[JuN]

Sounds like a fun strategy. Will have a few practice matches with zerg friends to see how it plays out. i wonder what would happen if zerg went spire happy and took an early +1 armour? I've noticed it makes a very noticeable difference in corruptor vs voidray battles because of void's short attack interval and I guess that would also apply for carriers.

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

What's the timing on 6-gateway push?

10-11 minutes, but you shouldn't be aiming to kill your opponent - rather to force roaches and secure your third for the transition. Having a skeletal ground force makes you far too vulnerable to just being killed by mass zerg ground, and you want to fill zerg's supply with supply-inefficient units that can't kill Carriers.

Really, you could choose any form of midgame pressure (5gate robo/6gate/6gate robo/blink/etc) that creates such a situation.

[Eldrid]

Just scout him. if he's massing roaches attack him any time lol... he cant stop you? You could roll him with 2 carriers pretty easily

[Next_rim]

i wonder what would happen if zerg went spire happy and took an early +1 armour?

That can happen if zerg scouts double stargate and decides to stay on 2 bases. If he goes muta-only, he loses to stalker+carrier. If he goes corruptor+muta mix right away, it's a lucky blind counter. Zerg thinks mass phoenix, while he actually unwillingly counters carriers. I encountered such zerg once, yet to face such situation again. That game is in one of shakuras plateau replays I posted above.

Xeen,

I'll try it, but looks like a totally different build style.

[Xeen]

I think it's the safer option, because you're using it as a tech addition off a solid base (which is already done for ht or colo tech) rather than just rushing for tech and hoping to not die.

Big weakness of stargate play in general is that you can simply die if you're attacked before you have a lot of units. Going straight carrier makes this worse because it takes a lot longer to get units out, you have less (hence less mobility), and low speed means you can't really harass on the way.

I'd definitely not start carriers until I had my third, securing it through either pressure/gate units or some sort of early Stargate pressure (Voids etc) on a larger map like Taldarim. You say the power of your build is 'zerg assumes standard ground play into colossi' - well make them believe it with actual unit presence and pressure.

[TCPLemminks]

So if I'm reading this correct;
You start by opening forge fe, then go into 2 stargates for a void and phoenix for map control, maybe some harrass (i.e. a queen and drone or so)
Once you have map control, transition into 6gate pressure, maybe have like 3 sentries in the attack and 3 at home. Maybe start +1 air here.
Whilst pressuring secure a third with some sim city.
Once thrid is up and running (6 on gas and at least 1.5 per mineral patch) put down a fleet beacon and 3rd stargate.
Start pumping 3 carriers + gateway army.
1a move
????
profit?
In terms of timing, assuming that you pressure with the 6 gate at 11min, you should have the 3rd by 14 min, and carriers at 16-17min?

[Next_rim]

The problem with going off 6-gate is inability to control corruptor count. If I move in at 11 mins with 2 carriers, 1 voidray, 1 phoenix and a handful of zealots and stalkers (12-16), there are 0 corruptors on the map, and maybe some hydra, which carriers just roflroll, when in small numbers. Then it's free kill on the 3rd. Most zerg just do a run-by counterattack on natural with ling roaches, that's where you need sentries.

If I wait till min 17, he will 100% have spire, and nothing is stopping him from getting a stupid amount of corruptors, which is hard to deal with without solid upgrade advantage and 8+ carriers.

Check out Idra vs WhiteRa at Stars War, where Whitera goes double stargate on Tal'darim. He gged at 16 min with 11 corruptors and 20-ish roaches out on the map, with Idra on 5 bases (he grabbed 3rd at 6:30). There is no way you can play air when zerg is spamming corruptors like that (NOTE - to counter 2-robo colossi). WhiteRa only made 4 colossus off 2 robos, when idra 1-clicked into 14 corruptors.

The only option is to either do terrible terrible (c) damage with 6-gate push, which is hard, or get carriers before corruptor count gets out of control, and either deny zerg 3rd, or put enough pressure to catch up in bases and take a shot at it with 200/200.

To add, it's not an all-in stargate tech, I play 2 stargate + 4 gateways, which by pure math is better firepower than 6 gateway, but with less unit count. If I lose 3 stalkers from a 6 wg ball, it's no big deal. If I lose 1 carrier (same cost resource-wise), I lose 1/3 of my army dps. This army comp puts a lot of emphasis on micro, which I'm ok with.

I've already played over 20 games like this. I lose for three major reasons:
1) Mechanics - bad sim city, or delay in timings, and I die to nydus or lings breaking into mineral line. Just need to polish and practice the build more.
2) If I lose carriers before 14 min. I analyzed my games. In a straight-up battle, it is due to mismicro and bad stalker positioning. Stalkers shooting lings instead of corruptors, or allowing lings to get a surround on stalkers. Sometimes I get greedy and pound on zerg 3rd with just carriers, while he is massing corruptors, and then I can't run away, have to engage, and lose all carriers. I figured it isn't worth it to stay and kill the 3rd. If it's getting out of hand, disengage, and come back with more carriers, hit the main, but do a zealot run-by into 3rd.
3) If I fail to do econ damage. I'm still not good enough to evaluate if I actually did. I only see it afterward in replays. Don't know zerg macro that well. I was thinking I should play some zerg to get an idea on how things work.

[Next_rim]

Based on last few games, I made several late-game adjustments to the build.

Zerg eventually gets enough corruptors on the map, and it becomes stupidly hard to keep carrier numbers up. I used to get attack-upgraded stalkers to fight corruptors, but lings/roaches are very strong on the ground against stalkers. As I am starved on gas, I lack sentries to make donuts.

In order to transition into late game, and clear the corruptor+(hydra/ling/roach) blob, I designed a 3-stargate switch into voidrays. Once 3rd base is secured, and lvl 3 air weapon are about to be done, stop carrier production, and spam voidrays. This immediately frees a lot of gas, and it is easy to add sentries from existing 7 gates (when you put up 3rd, add 1 stargate and 3 more gates, totalling 3 stargates and 7 gateways).

The army comp should include 12-15+ voidrays with 5-6 sentries and 15-20 blink stalkers (and some zealots as mineral sink). It is ridiculously strong against anything but infestors and large muta balls. Zerg can't be building both muta and infestors, unless he is on 5 bases. Neither muta nor infestors are hard counters to wpn lvl 3 voidrays, and can be dealt with using micro and positioning.

Why not go voidrays from the very beginning? Because voidrays without heavy upgrades and a strong ground presence are very weak against hydra. Carriers are much better counter to hydra and mass ling run-by, have much more HP and shields, have range, and are harder for zerg to deal with in mid game in general.

[SnoWPanda]

I love WhiteRa's special tactics so i've been copying WhiteRa's forge fe into double stargate voidray mothership into carriers with fast third and mass cannons.

It seem to work on tal darium and shukuras, on ladder anyway. Check out WhiteRa's replays from dream hack. Played 5 zergs with it on NA/SEA master league, lost the first one but won the other 4.

[ZergGirl]

I'm behind on everything cuz I am le suck.

Was this forge fe into carriers the fun PvZ?
(i'm nub, this toss was nub.. nothing amazing to see - just intrigued)

[Next_rim]

I love WhiteRa's special tactics so i've been copying WhiteRa's forge fe into double stargate voidray mothership into carriers with fast third and mass cannons.

Yes, WhiteRa used same style on Dreamhack. Btw, now everyone in ladder keeps asking if I copied it from WhiteRa. Makes me feel bad (

[SnoWPanda]

Next_rim no shame in copying from the great Ra

ZergGirl, watched the replay. its similar opener except WhiteRa gets NO GROUND FORCE AT ALL, no warp gate instead he chrono quick air+1, he also gets mothership and third while the first carriers are building. He only makes phoenix if he sees muta.

From my experimentation, I think the mothership is the key, it lets you defend against muta/hydra before you get out at least 4+ carriers with upgrades; also gets you the third base. If zerg try to snipe your mothership he will have to trade his entire muta or hydra force for it.

[Next_rim]

Next_rim no shame in copying from the great Ra

The worst thing is - I didn't copy. In fact, Last WhiteRa game I watched was vs Idra on Tal'Darim, and he went phoenixes into colossi. I've been playing on ladder with carriers over a month now, but people think I copied the build after dreamhack. I used to get - "wow, wtf, how do I counter that?!?" Now I get "l2p, copied a build and think u pro?!?!".

I've been thinking about the mothership actually. Yet to try it out.