[Bloodmyst]

May I just say, why do we not see Terrans try to get Cattle Bruisers instead of Vikings to Combat
Collossi?

So many times I have seen professional T v P games where both armies are maxed out and neither army are engaging unil they are comfortable with maxed out upgrades and/or in a very advantageous army position.

But before we get ahead of ourselves, please take a moment to compare the Viking and Battlecruiser.

Viking | Battlecruiser

Now so much can be said for the early game. This is a different story. But for now, lets us focus more on late game T v P. Generally speaking, 4 Collossi seems to be the magic number of Protoss deathballs. Don't 4 Battlecruisers with yamato scale much better against 4 Collossi then 10 Vikings? Assuming you produce 4 Vikings for the initial Colli and add an extra 2 for every Colli after that.

Lets compare having Battlecruisers in your army composition instead of Vikings. Here I will assume that Protoss has 4 Collossi, normally you get 10 Vikings but instead for this match you opt to go for 4 Battlecruisers;

- 10 Vikings cost 1500 minerals and 750 Gas, 4 Battlecruisers cost only 100 extra minerals and 450 extra Gas. It's not like gas is a problem for Terran late game since we do not have a gas dump unit like zerg and protoss does.

- Instead of researching +1 attack, you would research the Yamato ability which is only 50 gas and 50 minerals more then researching +1.

- 10 Vikings = 1250 HP, 4 Battlecruisers = 2200 HP and this is not considering the fact the Vikings have 0 armour unupgraded and Battlecruisers have 3 armour when unupgraded.

- You do have to wait for the energy to stack up for utilising Yamato. However, 10 vikings will dish out 100 DPS, whereas 4 Battlecruisers will do 106.8 DPS. Remember 1 Yamato almost takes out 1 Collossi.

- I don't mean to state the obvious here, but Battlecruisers can shoot ground while still being in the air where the Viking cannot do this. This definitely helps against the after warp-in of chargelots.

- Battlecruisers have energy leaving them vulnerable for feedback. Now at a glance, I thought this was a disadvantage.... however I'm not so sure this is true considering you are now putting pressure on Protoss to decide if it is better to hit storm on the bio or feedback the Battlecruisers.

- This is more of an assumption, but also a question. A Battlecruiser would mitigate the splash of an Archon considering the size of the unit?

- 1 major disadvantage would be the fact BC's move around much much slower then Vikings. However, the Battlecruiser has 2 more sight then a Viking, thus making it easier for ghosts to land those critical EMPS/Snipes on the High Templar?

- If you decide on engaging first with the Ghosts and BC's, is not that hard to avoid feedback well you not only have the extra range ghosts have over the HT, but also the movement speed of BC's is the equivalent of HT.

I can keep going through comparisions, but I don't know.... maybe some of you GM's out there could explain to us why Vikings are better then BC's when going up against the Deathball? I mean, yeh early game we need to get vikings considering the time it takes to actually get BC's out... .but once it gets to late game, isn't yamato a much better tool to have in your composition for Collossi/Archon Tech switches instead of having a unit which is utter crap in ground mode? why not start saccing Vikings in order to get some BC's out?

Sorry if this post is poorly constructed post, but I'm a lil bit tipsy atm..... been having a few drinks with mates while watching streams.... ><

[x5_Potter]

I think the build time is also a factor. If the BC's die then it's a bigger problem then if the vikings die. Also, they can get colossus out quick then the BC's come out I believe. Another positive for vikings is if they catch the colossus out of position they can deal their first volley of damage quicker than BC's can and then run away.

[mGGAequitas]

bloodmyst the main reason terrans don't get bc's is because it is T3: terrans like to only get T1 units and then bitch about how protoss is imba late game

[Bloodmyst]

75 seconds build time for Collossus. However with Chronoboost, 37.5 seconds against the 90 second build time of the Battlecruiser. The Collossi is also 100 minerals and 100 Gas cheaper then the BC.

Hmmmmm......

I think the key factor with BC's against Collossi is the Yamato upgrade (in which case will kill the Collossi at a MUCH faster rate then Vikings would), also not to mention how tanky they are. Also, thinking along the lines of repair as long as you can retain your BC's they would be much more cost effective.

EDIT: So it's probably more wiser to research Weapon Refit and Behemoth Reactor and finish them before you start producing them?

2nd EDIT: This would also force more stalkers which is not such a bad thing considering if the Protoss wishes to blink his stalkers under the BC, there is a chance he call wall his chargelots off from slashing into your bio....

[Baldie]

Just wait until HotS where BCs get a speed boost on a cooldown.. shit get real then

[ROOT`iaguz]

No.

You can kinda go BC's late late late late game on a huge map like entombed or TDA and get 3/3 when you're at 18 bases and your massive bio balls just keep bouncing off his death ball, but they aren't more efficient then vikings.

Vikings have superior range, BC's get fedback by templars so they never get to yamato ever (they don't use energy until after the shot goes off so that's like 1230123123123 seconds to get fb'd). Vikings do really good damage even with crappy upgrades, BC's dont. BCs take forever to bloody build too, and you generally don't have time to switch into mass tech lab and get a core going unless, again, you're at 6+ bases and he just won't die.

[wTlzq]

1) better kiting potential of vikings. even if they get caught out of position they still have a good chance of getting away alive

2) Faster production rate, 2 at a time. longer range. Easily dispensable

3) terrans do not want to switch from reactor ports to tech-ports. Its a hassle to change add-on when they stop/resume making medivacs. U cant just get BC when u feel like it, u have to get the upgrades and produce 2-3 BCs at a time to get return on your investment

4)better map control. etc snipe dropships, overlords sniping or chasing of colosus

edit: i think u are referring to one big fight situations like max vs max armies. But u have to note that most games do end before max vs max. And vikings are better during the stage of the game where u are trying to gain an advantage over the opponent

Quick Comments

breadfan:

This! It's a massive investment to go BCs

[EveVendetta]

1. BCs much longer building time.

2. > 8 or 9 Vikings and you can snipe a collossus in two volleys. With good positioning this is possible to do so without losing more than 1 or 2 vikings.

3. Terrans will always have a starport with reactor, unless they're going mech, which is currently highly unlikely. This makes the transition to vikings instantaneous once they see collo, and they can switch back to medivac production immediately if required. Starport with tech lab = different story.

4. Since you're talking about late game TvP, toss will definitely have high templars, and once they feedback your BCs, the BCs will take forever to reach and take out the collosi.
You talk about how this might result in less storms against your bio army, but with nothing to take out the collosi, toss doesn't require storms against pure bio. The collo will do the job, and the terran will definitely lose such an engagement with equal army sizes.

So yup, I recommend you stick to vikings!

Edit: damn it iaguz and lzq beat me to it

[xGKingdelete]

they're like carriers. you can't kite with them and they move at 0 speed.

also, if you're going to build up battlecruisers it means you have to tech lab starport. At least 3 starports if you want them in time for any battle. Reactor starport works because you get double medivacs or double vikings. If you want to have medivacs, you're going to use a reactored starport.

edit: freaking everyone beat me to it

Quick Comments

	EveVendetta:	i know how that feels ._.
	wTlzq:	*comforts* im only 2nd to iaguz
	Bloodmyst:	They do however move at the same speed as a HT does.

[Bloodmyst]

Originally Posted by xGKingiaguz

No.

You can kinda go BC's late late late late game on a huge map like entombed or TDA and get 3/3 when you're at 18 bases and your massive bio balls just keep bouncing off his death ball, but they aren't more efficient then vikings.

Vikings have superior range, BC's get fedback by templars so they never get to yamato ever (they don't use energy until after the shot goes off so that's like 1230123123123 seconds to get fb'd). Vikings do really good damage even with crappy upgrades, BC's dont. BCs take forever to bloody build too, and you generally don't have time to switch into mass tech lab and get a core going unless, again, you're at 6+ bases and he just won't die.

Well, now that I'm looking at it... I guess it depends on if you can;

- Avoid feedback on the BC's so you can Yamato the Collossi.

I mean, it's not like T v P revolves around hitting those critical EMP's/Snipes anyway. "If" the HT can be dealt with from the ghosts, wouldn't this give the Terran a much larger advantage after the battle then he normally would with Vikings? Since BC's can shoot down.....

Also, why do we need to kite with them? What would we be kiting from?

The build time is a bit of a bummer..... if only it was less.... I wouldn't mind seeing the BC cost less minerals and more gas either considering the excess gas a Terran always has.

[ToRPandarine]

Originally Posted by Bloodmyst

Also, why do we need to kite with them? What would we be kiting from?

stalkers...unless they have blink, if say, u get a fabulous angle which u can hit the collosi and the stalkers are at the back and moving forward, u can kite! tada!

which reminds me...need to work on kiting with all units @__@

[Bloodmyst]

Originally Posted by ThePandarine

stalkers...unless they have blink, if say, u get a fabulous angle which u can hit the collosi and the stalkers are at the back and moving forward, u can kite! tada!

which reminds me...need to work on kiting with all units @__@

Going into micro discussion is a bit messy. But, if the Protoss wants to do that he then leaves his stalkers vulnerable for your bio to snipe off and which you will not be under the threat of Collossi as he won't want them yamato'ed (tomatoed ahahahhah) by the BC's. This isn't actually that bad considering it forces Protoss to pay more attention to his army.

If the HT can be dealt with, the Protoss will not bring his Collossi forward in fear of getting them yamatoed.

[mGGDaedalus]

Originally Posted by Bloodmyst

- Avoid feedback on the BC's so you can Yamato the Collossi.

How would you avoid getting feedbacked, exactly?

Quick Comments

	Bloodmyst:	Ghosts?
	RicocheT:	One does not simply not get feedbacked when he walks into Tossland

[wTlzq]

Originally Posted by Bloodmyst

Also, why do we need to kite with them? What would we be kiting from?

No one is gonna just atk-move their armies at higher levels, positioning affects the fight alot and BCs move too slowly to let you grab a good advantage

Originally Posted by Bloodmyst

- Avoid feedback on the BC's so you can Yamato the Collossi.

Its like telling a terran to split his stim-less marines perfectly when banelings come rolling in.

[TABottles]

I don't like the idea of having a mobile as hell bio force with a couple of big clunky ships tagging along along behind man. Vikings are much easier to make and then you can land them for extra damages!

[ROOT`iaguz]

BC's shoot down too you know bottles. A lot better then Vikings can. And they're not that slow anymore.

You can't dodge feedbacks unless he has no templar. And he if has no templar you're probably winning.

[TABottles]

Yeah, I knew that - was just mentioning as to say both units have the ability to hit ground. In comparison to vikings they're pretty slow and less maneuverable in a fight - like if your vikings are getting hunt down by stalkers you at least have a chance.

[ToRSpookToR]

but there cool!

Quick Comments

TABottles:

I know :'(

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Bloodmyst

75 seconds build time for Collossus. However with Chronoboost, 37.5 seconds against the 90 second build time of the Battlecruiser. The Collossi is also 100 minerals and 100 Gas cheaper then the BC.

50% faster, not 100% faster. 1.5 seconds complete in 1 second, and thus it takes 50 seconds total.

BCs take a lot longer to build, are far more expensive, require techlabs which conflicts with the things that make your medivacs, have less range, cut into your ground army more, need upgrades to do damage vs +3 armor, etc.

[RicocheT]

Viking vs BC against a Collossus.
Viking > BC generally
BC is slow as hell.
However... BC > Viking in terms of style.
It's not winning that counts, it's winning in style.
Get the BCs.

[Mr_Zain]

I guess the same logic works against banshees which shoot collosi but can also shoot down. Even if you cloak them to deliberately burn mana or EMP them pre-fight to avoid feedback they aren't as efficient as vikings due to the fact that the starport requires a techlab i.e. can't build two at a time and their range and fire rate is relatively worse. A collosus is in many ways like a siege tank in siege mode - if you can split your bio up it won't cop all of the fire. Of course, a terran player should avoid fighting massive collosus balls if possible and focus more on dropping - but that's just my 2 cents.