[Dox]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Users banned from SC2SEA will not be allowed to participate in our official tournaments. The tournament bans would probably be lifted by next seasons SEAL # 3.

Does this mean deth can't compete? Even in the NA qualifiers?

[nirvAnA]

Yeap, I also talked to him about it two days ago.

[TAScarecrow]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Yeap, I also talked to him about it two days ago.

glad you've got someone impartial handling the ban

[Dox]

Bummer.

[nirvAnA]

I'm just going to ignore that bait.

Thanks system will update date/time accordingly

[iM tgun]

Do the qualifiers have to be on wed nights? x_x;

Edit: Did deth's ban get extended? I think excluding him from this tournament isn't right.

[nirvAnA]

The bans were supposed to be for one SEAL. Had deth not made that defamatory / slanderous thread he would be able to play in this and might have been unbaned now. That is why Pinder who had the same ban had his lifted early and he isn't banned from anything else, because although he was very unhappy with the decision he didn't make a thread full of baseleess accusations to get back at me. And i certaintly don't want to encourage behaviour like that.

The accusations there are very defamtory and if i were some else, say SlayerS_Jessica there would be no doubt legal action taken. I've talked to deth and I told him he should be able to play in the next SEAL. Im quite sure 95% of people in my position would life ban him after doing something like that but i'm giving him that courtesy.

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

The bans were suposed to be for one SEAL. Had deth not made that defamatory / slanderous thread he would be able to play in this and might have been unbaned now. That is why Pinder who had the same ban had his lifted early and he isn't banned from anything else, because although he was very unhappy with the decision he didn't make a thread full of baseleess accusations to get back at me. And i certaintly don't want to encourage behaviour like that.

The accusations there are very defamtory and if i were some else, say SlayerS_Jessica there would be no doubt legal action taken. I've talked to deth and I told him he should be able to play in the next SEAL. Im quite sure 95% of people in my position would life ban him after doing something like that but i'm giving him that courtesy.

To be fair the only reason I didn't dispute the tournament ban is because at the time I never planned on taking sc2 seriously anyway. Had i cared more at the time I probably would've taken the same route and supported deth's attempts to get un-banned from the tournament.

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

The bans were supposed to be for one SEAL. Had deth not made that defamatory / slanderous thread he would be able to play in this and might have been unbaned now. That is why Pinder who had the same ban had his lifted early and he isn't banned from anything else, because although he was very unhappy with the decision he didn't make a thread full of baseleess accusations to get back at me. And i certaintly don't want to encourage behaviour like that.

The accusations there are very defamtory and if i were some else, say SlayerS_Jessica there would be no doubt legal action taken. I've talked to deth and I told him he should be able to play in the next SEAL. Im quite sure 95% of people in my position would life ban him after doing something like that but i'm giving him that courtesy.

I understand your reasoning: but I still disagree with banning him from the SEAL. You already banned him (and subsequently hurt the TA team) from the SEACL - At least, you can't really call it a "SEA Star League" when you're prohibiting one of the top terrans from competing at all. At least rebrand it to the sc2sea league. He served his ban for the SEACL (which was 10 weeks or so?) -- there have been people who have done worse things and less punishment.

[TAriiChard]

What do the tournament admins think about this? I'd love to hear their opinions.

[nirvAnA]

Keep in mind that I believe no "special treatment" should be given to players depending on their starcraft 2 skill or who they know. the rules should apply to everyone equally. all other things equal, users with a history of bans / repeat offenders will face stiffer punishment than users with a clean track record.

the precedent for not allowing banned users participation in our tournaments was set when Zanooku was banned and he wanted to join a sc2sea tournament. many TAs were vehemently stating that his ban should be extended to all the tournaments we ran as well, that is a sentiment i agreed with and that is what happened. I believe it was the SEACL#1 or KOF where he wanted to enter his rLs team and he was denied participation much to the joy of the majority of people. I cannot suddenly reverse this precedent, the rules have to remain consistent and not vary depending on a starcraft players skill level.

Also note that if the ban on deth is lifted, Zanooku will be allowed to play in all SC2SEA touraments after next season as well as the rules have to apply uniformly across the board.

as for tguns comment, i believe one of the most famous high profile track runners was caught doping, the olympics didnt rename themselves. when eric cantona one of the best footballers playing in england at that time got banned for 9 months for karate kicking a fan, and it inadvertantly hurt man utd, the EPL did not rename itself from the "english premier league" just becaue he had being excluded and he was a premier player, one of if not the very best players in it at that time.
(this pargraph is not a comparsion of deth's actions, it is a comparison of renaming the competition because of a banned player)

[simon]

surely a leader as wise and sage as yourself would know of such a thing as false equivalencies? to compare zanooku and deth seems foolish to say the least. the less i say about your cantona analogy the better. As for slayers jessica? if you were to take her MO you would become a laughing stock just as she has on certain issues. The rules should be as flexible as your gracious highness sees fit. Every case is unique in its nuance and a man of your intellect should be able to decipher and judge as he sees fit. A hardline approach does not do your reputation justice my liege.

Your humble forum serf, simon

Quick Comments

Dox:

this is beautiful

[TAScarecrow]

@ Nirv: likening your issues with deth to doping charges and physically assaulting a spectator is just retarded -.-

It seems like this is just a personal vendetta to punish deth. Banning him from CO's (funded by donations) and SEA wide (and named) tourneys based on your questionable/emotional modding of a website. How does the sponsor feel about you banning top players based on personal prejudice? My initial comment wasn't bait, it was just a comment on how the situation is and has been handled. You might be blind to it but you're far from impartial in this. It'd be akin to roz deciding on a benji ban.

All I see from the continued ban, even after the frogmite cup, is continued pettiness to get back at deth and TA over some online bm and differences of opinion.

[Dox]

I already made my statement when deth was initially banned from tournaments the first time, but for sake of clarity, I'm gonna go ahead and echo Scarecrow's sentiments above.

I know, I know - setting bold precedents and all that, but it's getting silly now. The last time we spoke about it, you said, "He's staying banned for this Clan League, but he'll be allowed to compete in the next one." But now there's this as well.

You guys don't get along and that's fine. It's not an anomaly. You'll never find a community or workplace anywhere on the planet where everyone likes eachother. Personalities clash every day but people learn to put it aside and move on. This is really getting exhausting.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I still think a forum offense resulting in a tournament ban is tremendously out of line, as there are players who are trying to more or less make a living out of this game. Choosing to disagree with the wrong person on the wrong day shouldn't have such a significant impact on that. Benji can't tolerate me, but you don't see me banning Xeria players from my events just to get back at him.

EDIT2: I also agree that the offenses you compared with are a bit silly. deth didn't cheat anyone and he didn't injure anyone. He disagreed with you, got banned, apologised, got banned again, vented on TL and now we're here.

[NvPinder]

I'd just like to echo the sentiments that it's literally nothing but a personally vendetta against deth by you Bryan that's keeping him from playing in this tournament. Nothing he has done has (in both my opinion, and I think you'll find the VAST majority, including fellow admins who I am in no way associated with but have echo'd this in their actions/tournament rules) warranted the rulings you have given out, continue to change, and even now still cling to.

Maybe you're just clinging to this because you feel backing down at this point would make you appear weak in the eyes of the community of something, but it actually shows a LOT of strength of character to overrule your own decisions when you realize you're in the wrong, and shows a lot of weakness from you to stick to the ridiculous punishment out of spite/fear of appearing weak.

[nirvAnA]

The one thing people have to get clear is deth isn't being punished out of personal prejudice or differences. That is ridiculously petty and people will never be banned because "i dont like them" or have a "personality clash" thats just absurd to hear. People get banned for the actions they have done or the rules they have broken. Im also really tired of all this TA bias accusations. If anything i have been exceptionally patient and tolerant and I am totally fine with many members of TA for e.g TAXavi and TAHackdz help out the site out and i talk to them regularly. TAChadmann, TAdeL and TAEdgE have their own custom avatars and are admins for leagues and i talk to them even more. As long as you hold on to that mindset that I have something against you / TA you're going to intepret every admin decision made as a biased one and never on its own merit.

• Do i want people abusing mods/admins and gettiing away with it?
• Do i want feedback threads and format discussion threads to devolve into petty name calling and insults because people dont like each other or dont put in the effort to discuss things constructively?
• Do i want people to stop volunteering as admins because they see the way we are treated and it discourages them?
• Who is going to want to run tournaments?
• If there are no tournaments whats going to happen to the scene / sc2sea?
• If there wasnt an sc2sea where would our community be today?
• What must be done to stop the community from reaching the level of the CS community?

The site does not just magically gel and work on its own devoid of any system and rules. Look at the state of many sites and compare the community to ours. Thats why certain rules are in place to protect the site from becoming like them and thats why decisons are made not because i dont like XXX or XXX is from that YYY clan and i dont like that clan. These accusastions are very insulting to hear time and time again where people cannot consider the possibility that perhaps, just perhaps thats a chance the offending person did something that warranted that ban. This is something bakainu deals with, with nearly every single infraction he hands out. People accuse him of being bias, selectively targetting people when he has absolutely no affiliation or biasness as well. It just becomes convenient to discredit any decision made due to who is involved.

If I was truly bias deth will just be life banned from all tournaments as simple as that but hey, I had only said SEACL. Even after that slander i am STILL consideringn letting him play in next seasons SEACL which i am starting to think is a mistake, because if i was more strict in my modding the first place aka banning indefinetely after 2-3 bans rather than giving people 7 chances, these problems would never have happened in the first place.

There are serveral others on this site who have said really harsh stuff to me as well but hey, after they apologised sincerely and i accepted it they were welcomed back on the site and have turned over a new leaf and its one of the best things to see when a person has changed for the better. That is why i have been exceptionally lenient, i am always hoping for people to make that change. I told zan to make new forums accounts and not tell me about it and i woudlnt actively check and i told the same to deth. sometimes it happens, sometimes it just doesnt.

How can you say I have held on to personal vedettas or whatever, if i was that type of person I never would have accept those apologies or welcomed them back on the site or give people countless chances?? Neither did i block/ignore deth, something which im very sure a person with a personal vendetta will do. In fact we just talked on msn 2 days ago. I disapprove of his actions yes, but i put that down to him being young and i dont hold it personally against him. He has an awesome gf and the support of all his friends so there must be a great part of him im not seeing, but still that doesnt cancel out what he has done.

That doping /cantona thing was not meant at all to be compared to deths actions. That was just in reponse to tgun's comment on how organizations should change their name because of banned players.

If deth had took the ban without making a slanderous post to get back at me he would have been allowed to play in this one just as pinder is allowed too. And im sure if pinder cared more about SC2 back then and made a post too, it would not have veered away from the crux of the issue. It would be a well presented agrument on the distinction between tournament / forums bans with proper reasoning and examples, not a full on personal attack.

To subject both players who have reacted very differently would be sending the message that, hey its ok just abuse the hell out of the admin with anything u can think of, nothing is going to happen to you! Have a problem with the format of a tournament? Make a personal attack on the admin! Get your friends to back you up! Dont worry hes still going to run the tournamenet for you because youre a "pro-gamer" and its ur god given right!

deth never apologised, it was disguised as an apology, but it never was one. Anyone from a neutral perspective will be able to see that. His apology to fourby recently was a real and sincere one so he was perfectly capable of making something like that if he wanted to. a real apology would have been directed to me personally and privately first, not made on a forum circumventing the ban with the help of a friend "for show".

If his vent on TL was just about the tournament ban and dicussing it then his ban would not have been further extended, but he chose to turn it into a huge attack full of chat transcripts lifted out of context and cut mid sentence to portray me in the most negative light possible. He was fully aware that the ban would not have been lifted, and posting the thread would end up hurting the sea community as a whole when people out side of the community saw the thread. The intent of that post was to malign and get back at me and nothing more.

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

That doping /cantona thing was not meant at all to be compared to deths actions. That was just in reponse to tgun's comment on how organizations should change their name because of banned players.

(didn't quote the whole thing cause whoa, walls of text everywhere.)

Comparing ourselves to the olympics, or any big organisation (like the EPL) is completely wrong. What deth did wasn't anything like doping, or assault. He abused you and called your character in-to question. My point is that the initial ban was for the SEACL (as far as I know) and has now been extended to the SEASL (and, as you said, potentially the next SEACL). He was already banned for longer than two months (maybe even >3?), and you think this isn't punishment enough?

If you seriously think that's not enough punishment, for someone who's trying to play the game at the top level to essentially be exiled from their regions community for three months, then nothing I can say will change your decision. I don't think it's a personal vendetta from you; I don't think you're capable of that. I think that you are, however, blowing things way out of proportion.

[TAScarecrow]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Anyone from a neutral perspective will be able to see that.

If you truly think there isn't a conflict of interest in you deciding on deth's ban length I really don't know what to say (i'll admit I have bias, I wish you would too). Coupled with the fact you think you've been lenient in your bans makes it impossible to reach a compromise as you feel you don't have to budge an inch. Banning a pro player from a tournament over mildly offensive forum posts is overzealous modding imo. You act like you get the final say on who gets to play in the SEA scene. Yes you own a community website, and you put alot of work into the scene but if you put this up before the community (where most of the money and hours come from) instead of having it in this hidden thread I'm sure most will support his return. Comparing deth to zanooku is hardly fair as a justification for ban lengths. Zanooku was a racist, abusive troll that almost everyone in the community loathed. Deth on the other hand just insulted you. It's not a popularity contest, it's just surely an impartial judge can see the difference between deth and ziek and ban accordingly. Again if you'd accepted deth's apology (sincere or otherwise) we wouldn't be in this situation. If you want to be always pulling the mature/lenient/moral high ground card then actually back it up.

Banning deth doesn't save us from being the CS scene. Our community does that on its own. I don't get why you're so determined to punish him? You won't 'reform' him, I'm sure SC2SEA will survive his presence and he'll still hate you just as much after returning.

edit: less aggressive

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by TAScarecrow

If you truly think your perspective is neutral in this you're a lost cause. That you think you've been lenient in your bans just makes it worse. Banning a pro player from a tournament over mildly offensive forum posts is just way over the top and terrible modding. You act like you own the SEA scene when all you do is own a website (your actual jurisdiction). Again if you'd accepted the apology (sincere or otherwise) we wouldn't be in this situation. If you want to be always pulling the mature/lenient/moral high ground then actually do it.

Banning deth doesn't save us from being the CS scene. Our community does that on its own, with or without your divine presence. I don't get why you're so determined to punish him. You won't 'reform' him, I'm sure SC2SEA will survive his presence and he'll still hate you just as much after returning.

I think your post is a bit to.. aggressive? I'm not sure how to phrase it. Without Nirvana, the sea scene honestly wouldn't be what it is today. This site is a large part of the scene, as I'm sure you know that almost all of the tournaments that run will be either echo'd on this site, or ran directly from here. I do agree that he definitely isn't neutral in this situation, however.

Quick Comments

breadfan:

[dippa]

there's another comparison that the "doping" would bring up:

the people who make the decisions about banning players are removed from those that test players for doping.

there isn't that kind of accountability in this instance - especially since the person making the decisions is also a competitor whose chances could be adversely affected in some scenarios - so it's probably better to have not brought it up at all.

[nirvAnA]

I'm gonna once again ignore that scarecrow post - this thread is meant for the fourm/tournament extension ban discussion don't use it as an opportunity to attack my character. Someone told me that TL does not allow banned users to play in their TL opens, and i've just double checked with them.

> Sender: bryan
> TL Username: aLt)nirvana
>
> Hey TL,
>
> Have a simple question.
>
> Are banned TL users allowed to participate in TL tournaments like for e.g the TL Open?
>
> Thanks


They are not.

Regards,
TL Staff

[NvRossi]

can the community or admins please be polled regarding this.

Quick Comments

inFeZa:

like it

[inFeZa]

Showcase SEA to the world.
Don't include all the best players.

[nirvAnA]

Maybe make a community poll on TL.net on their policy and get TL to change their stance on letting banned users play in TL opens too? (Which is sponsored by teamspeak, and im certain its not team speak deciding the ban issue) We can also get a good idea on their rationale why and more perspectives from a much wider audience/community.

Bans like this have always been something not everyone has agreed with, from the dimaga bans for win trading that was extended to TSL#3 (a completely different game) to the idra forum bans when idra did something not even on the TL fourms.

Idra asked his twitter followers to spam a mod I believe, and some cruncher incident - and he got banned on TL for his actions, as obviously TL did not want to encourage this type of behaviour, regardless of the players skill level / fan base so they took this stance.

[NvRossi]

weird justification as decisions at teamliquid arnt decided by one person, and i believe this community is very different to teamliquids.

Was just asking, didnt expect my question to be so undermined I don't really see a problem with polling the community regarding rules and i believe you did mention to Pinder that you were thinking about making a post regarding it...

[nirvAnA]

oh sorry i didnt mean to undermine your question, i really thought it could benefit getting TL's perspective and rationale for their policy, as a lot of the stuff on our site like the house rules and such are hugely influenced by them. also we get to see if they are willing to entertain such threads.

[TAScarecrow]

It must be nice never losing an argument. The TL ban affects an incredibly small number of tournaments and does not exclude a player from the scene. The modding is also impartial and decided as a team in the bigger cases (Dimaga's ban was deserved). Personally banning someone who insulted you with a one-liner from the scene for 4+ months is light years behind TL-quality moderation.

You just do whatever the **** you feel like and move a bunch of threads round. Delete some posts. Make sure your opinion is nice and prominent in the OP and bury criticism from the public eye. Then when you're called out you just shift the argument a bunch of times/claim the moral high ground/claim to ignore it. Sometimes you write it off as the 'same people' [as opposed to aLt members, underagers & sycophants] or 'just friends supporting each other' [just another way of telling someone they're wrong without having to engage in discussion]. Everytime you get shot down you just throw out another flawed argument (this time a fail TL analogy, before that a doping one) until the person you're against resorts to insults. Then you just claim the moral victory and avoid ever losing an argument. It must be wonderful having the judgement and leniency of a saint and tiresome explaining to us mere mortals why you're 'always' right.

Enjoy your powertrip, I can't wait till the rest of SEA grows up and realises they've got a deluded hypocrite at the helm.

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Maybe make a community poll on TL.net on their policy and get TL to change their stance on letting banned users play in TL opens too?

What about polling the TL community if they believe deth's ban was fair...?

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by TAChadMann

What about polling the TL community if they believe deth's ban was fair...?

No one is disputing deth's FORUM ban. pinder himself agreed the forum bans(including his and deths) were warranted. personal attacks violate one of the basic rules that apply universally on nearly every forum. futhermore the person in question has been banned 7 times after being given multiple chances, and by three different moderators - again proving it was not a "sole biased decision" that this person has violated the rules.

the crux of the matter is it being extended to a tournament ban. hence if TL is willing to entertain discussion of their ban policy like that, the TL community could be polled if they think TL forum bans should extend to TL tournaments as well since that is the stance TL has taken.

im sure nazgul gets the final say in TL matters, and when he feels its necessary he personally involves himself in carrying out the bans as well. From what i've seen he is someone with very little tolerance to bad behaviour and is protective of his moderators, regardless of the player skill level - hence the idra bans for an action Idra did NOT EVEN do on TL.

This was his statement:

---

IdrA was just temp banned for 90 days by Liquid`Nazgul.

Reason: A few days ago, one of our moderators (Chill) banned Idra for 2 days. After the ban, Idra encouraged his fans, through twitter, to harass and spam him on TL.

We spoke with Idra and he stated that he does not regret his actions and will not change his behavior on our forums. Thus, we've decided to ban him for 90 days. Regardless of whether he felt the 2-day ban was justified or not, we cannot tolerate a forum user publicly encouraging harassment of our moderators.

We understand that this decision may be unpopular among Greg's fans, but we have warned and banned him before about his conduct toward our staff members. We simply cannot accept this sort of abuse and insults directed toward our volunteer staff members who work very hard to make TL what it is.

---

No i am not comparing myself to nazgul. no i am not comparing sc2sea to TL. they are far bigger, respected and greater then i / we will ever be, but can you honestly look at these two situations and see no similiarities? What actions do you think nazgul would have taken if idra did that to him, instead of chill?

[simon]

a beautiful post scarecrow! unfortunately it will never breach the sc2sea nirvana echo chamber!

[TAScaramanga]

Idra's ban and Deth's ban are two very different circumstances, you can't justify this by quoting one ban -_-

[nirvAnA]

yes it wasn't exactly the same but it wasn't drastically different either. the reasoning for the ban provided by nazgul was

"We simply cannot accept this sort of abuse and insults directed toward our volunteer staff members who work very hard to make TL what it is."

which is basically one of the key reasons why personal attacks aren't tolerated on sc2sea either, especially towards mods/admins, and nazgul's line of reasoning is especially applicable to the situation here.

but again, that validates the FORUM ban which noone is disputing (apart from scarecrow?) not the tournament ban, and the extension to the tournament ban is what should be discussed, which brings us back to my post two posts up, about getting TL's perspective on their policy since its the same as ours.

[TAScaramanga]

You can't draw similarities between those two. Implying that deth's behavior was as bad as idra's and that the admin decisions handed down in both circumstances are even is just plain wrong.

[simon]

You keep trying to shoe horn terrible analogies down our throat which don't add up. It is clear you want so badly for the outcome of the idra ban to apply to deth when both their situations are very different. First of all the ban had no fleeting or lasting effect on idra personally, his career or his income and in my opinion it even helped grow his brand power and reputation. Deth incidently was banned from a drastically smaller community than TL in SC2SEA along with all tournament privileges which are critical to his aspirations as a competitive SC2 player who is unfortunately region locked to SEA due to financial/geography reasons. Leaving him literally shut out from the entire scene. Idra on the other hand publicly shrugged it off and continued to jet set around the world, sign autographs, date Canadian fan girls and continue to collect his massive EG pay check.

One was purely a token ban whilst the other actually had consequences. This means two people committing "similar" offenses receive drastically different real world punishments. Is this your overarching point you wanted to make when comparing the two? i hope not.

[JaFF]

Wow... just wow...

Nirvana built sc2sea from the ground up. He has done so much for the community that some of these posts are just ridiculous. Show some f***ing respect.

To those saying that the consequences of deth's ban is gonna be harsh on his potential career as a competitive player. Yeah, maybe. But then again, if nirvana had not put in the hours and effort that he did to make sc2sea such a success, most of us probably wouldn't even enjoy this opportunity in the first place. If you have an opinion on the matter, you should pm him or post a civil and constructive post. Not get all melodramatic and try to start some anti-nirvana movement.

Deth launches personal attacks at nirvana on a public forum and then gets banned from participating in tournaments that nirvana helms. Is that really all that surprising and preposterous?

Of course nirvana shouldn't be the one deciding on deth's punishment because it's hard for him to stay subjective. Of course these tournament bans are pretty devastating to an aspiring pro-gamer. But personally attacking a prominent figure in the SEA E-sports scene when you have so much at stake in it isn't all that wise either.

I think a big issue here is that up till now deth has not made an apology to nirvana. If he is all that serious about going pro, this should have been a no-brainer. And before people go "Oh so we got to agree with everything thing nirvana does??". Obviously not. Disagreeing with nirvana's decisions is fine, but personal attacks is a whole other story.

Regarding the duration/severity of the punishment of these cases, i feel it has to be judged on a case by case basis, preferably an unanimous decision among the admins. In fact, even if you do reverse the ban now (perhaps after an apology?), i feel that everyone has pretty much gotten your point - that personal attacks on the sc2sea forums is not going to be taken lightly.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[[TA]LoSt]

Originally Posted by JaFF

Wow... just wow...

Nirvana built sc2sea from the ground up. He has done so much for the community that some of these posts are just ridiculous. Show some f***ing respect.

To those saying that the consequences of deth's ban is gonna be harsh on his potential career as a competitive player. Yeah, maybe. But then again, if nirvana had not put in the hours and effort that he did to make sc2sea such a success, most of us probably wouldn't even enjoy this opportunity in the first place. If you have an opinion on the matter, you should pm him or post a civil and constructive post. Not get all melodramatic and try to start some anti-nirvana movement.

Deth launches personal attacks at nirvana on a public forum and then gets banned from participating in tournaments that nirvana helms. Is that really all that surprising and preposterous?

Of course nirvana shouldn't be the one deciding on deth's punishment because it's hard for him to stay subjective. Of course these tournament bans are pretty devastating to an aspiring pro-gamer. But personally attacking a prominent figure in the SEA E-sports scene when you have so much at stake in it isn't all that wise either.

I think a big issue here is that up till now deth has not made an apology to nirvana. If he is all that serious about going pro, this should have been a no-brainer. And before people go "Oh so we got to agree with everything thing nirvana does??". Obviously not. Disagreeing with nirvana's decisions is fine, but personal attacks is a whole other story.

Regarding the duration/severity of the punishment of these cases, i feel it has to be judged on a case by case basis, preferably an unanimous decision among the admins. In fact, even if you do reverse the ban now (perhaps after an apology?), i feel that everyone has pretty much gotten your point - that personal attacks on the sc2sea forums is not going to be taken lightly.

Come on.. Really? I haven't even posted about this topic, choosing to stay out of all the drama, but this post is just ridiculous. Why did you feel the need to post this..?

If you have an opinion on the matter, you should pm him or post a civil and constructive post. Not get all melodramatic and try to start some anti-nirvana movement.

Oh shit.. Why didn't anyone think of that? Oh wait..

Deth launches personal attacks at nirvana on a public forum and then gets banned from participating in tournaments that nirvana helms. Is that really all that surprising and preposterous?

That is the issue. sc2sea is the gateway for EVERY South-East Asian tournament hosted. Is TL the mediator of every tournament advertised on their site, and they choose who does and doesn't participate? No. The majority of the community feels deth has served his time.. This is the ******* internet; let the kid play the game hes sponsored to play?

I think a big issue here is that up till now deth has not made an apology to nirvana.

I feel like saying that this won't help at all, because everyone who has the slightest bit of involvement in any of this would know it's beyond this. This thread contains an apology for personal attacks before the TL thread. Do you really think an apology now, after all that, would change anything?

Your post has some good content. Here, I'll show you how you should've written it.

Originally Posted by JaFF

To those saying that the consequences of deth's ban is gonna be harsh on his potential career as a competitive player. Yeah.

Of course nirvana shouldn't be the one deciding on deth's punishment because it's hard for him to stay subjective. Of course these tournament bans are pretty devastating to an aspiring pro-gamer.

Regarding the duration/severity of the punishment of these cases, i feel it has to be judged on a case by case basis, preferably an unanimous decision among the admins. In fact, even if you do reverse the ban now (perhaps after an apology?), i feel that everyone has pretty much gotten your point - that personal attacks on the sc2sea forums is not going to be taken lightly.

Please, please do what a LOT of people are doing and sit on the sidelines for this one. It's not your fight, feel free to PM nirvana to let him know how much of a fanboy you are. Other than that, just sit back and watch the big boys do what they need to do.

[JaFF]

Originally Posted by [TA]LoSt

Please, please do what a LOT of people are doing and sit on the sidelines for this one. It's not your fight, feel free to PM nirvana to let him know how much of a fanboy you are. Other than that, just sit back and watch the big boys do what they need to do.

LMAO. First light, now you. If you guys want to 'discuss' something without interference from the public/community, don't do it on a public forum. All this 'stay out of it it's not your fight' bullshit seriously makes no sense.

Originally Posted by simon

After posts like that Nirvana you wonder why people grow so incredibly frustrated and start throwing ad hominem attacks at you. its ******* unbelievable your ability to constantly regurgitate the same bullshit statement time and time again even though new rational arguments continue to be brought forth from people. Its like you replaced your daily intake of water with the very same kool aid that jaff has so blatantly been gorging himself on.

Posts like these on TL will get your warned/banned in a heartbeat. No idea how or why the moderators in sc2sea can tolerate them.

Originally Posted by TAChampi

tguns post was neutral
jaffs post was not neutral

Dafuq? Just because i agree with nirvana that means i'm not neutral? Unlike you guys from TA, i'm not from aLt. I barely even know nirvana. I only decided to make that post because i obviously disagree with a lot of the comments you guys are making in this thread.

All these claims about how the community agrees with your points of views show ignorance more than anything else. I am part of the community and i support nirvana's decisions. From the top of my head i can even name at least 10 others who would agree on that. This thread was made to discuss the degree/process of these punishments, NOT the possible motives behind them, so stop derailing it please.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

Probaby the best post in this thread

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by lost

"Please, please do what a LOT of people are doing and sit on the sidelines for this one. "

I think you guys should apply this to yourself, there isn't a need for you to be involved in this lost. JaFF is just voicing his opinion, like everyone else. are u saying only TA should be allowed to voice their opinions and not neutral people? Didn't see you shutting tgun out when he said his piece, i dont agree with tgun's perspective but i know its a neutral one and i respect his opinion.

Also people should stop speaking for "the community". All of you represent TA's sentiment. TA is a segment of the community not THE community. Just as pinder said neg rep should be removed because "everyone" knew it was stupid system when it turns out the majority of the community want it to stay. and the world wide starcraft community AKA TL share the sentiment that banned users should not play in the sites private tournaments.

if deth wasn't a member of TA there wouldn't even be this thread. zan has been banned for over a year now and i dont see anyone championing his unbanning. NO i am not comparing deth and zan as people, i am comparing the fact they both had their fourm bans extended to tournament bans, and people are now demanding i apply different rules to deth because hes a "top player" and it "affects his livelihood". im also not saying anything bad about TA, there are a lot of people in TA i respect and am on absolutely fine terms with so dont get me wrong.

deth is only banned from two tournaments, the SEAL and SEASL. dont see how that is removing him completely from the scene. if he had Idra's ability he could compete with the rest of the world too and join every other competition, look what TargA did with NASL? Is it my fault too that deth lacks the ability so he can only compete in sea touraments? it was purely by idras own merit that the ban did not have that strong of an impact. and is someone saying nazgul's ban was token and meaningless? would love to hear what nazgul thinks about that.

also pple keep talking like deth was totally innocent and suddenly got prosecuted by some crazy power hungry dictator. everything deth did was brought upon to by HIMSELF. he hurt his own chances, his own reputation and his own team by the actions he did. i dont see glade or pig or any other top player getting banned from tournaments, simply because they will never do anything they know will harm their own livelihood.

and afaik deth works part time and thats where he earns his income, correct me if im wrong. he doesnt earn his "livelihood" from starcraft, and never has. sure he wins the occasional prize but esports in SEA is undeveloped and its not enough to go by, unless you always win everything, consistently, like glade. if anything, playing more starcraft means deth has less time to work and less money to make. so all this "livelihood" talk doesn't even make sense in the first place, there are only a handful of players in SEA that make a living purely off sc2.

As for the "apology"

deth never apologised, it was disguised as an apology, but it never was one. Anyone from a neutral perspective will be able to see that. His apology to fourby recently was a real and sincere one so he was perfectly capable of making something like that if he wanted to. a real apology would have been directed to me personally and privately first, not made on a forum circumventing the ban with the help of a friend "for show". It was a insincere last ditch attempt to play in the league, and when that failed he made the slanderous TL post to get back at me. again, not something someone who was sincerely apologetic would ever do.

theres a lot of harping and assigning blame on the decision of the ban when everyone else with a netural perspective could see it was deth's actions that resulted in the ban. dont want to be banned? dont want it to affect your "livelihood?" just behave like the other 9,000 users on the site and dont commit any offence that will result in a ban, especially something you have already been banned 7 times for. Whats so hard to understand about that?

Also theres some serious self entitlement issues going on here, everyone here should read the house rules again, which was drafted 3 months ago based heavily on TL's house rules. And if you dont agree just dont accept them.

[NvRossi]

and the circle is complete

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

indeed :) not to worry theres new circles every tournament

[simon]

After posts like that Nirvana you wonder why people grow so incredibly frustrated and start throwing ad hominem attacks at you. its ******* unbelievable your ability to constantly regurgitate the same bullshit statement time and time again even though new rational arguments continue to be brought forth from people. Its like you replaced your daily intake of water with the very same kool aid that jaff has so blatantly been gorging himself on.

[iM MaFia]

why cant you just ask if the sponsor soulja allows deth to participate or not?

[Champi]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

JaFF is just voicing his opinion, like everyone else. are u saying only TA should be allowed to voice their opinions and not neutral people? Didn't see you shutting tgun out when he said his piece, i dont agree with tgun's perspective but i know its a neutral one and i respect his opinion.

tguns post was neutral
jaffs post was not neutral

[Champi]

Originally Posted by JaFF

Dafuq? Just because i agree with nirvana that means i'm not neutral? Unlike you guys from TA, i'm not from aLt. I barely even know nirvana. I only decided to make that post because i obviously disagree with a lot of the comments you guys are making in this thread.

do u even understand the meaning of the word neutral?

neutral
[noo-truhl, nyoo-truhl]   Example Sentences Origin

neu·tral
   [noo-truhl, nyoo-truhl]

adjective

1.
not taking part or giving assistance in a dispute or war between others: a neutral nation during World War II.
2.
not aligned with or supporting any side or position in a controversy: The arbitrator was absolutely neutral.
3.
of or belonging to a neutral state or party: neutral territory.


doesnt matter if ur not in alt, u took a side, so ur not neutral. u fucked up!

[JaFF]

Originally Posted by TAChampi

do u even understand the meaning of the word neutral?

neutral
[noo-truhl, nyoo-truhl]   Example Sentences Origin

neu·tral
   [noo-truhl, nyoo-truhl]

adjective

1.
not taking part or giving assistance in a dispute or war between others: a neutral nation during World War II.
2.
not aligned with or supporting any side or position in a controversy: The arbitrator was absolutely neutral.
3.
of or belonging to a neutral state or party: neutral territory.


doesnt matter if ur not in alt, u took a side, so ur not neutral. u fucked up!

Well by that definition almost all of our posts, including tgun's, aren't neutral because we ultimately took a side one way or the other.

Clearly by neutral we meant unbiased. From experience a semantics argument usually gets you no where.

[sheepy]

do u even understand the meaning of the word neutral?

1.
not taking part or giving assistance in a dispute or war between others: a neutral nation during World War II.
2.
not aligned with or supporting any side or position in a controversy: The arbitrator was absolutely neutral.
3.
of or belonging to a neutral state or party: neutral territory.


doesnt matter if ur not in alt, u took a side, so ur not neutral. u fucked up!

So you are saying that this is a private conflict between two parties and external voices or parties can not voice their opinion on the matter? If so, why is it on a public forum? If you choose to pursue this matter on a public form, you should expect that people would come in to voice their opinions.

This statement you quoted:

not aligned with or supporting any side or position in a controversy: The arbitrator was absolutely neutral.

This refers to having absolutely no alignment with EITHER party before reading into the controversy itself. A neutral party such as an arbitrator is allowed to take a stance on an issue after looking at the various factors that are causing the controversy. The role of an arbitrator is to come in to the issue with absolutely no allegiance(neutral) to either party and take a STANCE on the matter based on what he sees. Jaff came into this post as a neutral party and that is the conclusion he has reached. You are the one who has misunderstood the term.

i also see many many personal attacks in this post. On most community sites, personal attacks result in bans regardless of the circumstances. Lets not even talk about personal attacks on administrators here. Nirvana has done a ton for the sea community, and sc2sea is part of the reason why the community has developed so much in the first place. To me its just incredible how some people can attack someone who has done so much to build SEA scene simply because of one or two things that they disagree with.

[EveVendetta]

Originally Posted by TAChampi

do u even understand the meaning of the word neutral?

neutral
[noo-truhl, nyoo-truhl]   Example Sentences Origin

neu·tral
   [noo-truhl, nyoo-truhl]

adjective

1.
not taking part or giving assistance in a dispute or war between others: a neutral nation during World War II.
2.
not aligned with or supporting any side or position in a controversy: The arbitrator was absolutely neutral.
3.
of or belonging to a neutral state or party: neutral territory.


doesnt matter if ur not in alt, u took a side, so ur not neutral. u fucked up!

Thing is Champi, even based on your warped understanding of what being 'neutral' means, it's a joke you're bringing in neutrality in your argument. Just look at the majority of the posts against Nirvana in this thread, and tell me whom they were made by. And just because Jaff steps in to offer his opinion, you start going on about neutrality?

Originally Posted by TALost

Please, please do what a LOT of people are doing and sit on the sidelines for this one. It's not your fight, feel free to PM nirvana to let him know how much of a fanboy you are. Other than that, just sit back and watch the big boys do what they need to do.

You're kidding me right, big boys? And stop giving this bullshit about being Nirvana's fanboy, it's not about siding Nirvana for no good reason, look at the sense of simon's and scarecrow in this thread and lets talk about how civil and mature they're being in their arguments.

Look at Pinder, dippa, Dox, Chadmann, Scaramanga, Tguns, and Mafia's posts, and learn.

Quick Comments

EveRekanise:

cant dispute with this sound logic

[NvRossi]

you guys are too late to the party

[EveVendetta]

Originally Posted by TARossi

you guys are too late to the party

Doesn't matter, point has to be made.

[NvRossi]

Originally Posted by EveVendetta

Doesn't matter, point has to be made.

maybe your points would be valid if you weren't late to the party.

Quick Comments

TABjornbrandr:

[EveVendetta]

Originally Posted by TARossi

maybe your points would be valid if you weren't late to the party.

Nah your posts have made my points valid why do you think your name ain't in the list in my post

[simon]

Nirvanas impermiable bubble must be getting pretty crowded now that you have taken up residency JaFF.

Quick Comments

TAkrunch:

u make me laugh

[NvRossi]

i understand you think you have an idea whats going on, but you don't. Thanks for trying though.

Anyway i think its time to close the thread so these pelicans can stop their shenanigans.

Quick Comments

inFeZa:

i ******* love pelicans

[ROOT`iaguz]

I'm half TA, half aLt, I declare myself the King of Neutrality.

Rossi's right though, this thread has pretty much run it's course as far as trying to get deth unbanned goes.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	sheepy: