware.

[mashix]

Originally Posted by Calikura

I thought I'd share one of my PvZ games and open it for discussion. This game was played earlier this morning.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/1...rg-metalopolis

The zerg FEs and plays a very conventional 2 base roach. Scouting a late pool and a fast expansion, I open 3 gate robo and push out at the usual timing. He sees the push and drops an extra spine crawler and evo chambers, but I actually manage to snipe his Lair and throw down my own expansion. At this point many players would expect the protoss to have won the game entirely.

But between the ~15 min mark (game time) and the time I had my 3rd base up and running, I found that there was a huge, gaping window of opportunity for the zerg to win the game outright while I sluggishly caught up in the macro game.

Granted, I had made a lot of stupid mistakes like taking forever to saturate my natural, and trying to reinforce my initial push wasting 3 stalkers, etc etc. I also got HT tech but later decided I preferred not to use them (lol). But by sniping such a key tech structure why wasn't the zerg basically done for? Why was he able to catch up so quickly and actually regain his advantage over me and retain it for ten whole game minutes?

I think the first reason is that what you said: you didn't have enough probes to saturate your expo. the 2nd reason is that after having advantage with your 1st push, you should keep some pressure on Zerg, so he will feel that he should produce more attacking units to defend his base, rather than drone up. Because it's hard for protoss or terran if they want to win Zerg purely macro. Zerg produces drones much much faster than you producing probes because they have queen.

[herahera]

Originally Posted by dennistoo

okay guys. i've managed to save some replays from the 3 matches against zerg. I tried the normal standard build order for the first game but ultimately, i've to cheese so hard to win my remaining 2 games.

it would be great if you could advice on what went wrong on my 1st game because it seems like phx still can't contain the mass mutalisk, lings & roaches!

G1
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...delta-quadrant

G2
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...delta-quadrant

G3
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...g-jungle-basin

when i saw this post i was instantly outraged. delta quad and jungle basin are HORRIBLE maps for zerg. I think i need to stress on that point once again. HORRIBLE maps for zerg.

on delta quad as protoss u have a "free" 3 base potential, easily defended, and u can sit in till u max an army, and it'll be up to the zerg to break you. alternatively u can push out, and the close rush distance only swings the battle in your favor.

Jungle basin makes for lots of choke points so as long as u keep your army in a good choke position it will be very hard for zerg to engage you. it is also a very difficult map for Zerg to secure a third and as long as u keep up on bases (which is very easy to do on this map) and keep up on macro you should almost never lose.

You definitely need help, not because you are losing to zerg, but because you're losing on these maps. Btw, i play zerg, and i ban (vote out) delta quadrant, jungle basin and steppes of war from my 1's map pool. I'm pretty sure most zerg players will too.

[shsh]

Try doing phoenix harass, expand and transit to colossus/ht.
When zerg have many expansions, just send 2 -3 dt to each of them, use warp prism. It will irritate the hell out of them.

4 gate can bring u to plat league, use sentries more.
sentry imba!

[cure]

Just 4gate all-in. Works till diamond lol.

[YogenFruz]

Originally Posted by Apth

Mass Collossus is still what troubles me most against Protoss. I'm hesitant to respond with Corruptors because if my opponent stops making Collossus, I'm left with a whole bunch of useless units, and mass Collossus is freakin scary if you don't have Corruptors.

I haven't had any trouble with 2Gate since the patch, partly because I'm not seeing it much anymore but mostly because Roaches are that much more badass.

why dont you just beat him down with mutaroach ball with some speedlings? if the toss isn't controlling well it'll hit the speedlings that are at the feet of the collosi, making the splash inefective, while your mutas tear them apart from the sky and roach to support while burrowing