[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by TARossi

I know for sure that meany admitted to stream cheating and not to map hacking to a friend. 100% just as bad though

For those who need context, here it is.

+ [context] +

EveMassacrisM's Analysis of the replay:

14:17 Again randomly checking the marine at the natural of the 2 oclock spawning position. Zero vision.

Myth_au's Analysis of the replay:

14.17 he clickes into a fog of war right where a marine is again. Does not command. At the time he had his tanks select and its a mile away.

But hes explaining all his actions here, saying he wanted to scan.

http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=24422&postcount=69

Meany: "I had to admit, that it really did seem like I was maphacking. But here's the explanation that you guys would want to hear. If you check my command centers, none of them had enough mana for a scan. I cannot remember every single detail of what moving my camera to a certain spot meant, but I am definitely sure that I was attempting to give a scan. "

In response to that clock replied:

+ Show +

not long after (just after he kills marine at expo in the 15th minute) he also looks at fog directly over the opponents army. at this point he does not select his command centre, nor issue any kind of attack move that i can see. fuirther to this point, he just called down 2 mules and would be well aware he does not have a scan anyway (at least i would in that short space of time) watch it on normal speed and you will see what I mean

In response to that EveMassacrisM replied:

+ Show +

Let's just assume you were planning to scan at the natural at the 1 o' clock position at 14:17(Where the random scouting marine was). You clicked your CCs and attempted a scan but realized you had no energy. If you had no energy, would you mind explaining why you flip your screen immediately afterwards to Cosmos' expo at 11 o' clock when you knew you had no energy ?

Moreover, that still hasn't explained why you randomly flipped your screen to look at the scouting marine at the 6 o clock position at 11:57. Were you attempting to scan there too ?

Both these responses were never addressed.

Point is - if he was stream cheating he wouldn't even bother to scan there was just a single marine there he would know that - This means EITHER his "stream cheating" excuse which he confessed to a friend privately was a lie OR his explanation given in that thread was a lie so how can his other words be trusted? And yea don't see how stream cheating can be defended since that's cheating as well, like you have said Rossi, its the same thing but people there (if aware he stream cheated) were defending him for it.

Quick Comments

tex0111_slyguy_golden:

[TAriiChard]

Hi Nirvana,

Firstly, may you please add a feature to the website where if someone types up a response on a thread and then accidentally clicks on a link, they can click on "back" and what they wrote before will appear instead of disappear. Thanks... TT

For me, I've always been an "innocent until proven guilty" type of guy. In MeaNy's situation, sure there was a lot of evidence proving that he was a map hacker but there wasn't that defining piece of evidence to prove him 100% guilty like that piece of evidence I gave in the FaDeEvets case. Even if 90% of me thought that he was guilty, what if that 10% of MeaNy being not guilty was correct then how bad would we all feel if we convicted him and banned him from sc2sea and events as well as imprint the "hacker" tag on his forehead. If I could go back in time I would have listened to Nemo and Cosmos and given more constructive responses but I would have continued to defend MeaNy which is similar to what FaDe has done for Evets.

The differences between the two situations can be seen from their respected clan's responses to the situations. In MeaNy's case, his team came in defense by saying that he was "too noob as a maphack player" and "meany is one of the most fcking noob in our clan". This was followed by a statement by SPR stating that MeaNy had left their team because he didn't want to ruin their image and that a few members didn't support him... What did FaDe do? They defended the shit out of Evets to such an extent that it made them look bad when more evidence came out that concluded that Evets was a hacker. Where am I going with this? I really have no idea but I guess it’s to say that the two events were extremely different with a diverse of responses from numerous parties that would have altered the decision of whether or not these two players were guilty or not…

In short, even though there was a lot of evidence against MeaNy it didn’t feel as though he was 100% guilty and due to my nature I felt inclined to defend him. FaDeEvets was 100% guilty with plenty of evidence thus why he has been punished.

Also, saying that MeaNy got away scot free is incorrect as he was kind of forced to leave the clan (he wouldn’t stay in a clan that didn’t believe in what he said) while Evets hasn’t been forced to leave the clan, and we do give MeaNy shit for being a hacker (in a joking manner).

Quick Comments

	Meatex:	Most FaDe members didn't defend his hacking, just that he be granted a 2nd chance
	ChaynesOre:	It was more about the due process of providing damning evidence, which hadn't been fulfilled entirely before your replay
	AxSGRiM:

[Meatex]

My first statement (made prior to the damning evidence provided by riichard) can be seen here for reference -> http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=190

I can certainly understand the anger that people feel when he gets just a 3 month ban and community service despite even lying in his admission of guilt but I also understand that he is young and immature - while not an excuse for what he did I do hope people realise that warrants a chance at redemption at some point in the future.

FaDe feels that at the time of my first statement the punishment was adequate and even with the full story now clear I strongly believe that completely removing him from the community is the wrong path to take.
I am very disappointed in his actions, not only the hacking but lying to our faces - even in his admission post - and as he betrayed our trust it with heavy hear that I must announce some further extension of his punishment from FaDe's end.
Though we will not kick and ostracize him just to save the reputation of FaDe - we will support him as friends when he hopefully get things IRL sorted and returns to do his time - but we feel it necessary to extend the punishment to an indefinite ban from all FaDe events both internal and external until such time that we feel he has earned back the trust that he has so squandered.
This is not a kick from FaDe as it is an extended form of severe probation. Some may disagree with this choice but I stand by my original thoughts on the issue.

This was a very tough decision for FaDe. We do not support hacking / cheating in any way shape or form but with that said, EvetS is a mate, a nice and helpful guy within FaDe at the very least and hope that with lesson learned and dues paid he will one day become an invaluable member of the community.

Quick Comments

	TAriiChard:	I fully respect FaDe for everything they've done about this issue
	nirvAnA:	True friends stick by you when everyone else has left. Go FaDe! :)
	TAScarecrow:
	Nemo:	I support that

[NvJazBas]

Originally Posted by EdgE

Allegedly he hacked vs JazBas in a Community Open, was bought up long ago by JazBas but dismissed back then. Don't know if that was proven or not.

With all due respect, this isn't true I didn't tell or say anything about this to anyone as I don't think this has happened. Might be misinformation that was spreaded some time ago but I don't think I've versed Evets nor he hacked in community open. I just msged the admin that he looks suspicious of maphacking "from ladder" and therefore watch out for him.


About Meany's case, wanted to give a side story that was "hidden" at that time and something I'm really not proud of, rather feel shamed of (I've forgotten about it too)

When Meany's hacking issue came up on sc2sea.com, all of his "powerful" friends got on the thread and defended him and with even harsh words against the one who brought it up (cosmos I think). But!, not a single SPR member (maybe excluding Xenomorph) and myself watched the replay, but just "assumed" Meany didn't hack as (no offense) he wasn't a very good player, wasn't high ranked on ladder, and hence we assumed he cannot be using maphack as he'd be high ranked if he was.

Then after sometime (maybe a day I think), SungIn started speaking about Meany's replay on SPR channel, asking us to actually watch the replay cause SungIn thought it was definitely map hacking after watching the replay. So we all did, and yes we all agreed that it was 100% (yes 100%) map hacking and not a single person thought it was a "luck" or "game sense" play.

The part where I'm very ashamed of is that I didn't come back to the thread to say that I was wrong, I watched the replay etc instead I didn't get involved in it at all which if I could, go back I would and contribute in making something happen to punish hackers.

So yeah, this is just a little side story from Meany's issue.

With Evets, I'd like Evets himself to actually say something to this matter. At the moment, I see that most people and the admins think he hacked more than once, but I want to hear words from Evet.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	Thanks for having the courage to post this jaz, much respect <3
	:	what nirvana said :) ^
	Maynarde:	I was the admin you msg'd. And yes it was regarding a ladder game, not a CO game complaint
	Nemo:	At last knowing the truth. Thanks :)
	AxSGRiM:

[TATheMoonStar]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

We hate hackers, we are aware how much it hurts the scene. Thats why there was even this thread made in the first place and hacking whatever the reasons is inexcusable. But it doesn't mean we should be so quick to crucify a former respected member of this community and offer him no chance of redemption.

Personally, I feel that it does.

Quick Comments

Spud:

U are the moonstar

[FaDeEvetS]

With Evets, I'd like Evets himself to actually say something to this matter. At the moment, I see that most people and the admins think he hacked more than once, but I want to hear words from Evet.

in response to jazbaz:
yes i did, i admit it and apologise, i did it very rarely at first then it became 'addictive' as it was so easy and i got away with it etc.
I haven't been 'dodging' or avoiding the issue, i'm merely taking a step back until irl stuff is fixed up. so yes i admit it and i'm sorry etc, but i won't be making a super formal apology for awhile. Just posting this to say yes, i obviously fully admit it

edit: and thanks for pointing out that the hacked games weren't CO games etc.

Quick Comments

	NvJazBas:	Thanks for this
	x5.Revenant:	Lost my trust completely, sorry.

[nGenLight]

Well personally, cheating in a major competitive game such as StarCraft II with such a large community deserves a severe punishment on the fringe of banishment, regardless of screen cheating or maphacking. In my personal opinion, any caught cheaters should deserve at least 6 months - This is simply an offense too great to be lenient towards. I missed the entire meany drama until now, but IMO they should both get a very long ban. Though I do have to say that going through the net looking for maphack takes a more severe desire to cheat than to stream cheat - and either way we cannot prove if Meany stream cheated or simply maphacked, so IMO the same punishment is needed.

The defense that he was a former respected member is weak - The fact that he got to respectability through possible cheating and cheating behind a respectable name is pretty disgusting.

The hardest thing is that outside of subjective opinion, we do not possess any technology that could prove anyone of actually cheating. In Dota, a good player's usual defense towards cheating accusations was superior insight. So whether we need to invest in more technology or get all seriousA and/or adopt a panel of respected juries, it will take some serious progress before we can actively weed out the cheaters.

It looks like the mods have made up their decision on this matter - to allow the subject a very quick chance to redemption. Although I echo numerous voices in the community by taking a harder stance (moreso because the subjects lied multiple times about it), the decision is very understandable.

[RicocheT]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

The hardest thing is that outside of subjective opinion, we do not possess any technology that could prove anyone of actually cheating. In Dota, a good player's usual defense towards cheating accusations was superior insight. So whether we need to invest in more technology or get all seriousA and/or adopt a panel of respected juries, it will take some serious progress before we can actively weed out the cheaters.

Are you familiar with a PVPGN server by the name of Bored Aussies? They have a maphacking sort of 'jury' as you would call it who watch through replays and only ban with conclusive evidence, mostly centred around DotA.
Of course this is completely different as there are tools for Warcraft 3 that help them detect, but I think a sort of same thing here would actually be helpful. Of course we would need to gather more than 1 replay, maybe I dont know, a number of 5~ or so replays, unless it's so bloody blatant that you don't need more than one replay.

Would need to find the most trustworthy and unbiased jury however, and finding a way of moderating them.

Just my 2 cents.

Quick Comments

Flamga:

agreed

[ChaynesOre]

I'll echo that thing riiChard said earlier about the losing your entire text when it doesn't think you're logged in and you have to go back in the browser :S

I think somebody mentioned this way back in the thread but having just made EvetS the example/lesson/warning for everybody in the SEA scene, I imagine there'll be a much harsher penalty next time somebody is caught. And I'm not telling you guys how to do your job here because you're legends, but perhaps a written policy for your stance on hacking will serve as both a deterrent and a non-debatable platform from which to base punishments?

As for the Blizzard/clan issues, those should be their business only. As a member of FaDe, I'm personally quite happy with how things have turned out. I'll echo what Meatex said earlier in that a lot (hours upon hours) of discussion went into dealing with this over the past two days. I find it curious however how much pressure there is on a clan to act on something like this. Regardless of what we decided to do, it should remain only our business, and I think it's a shame we're somewhat forced into dolling out a harsher punishment for PR sake if nothing else (although I do happen to agree with it). It's simplistically logical for an outsider to think "a FaDe member hacks, the clan doesn't kick him? they're all hackers / support hacking and a bad clan" but I don't know how many people would truly believe that, although it's kind of the thing everybody is assuming in the back of their minds. I just think everything gets somewhat muddled in the politics and messages a bit too much, but such is community life I guess.

See you all next year.. I'mma go get drunk now.

[Cute]

Originally Posted by chaynesore

Regardless of what we decided to do, it should remain only our business, and I think it's a shame we're somewhat forced into dolling out a harsher punishment for PR sake if nothing else (although I do happen to agree with it). It's simplistically logical for an outsider to think "a FaDe member hacks, the clan doesn't kick him? they're all hackers / support hacking and a bad clan" but I don't know how many people would truly believe that, although it's kind of the thing everybody is assuming in the back of their minds. I just think everything gets somewhat muddled in the politics and messages a bit too much, but such is community life I guess.

See you all next year.. I'mma go get drunk now.

I don't believe many people think that. If anything, I see a lot of support for FaDe members for sticking by their friend. He told them he only did it once. They're his friends, why wouldn't they support him? I can't see how anyone can be upset with the way FaDe members acted. It's sure as hell what I'd do.

Quick Comments

	EveJeonSa:
	Nemo:	Agreed

[crAzerk]

Originally Posted by FadeRicochet

Would need to find the most trustworthy and unbiased jury however, and finding a way of moderating them.

I don't think a formal jury just for this is necessary just because hacking (seemingly) isn't that regular an occurrence to justify such a group.
What we have now is sufficient IMO, in that our 'jury' is basically the admin/moderating team of SC2SEA.


While I don't agree with what chaynesore said, this is good:

but perhaps a written policy for your stance on hacking will serve as both a deterrent and a non-debatable platform from which to base punishments?

CC: nirvAnA!

[Snx`Azz]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but there used to be a clan called x-17 in broodwar and it was a pretty well known hacker team.

Is this the same evets we talking about? Evetsx-17?

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

[tex0111_slyguy_golden]

I watched the replay of FadeEvets and Marc and I didn't notice any cheating, yes the drone pull off at the expansion was weird but he was only 250 minerals and with the 3 drones he might of did that because of the late pool to check for a bunker and the overlord never saw the drone leave the area even thought it wasn't revealing whole ramp at the expansion and if he was map hacking why would he move his overseer at Marc's 2nd expansion to see what's going on at the 3rd expansion?

Plus I watched whole replay in Marc point of view and watched for any of FadeEvets clicking on Marc' units and there was none at all that I could find so he couldn't be cheating and where has he admitted to cheating as the link says FadeEvets admint's to cheating?

only reason I checked this out is becuase I never cheat and never will, so I like to find outif ppl do.

Quick Comments

	TCPKiaSu:	read the thread dude.... evets admitted to hacking already and he lied 2 times :(
	NvJazBas:	^
	mGGDaedalus:	post
	Fourby:	Use more fullstops and comma's i feel out of breath even reading your post in my head
	NvRossi:	Get a new head
	JaFF:	what deathwing said
	RicocheT:	*tactical face palm*
	TragicHero:	D:
	AxSGRiM:	hurt my soul
	Drizabone:	A+ for effort
	Dox:	engrish
	SLCN.NXZ:	I thought that guy in the naniwa thread was the most ridiculous a post on these forums could get, you proved me wrong
	iM yang:	what a head
	Zanderax:	Doesn't deserve that! Offsetting a bit
	FaDeBadger:	Does deserve it
	EveMassacrisM:	What what the the f*** f*** ? - Day9
	TAScarecrow:	deserved
	wolf:	this guy
	nirvAnA:	lesson learned. chin up mate, just be sure to read the thread first next time :)
	TAEdarus:	..|..

[TASponge]

He only admitted to it cause he got caught, as he said"it was easy to get away with". Doesn't deserve any sympathy.

[TAEdgE]

Originally Posted by xGKingJazBas

With all due respect, this isn't true I didn't tell or say anything about this to anyone as I don't think this has happened. Might be misinformation that was spreaded some time ago but I don't think I've versed Evets nor he hacked in community open. I just msged the admin that he looks suspicious of maphacking "from ladder" and therefore watch out for him.


About Meany's case, wanted to give a side story that was "hidden" at that time and something I'm really not proud of, rather feel shamed of (I've forgotten about it too)

When Meany's hacking issue came up on sc2sea.com, all of his "powerful" friends got on the thread and defended him and with even harsh words against the one who brought it up (cosmos I think). But!, not a single SPR member (maybe excluding Xenomorph) and myself watched the replay, but just "assumed" Meany didn't hack as (no offense) he wasn't a very good player, wasn't high ranked on ladder, and hence we assumed he cannot be using maphack as he'd be high ranked if he was.

Then after sometime (maybe a day I think), SungIn started speaking about Meany's replay on SPR channel, asking us to actually watch the replay cause SungIn thought it was definitely map hacking after watching the replay. So we all did, and yes we all agreed that it was 100% (yes 100%) map hacking and not a single person thought it was a "luck" or "game sense" play.

The part where I'm very ashamed of is that I didn't come back to the thread to say that I was wrong, I watched the replay etc instead I didn't get involved in it at all which if I could, go back I would and contribute in making something happen to punish hackers.

So yeah, this is just a little side story from Meany's issue.

With Evets, I'd like Evets himself to actually say something to this matter. At the moment, I see that most people and the admins think he hacked more than once, but I want to hear words from Evet.

With all due respect? I wasn't offended by you clearing up that I wasn't right haha, and I used 'allegedly' and 'not proven' for a reason. If it wasn't formally raised as i thought then sorry.

[NvJazBas]

Originally Posted by EdgE

With all due respect? I wasn't offended by you clearing up that I wasn't right haha, and I used 'allegedly' and 'not proven' for a reason. If it wasn't formally raised as i thought then sorry.

Sorry lol I didn't know what allegedly meant..LOL no need to be sorry! and I need to raise my vocab level..god damn

Quick Comments

mGGDaedalus:

and you call yourself the perfect human :)

[Strafe]

Maphacking is just very sad. Just ban him indefinitely until you decide to give him another chance. 3 months is so little, and so is 6. Imo you shouldn't be allowed to compete for a long time when you do such thing otherwise it just doesn't seem like a big deal at all.

And lol at still sucking so hard when you maphack

Quick Comments

	TargA:	hahaha
	MooZfY:	I sooooooooooooooooooo argree
	TAScarecrow:
	TASponge:
	x5.Revenant:	Baller!
	nirvAnA:	easy to kick someone when he's down. cmon strafe ^_^ ~!
	TAEdarus:	Minus the jab at his skill, I agree.

[Spud]

Originally Posted by Volition

Is the moral of the story that if you are going to cheat, you better have high friends in the sc2sea community??

LOL. High friends a;lkdfja;lkdf. That makes me laugh.

On the hacking, Ive always wondered how retarded the motives for hacking are. Why do people actually do it, is it to be famous on the interwebs at a computer game? So you can act like a mobster on b.net or something? If you get a power-trip from Starcraft u might need more than a 3month ban, maybe a 3year stint is a psych ward.

Quick Comments

TAEdarus:

The voice of Voices voices its opinion

[wolf]

I agree with Light's latest post. I think 3 months which was reduced to 2 is too weak of a precedent for other cases that are sure to follow. Personally, I believe 6 months would be adequate for this type of situation, with 12 months given if the person doesn't come clean. To those saying that this would be e-death for him within the scene, I'd say that it was his own fault in the first place to use the hack. Responsibility doesn't fall on the courts system when a person is found guilty of child molestation (lol Light, , any crime, really). This is the premier site for an entire server, and in my opinion the punishment needs to be higher, regardless of who it is.

Quick Comments

	ToRsupapower:	Doesn't matter who it is really, they all deserve a proper punishment
	Strafe:

[Nemo]

I can understand people are angry with them and want harder punishment than 2 or 3 months. But don't forget it's already harder since there is community work too.

It's easy to forget but I can tell from the very few I do myself that's a lot of work and dedication. It's not because Nirvana and other do a crazy amount of work here that it's all fun and pleasure. It's actually working for others, but it's still working.

If people want more punishment, then let's make the community work harder. For example it could be doing paid coaching for people and payment is given to sc2sea instead. The player could not come back in tournament until 200$ is paid by satisfied coached players to the site. The player could not pay himself and must have positive feedback from each coached student.

He must make a thread himself, search for people who would want paid coaching etc. He can search outside sc2sea, in NA forum or EU etc. It's even better if he searches outside so not make competition to other payed coaches like PiG for example.

Gaining 200$ for the site is not so easy (if you think so, just try ) and would ease the anger of people (especially those who could win it in a tournament) against him. It would also help him redeem himself by working for others by his coaching.

6 month of tournament ban or 3 (or 2) months with hard community work. The culprits can choose. It would be easier to do for people who has already the habit to help. That's all good.

The 200$ might be too much, I don't know. It's yours to say.

There are so better ways of punishing someone for "light" crimes than just letting passing time. Construction and redeeming by work and help is so much better.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	haha nemo no $$ necessary. i was thinking he gives back like 20 hours of free coaching to the community
	mGGDaedalus:	3mths with proven dedication means more than 6months of nothing