[ToRVenom]

Hey,

i am having an issue with my FFE .
I am feeling i am missing major timing in which i can hit kepe the zerg down.
Cause at the moment i am FFE and not applying any pressure cause i ma not getting enough units to attack into ling army..

Please let me know on some follow ups for FFE.

[KFCrumpet]

the only thing i can really suggest, being a zerg player and all is that if you scout the zerg going an early third attack it with 3-4 zealots or 2-3zealots and a stalker before it's finished. Cause a cancel on it or kill it. Or if you're sneaky enough and it isn't scouted you can get a cannon or two behind the mineral line at the third, or even the natural. This is especially good if you're planning on a timed gateway push

[Trusty]

Originally Posted by HoHVenom

Hey,

i am having an issue with my FFE .
I am feeling i am missing major timing in which i can hit kepe the zerg down.
Cause at the moment i am FFE and not applying any pressure cause i ma not getting enough units to attack into ling army..

Please let me know on some follow ups for FFE.

4gate +1 zealots into robo/twilight
3 or 4 gate +1 zealot voidray into whatever.
4gate +1 zealots into +2 blink stalkers
2star voidray/phoenix
3star phoenix (extremely volatile all-in)
2gate chrono zealots into anything.
huk 8gate +1/+1 (mineral heavy, no stored sentry energy)
standard 6/7 gate (lotso sentry energy)

Quick Comments

	Bash:
	pRoEpsilon:
	nirvAnA:

[Bash]

I'll only comment with a build i've tried/have some confidence in, Trusty's suggestions are all really good (i just havent used them, but i see them used to good effect, except the multiple stargate ones, i havent seen them)

6Gate with +1, i'm not sure of the exact timing but you can hit pretty early, around the time they'd usually take their 3rd, with it you can
A)kill them (if they engage at the 3rd and you win convincingly)
B) Kill the 3rd. (If they dont engage you at the 3rd, kill the 3rd base and go home, because they'll have a bigger army at the natural. (Poke first i guess, maybe they just dont have anything)
You can do this with Blink and +2 as well, but i've barely practised that so i wont comment.

Also stargate openings are good for putting pressure on.

[ROCCAT_Savior]

I'm a Zerg player, but the openings I see Protoss players (at Top 50 GM on SEA) are gateway all ins, 6/7/8 +1/+2/Blink all ins. 4Gate Stargate opening is very popular in the current metagame. Gerbera, then player who is #1 on SEA goes for a REALLY fast 3rd (8 mins), and then follows that up with blink and a robo for a really strong +3 2/3 Collossus push.

[nGenLight]

Originally Posted by Host-

I'm a Zerg player, but the openings I see Protoss players (at Top 50 GM on SEA) are gateway all ins, 6/7/8 +1/+2/Blink all ins. 4Gate Stargate opening is very popular in the current metagame. Gerbera, then player who is #1 on SEA goes for a REALLY fast 3rd (8 mins), and then follows that up with blink and a robo for a really strong +3 2/3 Collossus push.

Stops revealing his builds!!!

Find out whether you are vsing a 3 base macroing Zerg (no early all-in potential) or a two base teching Zerg(alot of all in potential). From there vary your play. If you like to macro against a macroing Zerg, take your third at 9 minute if you didn't bother harrassing, take it around 12 minute if you went for some kind of aggression/harrass (DT/Stargate/Gateway).

AOE needs to come in around 12-13 minute or you get run over. Always be on the lookout for the Muta switch, blind cannons in PvZ is actually freaking great!

[ProAnnn]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

Stops revealing his builds!!!

Find out whether you are vsing a 3 base macroing Zerg (no early all-in potential) or a two base teching Zerg(alot of all in potential). From there vary your play. If you like to macro against a macroing Zerg, take your third at 9 minute if you didn't bother harrassing, take it around 12 minute if you went for some kind of aggression/harrass (DT/Stargate/Gateway).

AOE needs to come in around 12-13 minute or you get run over. Always be on the lookout for the Muta switch, blind cannons in PvZ is actually freaking great!

By any means light, is that Gerbera guy you?

[Theend]

Originally Posted by iRLProAnnn

By any means light, is that Gerbera guy you?

Yes, light is Gerbera.

[x5_Bard]

7gate +2 blinkstalker with obs. If you need replays, just grab a replay pack of Balloons, he executes it extremely well.

[QEDFridge]

Originally Posted by Trusty

4gate +1 zealots into robo/twilight

this is definitely a solid follow up. It makes your mid game so flexible.

[asdfSchnitzel]

The problem with going robo play, as i found out the hard way, is that some zergs go: "Oh your going for robo, ill just make 40 mutalisks and kill you". (40 mutas is figurative of course...or is it? >.>)

[QEDFridge]

Originally Posted by QEDSchnitzel

The problem with going robo play, as i found out the hard way, is that some zergs go: "Oh your going for robo, ill just make 40 mutalisks and kill you". (40 mutas is figurative of course...or is it? >.>)

But with a robo/twilight follow up, you have the twilight out so all you have to do is throw down a templar archives.

Problem solved.

[Next_rim]

If you see zerg go fast (like 6-7 min) 3rd, get your own fast third (around 9 min), and put 4-5 cannons there. Protip - first get map control, clear xel'nagas, do a swipe with a phoenix to spot OL's, kill lings that are in front of your ramp and at your 3rd. Don't just send a probe out, it will get denied, and will tip zerg off, causing an attack before cannons warp in. Expect a 140+ food push, likely roach-ling or ling infestor at around 11 min. There are many ways to counter that, but you would normally want some high-tech stuff, like HT, immortals, colossi, etc..

I personally go 11 min mothership simultaneously, and a 3-base zerg will attack right around the time it pops. I also have a voidray and 1-3 carriers around the time they come with 1-1 upgrades. I quickly snipe OS (if it's even there), and zerg has to retreat, because you can't kill a cloaked 3rd base, and a hydra/corruptor ball will likely lose to upgraded carriers, mommaship and cannons.

After failed push, zerg usually grabs 4th and 5th for gas, so I counter with 4-5 carriers right after I clear the push. Half of the time I'm able to snipe their 3rd, or do stupid damage, as no amount of hydra (likely mispositioned), queens and spores can handle 5x carriers at this point, especially if zerg's supply is in lings and roaches. It usually forces a round of corruptors or hydra from zerg, so I safely recall with mothership. I keep doing hit-and runs with recalls if corruptor count is low.

When my carrier count is at 5-7, I add 2x more stargates (up to 5), second core and TC (for lvl 2 shiled). Then I grab a 4th and sometimes 5th with shitload of cannons, and scout zerg. If he is heavy in hydra or infestors, I do more carriers, if he is spamming corruptors, I spam voidrays. By the time zerg gets 200/200, I'm likely at 160-180 food of 3-2-2 air, which a-moves any zerg, even on 5 bases.

[iM yang]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

If you see zerg go fast (like 6-7 min) 3rd, get your own fast third (around 9 min), and put 4-5 cannons there. Protip - first get map control, clear xel'nagas, do a swipe with a phoenix to spot OL's, kill lings that are in front of your ramp and at your 3rd. Don't just send a probe out, it will get denied, and will tip zerg off, causing an attack before cannons warp in. Expect a 140+ food push, likely roach-ling or ling infestor at around 11 min. There are many ways to counter that, but you would normally want some high-tech stuff, like HT, immortals, colossi, etc..

I personally go 11 min mothership simultaneously, and a 3-base zerg will attack right around the time it pops. I also have a voidray and 1-3 carriers around the time they come with 1-1 upgrades. I quickly snipe OS (if it's even there), and zerg has to retreat, because you can't kill a cloaked 3rd base, and a hydra/corruptor ball will likely lose to upgraded carriers, mommaship and cannons.

Couple things, 4-5 cannons at the third is too much static defense, if drops come you'll have a hard time fending it off. I suggest 1-2 cannons at the most likely point they will attack, not directly at your third (your side of the split on antiga or at the base of the mid cliff on shakuras for example).
You will need either a bunch of void rays or immortals in order to not die to a 12 minute roach max.
You also need some form of aoe at ~13 minutes as that is when roach/hydra comes at you, and you need it (collosus and ht also do very well against infestors which is also popular). You won't be able to start a mothership at 11 mins without dieing as it's 700 gas for a mothership and that's a lot of gas (cloak doesnt help as they can just protect their overseers).

Transitioning into mothership before/as you take a 4th base is usually a good time.
Other than that, a ~9 minute third is a good strategy and you can definately defend it if they try to kill it.

[Snx.Mufasa]

when abouts should the +1 zealot w/ void ray hit?

[Trusty]

Originally Posted by iVnMufasa

when abouts should the +1 zealot w/ void ray hit?

8:00 with 1 vr, 5 zealots.

8:30 with 2 vr, 8+ zealots.

[Next_rim]

Couple things, 4-5 cannons at the third is too much static defense, if drops come you'll have a hard time fending it off. I suggest 1-2 cannons at the most likely point they will attack, not directly at your third (your side of the split on antiga or at the base of the mid cliff on shakuras for example).
You will need either a bunch of void rays or immortals in order to not die to a 12 minute roach max.
You also need some form of aoe at ~13 minutes as that is when roach/hydra comes at you, and you need it (collosus and ht also do very well against infestors which is also popular). You won't be able to start a mothership at 11 mins without dieing as it's 700 gas for a mothership and that's a lot of gas (cloak doesnt help as they can just protect their overseers).

Transitioning into mothership before/as you take a 4th base is usually a good time.
Other than that, a ~9 minute third is a good strategy and you can definately defend it if they try to kill it.

I can't question your competence in protoss play, as you are obviously higher in league and rank, but I do have a 78% pvz winrate since I started using the build and I'm rolling 92% winrate this season, and my highest win was a rank 11 EU master zerg. So I feel like I know what I'm talking about.

Yes, I can get a mothership at 11 mins, even earlier, including 1-3x carriers (timing-dependant), lvl 1 air attack upgrade, a sentry, a phoenix and a voidray (also all production). In fact, if I see a 9:30 min hydra push, i can squeeze a mothership at 10 mins just so i can defend it. Moreoever, I created my build to specifically deal with 9+ min hydra timings (drops included). Carriers do enormous damage to hydra, 3x carriers with micro can handle 18 hydras. I'm not even talking roaches, it's just a mtater of time before those die (although it can get tricky if zerg splits army and does 2-way attack or something).

With slight adjustment, it can handle anything in between 10 and 13 mins. This is why I put 5 cannons at 3rd and 2-4 at natural. 2x cannons will not save me from 80 lings, and carriers are too slow to react. I have mapcontrol only up to min 13, then I'm blind for 2x mins, and when I push at 15 with 4th secured, I usually see 10x gases on 5x bases and zerg ready to spam shit. My way of dealing with it is to make them waste supply on useless shit, like cirruptors. Yes, corruptors can kill protoss air, but they can't kill my expansions, and i use recall to force cost-efficient engagements. And I already have massive upgrade advantage and air presence when they come, which in 9 out of 10 cases gives me enough advantage to clear any number of corruptors, hydra or infestors with only 160-180 supply of stuff. Also, I snipe hatcheries in seconds with that enormous dps, so I usually keep zerg contained on 6x gases while sporting 8x myself.

No, it's ridiculously hard to protect an overseer against a 9 range 1-0 carrier (and I will likely have 3, which is a 1-shot with 1 click). I will also have 1 phoenix and 1 voidray. And no, I will not die to a massive roach push for two reasons - I will have ~120 energy for 1 pro toilet, full energy sentry for pro forcefields, and a massive air presence with pretty solid ground in form of cannons. Even if I lose nexus and cannons, zerg will lose more in unit costs, and likely lose his 3rd on immediate counter-attack (I will focus fire hatchery and recall not to lose carriers to corruptors).

TLDR - 11 min mothership works wonders for me, and I almost never lose to 10-13 min timings. I usually lose very late game (25+ mins) due to inefficient trades, or very early game to very well-executed pre-10 min timings. My moto is to be greedier than greedy zerg, and take massive macro lead in mid game with air upgrade advantage and pro recalls.

[ProAnnn]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

I can't question your competence in protoss play, as you are obviously higher in league and rank, but I do have a 78% pvz winrate since I started using the build and I'm rolling 92% winrate this season, and my highest win was a rank 11 EU master zerg. So I feel like I know what I'm talking about.

Yes, I can get a mothership at 11 mins, even earlier, including 1-3x carriers (timing-dependant), lvl 1 air attack upgrade, a sentry, a phoenix and a voidray (also all production). In fact, if I see a 9:30 min hydra push, i can squeeze a mothership at 10 mins just so i can defend it. Moreoever, I created my build to specifically deal with 9+ min hydra timings (drops included). Carriers do enormous damage to hydra, 3x carriers with micro can handle 18 hydras. I'm not even talking roaches, it's just a mtater of time before those die (although it can get tricky if zerg splits army and does 2-way attack or something).

With slight adjustment, it can handle anything in between 10 and 13 mins. This is why I put 5 cannons at 3rd and 2-4 at natural. 2x cannons will not save me from 80 lings, and carriers are too slow to react. I have mapcontrol only up to min 13, then I'm blind for 2x mins, and when I push at 15 with 4th secured, I usually see 10x gases on 5x bases and zerg ready to spam shit. My way of dealing with it is to make them waste supply on useless shit, like cirruptors. Yes, corruptors can kill protoss air, but they can't kill my expansions, and i use recall to force cost-efficient engagements. And I already have massive upgrade advantage and air presence when they come, which in 9 out of 10 cases gives me enough advantage to clear any number of corruptors, hydra or infestors with only 160-180 supply of stuff. Also, I snipe hatcheries in seconds with that enormous dps, so I usually keep zerg contained on 6x gases while sporting 8x myself.

No, it's ridiculously hard to protect an overseer against a 9 range 1-0 carrier (and I will likely have 3, which is a 1-shot with 1 click). I will also have 1 phoenix and 1 voidray. And no, I will not die to a massive roach push for two reasons - I will have ~120 energy for 1 pro toilet, full energy sentry for pro forcefields, and a massive air presence with pretty solid ground in form of cannons. Even if I lose nexus and cannons, zerg will lose more in unit costs, and likely lose his 3rd on immediate counter-attack (I will focus fire hatchery and recall not to lose carriers to corruptors).

TLDR - 11 min mothership works wonders for me, and I almost never lose to 10-13 min timings. I usually lose very late game (25+ mins) due to inefficient trades, or very early game to very well-executed pre-10 min timings. My moto is to be greedier than greedy zerg, and take massive macro lead in mid game with air upgrade advantage and pro recalls.

Whatever yang said actually was not targetted towards you. I have done your strat before, it works. But up to a certain level. Once you reach GM level, where their macro/ reaction is decent, they will stop your carrier build with no problem.

[x5_Bard]

I will not die to a massive roach push for two reasons - I will have ~120 energy for 1 pro toilet, full energy sentry for pro forcefields, and a massive air presence with pretty solid ground in form of cannons.

Sounds a little harder than simply getting immortals... I don't understand why you would want to mother ship rush after taking a 9min 3rd, wouldn't it be better to play "standard" and then just outmacro and crush your opponent? Your looking to win games by taking such an early third, not by (pro) forcefields and having a mothership.

[nGenLight]

I've had arguments with this Next Rim guy before. He is a big lover of Protoss capital ships and it is really inspiring to see his continued passion and persistence in making the capital ships work in a competitive setting. He makes some good points in his theory crafting and I am not completely void of the suggestions that capital ships can work in some settings, because I have seen alot of super high level players use capital ships to their uses (Huk, NvPoo, etc). The mothership especially is pivotal in late game PvZ.

However, I am a firm believer that if you had the economy and safety to mass up capital ships, you should have already won the game, focusing on capital ships in PvZ is something that has potential, but definitely not proven.

All I can say to Next Rim is, regardless how great your theorycrafting is, or whatnot, unless you are producing replays of you using the strategies you have provided against competition level that we can take seriously, people like me and Yang are going to take your words with a grain of salt, and I recommend others to try to learn the more basic PvZ meta-game(if you really want to improve) before they move on to something crazy like capital-ship oriented PvZ.

14minute 200/200 3/1 Protoss out.

Quick Comments

Stallion:

agreed

[wTlzq]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

If you see zerg go fast (like 6-7 min) 3rd, get your own fast third (around 9 min)

im not a toss player.
But i know a fast third for a zerg means 4+ mins. And your warp gate finishes at around 7-8 mins FASTEST. how do u get enough minerals to squeeze out a third?

Oh and btw, if zerg sees that you are trying to play macro with him, he can drone up to 75+ easily, and max out on roach ling at 12 mins

PS: your build seems to be revolving around the fact that he would do a three base timing atk to put himself behind, which most zergs dont

[Shana]

Originally Posted by lzq

But i know a fast third for a zerg means 4+ mins. And your warp gate finishes at around 7-8 mins FASTEST. how do u get enough minerals to squeeze out a third?

For me normally fast 3rd zerg is 5+mins and best time to scout for it safely too.

I am a toss player and I am very sure normal warp gate can start warping in units at earliest 6min sharp. A Korean warp gate can start warping in at 5min 45secs.

Oh and btw, if zerg sees that you are trying to play macro with him, he can drone up to 75+ easily, and max out on roach ling at 12 mins

This is where toss/terran have to prevent zerg from doing, always have to pressure a bit at the front door to force the zerg to build attacking units instead of just drones. Else zerg can reach 200 very fast.

[MrHobo]

I suggest a 4 gate stargate build. It's pretty common right now, but Zergs still aren't completely adjusted to it. Go FFE and take 2 gas at normal timings for Stargate. Add on 3 more gates for a total of 4 and have a proxy pylon where his third would be (he should have a third if you're highly ranked, if not he's probably doing a large push. If you are of lower league and he didn't go for a third, place it near his natural). Warp in a good amount of zealots and start harassing while the voidray is on its way. At the very least, you force him to stop making drones and deal with your attack. Best case, he was too greedy and you kill off an expansion. During this you can take a third of your own, add on a lot of gateways, or go into higher tech and go for the game winner. I suggest watching pro VODs for timings.

[Trusty]

Originally Posted by MrHobo

I suggest a 4 gate stargate build. It's pretty common right now, but Zergs still aren't completely adjusted to it. Go FFE and take 2 gas at normal timings for Stargate. Add on 3 more gates for a total of 4 and have a proxy pylon where his third would be (he should have a third if you're highly ranked, if not he's probably doing a large push. If you are of lower league and he didn't go for a third, place it near his natural). Warp in a good amount of zealots and start harassing while the voidray is on its way. At the very least, you force him to stop making drones and deal with your attack. Best case, he was too greedy and you kill off an expansion. During this you can take a third of your own, add on a lot of gateways, or go into higher tech and go for the game winner. I suggest watching pro VODs for timings.

that is 3/4gate +1 zealot voidray

[Next_rim]

All I can say to Next Rim is, regardless how great your theorycrafting is, or whatnot, unless you are producing replays of you using the strategies you have provided against competition level that we can take seriously, people like me and Yang are going to take your words with a grain of salt, and I recommend others to try to learn the more basic PvZ meta-game(if you really want to improve) before they move on to something crazy like capital-ship oriented PvZ.

Fair enough, my best opponents are EU masters. However, I do not take arguments along the lines of "not viable in competitive environment" seriously for the simple reason that my builds are for ladder, and ladder only. But I do advocate them for their easiness of execution, fun and well-defined strengths and weaknesses.

I do very well know that no serious progamer protoss uses anything remotely close.We also all know that playing at very high level is far from build-centered. And if person is asking for a build, chances of that build being used outside ladder are about 0. Moreover, I really doubt OP (or in fact half of the readers here) play anything but ladder and community tourneys.

So if any1 is willing to try my builds, or offer constructive criticism applicable to my level, I'm open for suggestion, or can submit any number of replays on any map with loads of variations. For all the better players out there who know their stuff - gl hf

[dippa]

Originally Posted by HoHVenom

Please let me know on some follow ups for FFE.

alt+f4 works nicely

Quick Comments

syfChadMann:

lol

[wTlzq]

next_rim u need to submit a replay of yourself with that build first, i am really interested to see how your build works in a replay

[ProAnnn]

Originally Posted by lzq

next_rim u need to submit a replay of yourself with that build first, i am really interested to see how your build works in a replay

If, i'm not that forgetful, i think i used that strat on you once before. On taldarim altar which is a shitty map for that strat since the zerg can expand everywhere

[Next_rim]

next_rim u need to submit a replay of yourself with that build first, i am really interested to see how your build works in a replay

No problem. Here are all my PvZ's starting from 14-th of February. 26 games total, 21 wins, 3 losses, 2 disconnects. I believe 2x losses are from early pools (7 or 8), and I don't remember the 3rd. Opponents vary from high diamond to rank 11 master. I believe in all these I went carriers. If I accidentally threw in some games where I cannon some noobs, disregard that, you will probably tell by game length.

Games are different, some are crazy, some are stupid, some are plain wins, some are hard long fights. If you are interested, I can go through my replays and pick the best ones from my perspective, but for now I can only give you a quick rep pack.

Link is to a Russian hosting website, there is a winrar file with replays. Disregard all random banners with tits, vodka and bears.

http://zalil.ru/32800637

[Kluey]

Go for a 4-gate pressure. It's the safest way to play. After your FFE, chrono boost your warp gate research and have +1 attack lag 10-20 seconds behind so that when you get to his base, you'll have +1.

Send a zealot+probe to get a pylon down. If you see him having only spines + zerglings, he's going for mutalisks. Throw down a twilight council and get blink if this is the case. If you see roaches, get a robo and go for colossus tech.

The point of this pressure is not to do damage but rather to scout. Only warp in zealots and spend your gas at home on tech and sentries.