[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

PvP is only hard because it's the matchup Protoss players spend least time on. You can get good at anything, if you spend enough time on it.

Agree and disagree, i mean, practice is obviously still going to help a lot, and dont get me wrong its not like a GM is ever going to lose to a gold player in PvP... But i mean, it's pretty hard to argue that you can get 'good' at guessing the results of a coinflip, which is essentially what a lot of the first games of PvP against someone of equal level is.

But yeah, in regards to OP, 4wpgt isn't the problem with PvP anymore (except scrap & tal'darim). It's kinda the build order advantages people get in certain situations, of which there are almost too many to list out, and the fact that blink stalkers + proxy pylons make the matchup have literally zero defenders advantage, making expanding very, very, very, veryx10000 hard for either player unless he has the lead and then generally he can just win via there being no defenders advantage anyway and blink stalkers also making it incredibly hard to push out against unless you also have blink stalkers yourself because you just get the worse end of a base trade even if your current army could beat theirs... hence why you see most High level PvP's just be 1-base fests of blink stalkers + immo's vs blink stalkers in the current metagame.

[maximusPrime]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

maximusPrime,

Tried it, it's definitely good, but it works bad vs any non-4gate build. If opp is going greedy robo+sentries, there is no way to punish him.

Usually if I see they have gotten their second gas early I get blink much faster. Your opponent needs to get those FF's exactly perfect and not let a single stalker through the ramp because if he does you blink straight into his base and completely punish them. I choose blink play over robo majority of the time the mobility of blink stalkers is just great and just constant harass works beautifully. Getting out an obs or researching hallucinate to get vision of their main to blink up and take out a few production buildings before blinking out again is great.

As for blink stalkers vs blink stalkers I suppose it's up to who has the better blink micro. If they have gone blink though they most likely won't have detection so throw down a dark shrine and just walk in with 3-4 DT's. Since I started using this build my PvP has become so much better it's not funny, now probably my best MU.

[Duck]

It seems like the only time Protoss players need to micro, the match-up is broken...

Given both players are using the same units, it should not come as a surprise that these games are won or lost on micro and positioning rather than execution. One mistake can lose you a Bling war ZvZ too.

And isn't there an element of the 'coin-flip' in every mirror match-up?

[porkchop]

Originally Posted by maximusPrime

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=240236

Learn this build and just win. By 5:50 when WG has finished researching you have more units then the other player off only 3 gates and blink will be finished soon.

this looks fun .. il try it later

[Daboo]

Guys have you tried the 3 stalker rush? (I believe it was created by yongwa ). It's supposed to the anti 4 gate build, and you have three stalkers out to pick off the probe that comes to lay the pylon, and with three stalkers you can finish off the stalker/zealot combo, and also the last stalker that comes a little later after the first two.

And then you have map control and can do whatever you want to. Not exactly sure of the build myself, but I think the core idea behind the build is to chrono stalkers as opposed to the warp gate.

Found a video tutorial of it, by artosis himself:

You Tube

You Tube

Will probably try this out when I'm laddering later, looks quite promosing, but I think this is a bit more apm intensive, and requires you to be active with your stalkers.

[SLCN.Kez]

i have never really played protoss but you seem to be in a similar situation that zergs find themselves in (the match up is a bit rock-paper-scissory). You just need to do an early solid build (even if it isnt 4 wg) that u can adapt depending on your scout that can react well and you have a good next step. For example in zvz would be 11 overpool, you can drone or put pressure depending what u scout, its very safe, but can be macro oriented depending. So if you complain that x beats y and z beat x but not y and so forth then choose option v that you can subtley change to be better against one of their options. And by scouting i dont necessarily mean "oh i can see a twilight therefore he is doing x, i more mean oh i scouted this gas at this time, scouting pylons to ensure no proxies, when first/2nd gates go down etc. Also do note, no matter waht build you do, how good you are, or any other circumstances, you just cant account for all the random shit that can happen on ladder. This was my hardest issue with playing zerg as you have to react well to what your're opponent is doing, and i would constantly rage because he did something weird and wonky that there was just no way to see coming or was way to hard to spot. You just need to shrug it off, play more games, account for what is GENERALLY going to happen and when that time comes, you'll know exactly how to play it and should be able to win. Hope this helps

*edit*I think if i played toss i would actually like this matchup as i luuurrrveee microing
Oh and daboo that map is on steppes of war so im gonna assume its really ****** old and a lot of stuff has probably changed that would make it less viable

[Next_rim]

So if you complain that x beats y and z beat x but not y and so forth then choose option v that you can subtley change to be better against one of their options.

I'm fine with rock paper scissors. I'm not fine with 4wg>>>all. It comes to a line where you either take a huge risk, and win if it pays off, or have to play your own 4wg, which is monotonous and boring. PvP is either you 4wg, or you defend from 4wg. Or cheese with proxy or cannons, which is what I've been inclined to do in the last 20-ish games.

Zerg, at least from what I know, is completely different. There is a variation of openings, that is followed by strikingly different and well-defined playstyles, and there are BO losses too.

Terran is macro and positional, zerg is BOs, and protoss is...4wg. Not much fun here.

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

I'm fine with rock paper scissors. I'm not fine with 4wg>>>all. It comes to a line where you either take a huge risk, and win if it pays off, or have to play your own 4wg, which is monotonous and boring. PvP is either you 4wg, or you defend from 4wg. Or cheese with proxy or cannons, which is what I've been inclined to do in the last 20-ish games.

Zerg, at least from what I know, is completely different. There is a variation of openings, that is followed by strikingly different and well-defined playstyles, and there are BO losses too.

Terran is macro and positional, zerg is BOs, and protoss is...4wg. Not much fun here.

I think it's been established in this thread that 4wg is NOT the be all and end all of PvP.

[Next_rim]

I think it's been established in this thread that 4wg is NOT the be all and end all of PvP.

Everything that has been suggested are ways to counter 4wg.

I wonder if forge FE will do the trick. You wouldn't 4wg a cannon wall, it's suicide. Rushed blink stalkers come at what...6:10-ish? If you cannon natural, and wall bottom of the ramp that goes up to your main, you can probably keep blink stalkers at your natural fighting cannons till they have illusion or observer, which is a while.

I'm up for a test. Gonna try this FE BO on my next Shakuras or Gulch PvP:

9 - pylon at bottom of ramp that leads to natural
15 - nexus
15 - forge at bottom of ramp
16 - second pylon at natural nexus

Cannon around natural nexus (thinking 5-6 cannons, easily done with cutting probes at natural).

Won't work on TA. Will be hard on Shattered and Metalopolis. Would do ok on scrap station and XNC.

[Daboo]

Forge fast expand does not work at all, whenever I face it, it's like a free win. Blink with observers totally pwns it. You basically will have little or no units to fend off because you invested in a forge+ cannons, and a nexus. Or recently in a match, some one went for the warp prism 4 gate, which completely stomped ffe.

And you could get two gated as well, if you go nexus first.