SC2SEA.com - Starcraft 2 SEA eSports Community Site

**Frogmite** · Fri, 25th-Nov-2011, 2:10 PM

Update: SEACL was by far the most popular choice with voters and hence it will be our first major tournament of 2012. This thread will be where you can discuss the format.

Hello admin, moderators and MVPs,

We have been speaking with Erasmus, Stallion and Maynarde about the clan leagues on sc2sea.com. It appears today that there are more stuff done for BSG/PD players than for good players. Furthermore, we faced a lot of issues with smurfing, players not laddering on SEA, players purposely remaining in BSG/PD just to play those clan leagues.

It's not exactly the result expected so we have been thinking about setting up a new clan league system, that aims to start early 2012.

Current league system:

Pro:
+ Dedicated to the level of players (BSG/PD)
+ New teams created for the events (or teams we never heard about)

Con:
- smurfing, farming, loss tanking
- people not laddering on SEA
- player purposely staying in bsg/pd to play competitions
- not encouraging players to get better
- not enough coverage

New clan league system

The main point of the new league system would be to remove the league ranking restriction.
The idea we got, was to merge BSGCL/PDCL/SEACL into one big league, open for all players, but with three divisions.

I put an example below on what could be the divisions for season 1. I am not 100% aware of the levels of the teams/clans so don't be offensed if your team/clan is not in the right division.

TOP DIVISION:
Terror Australis, aLternative, Infinity, newGeneration, SPR, ArchaicMSI, xGKing, SQLT, TTesport, Mineski, Flash

MIDDLE DIVISION:
FXO, Prodigy, EVE, H

, nRv, Crux, 2bh, FaDe, iRL

BOTTOM DIVISION:
BtD, QED, TCP, ToR, Clanless, KA, VB,...

Features

- Restrictions for 2 teams max per clan
- One player can only play for one team
- There will be a cash prize for first team/clan of top league. No cash prize for bottom/middle league as we must not force players to remain in a lower league. However we can think to another prize for finishing first of the league (sc2sea achievement....)
- At the end of a season, top 2 teams face bottom 2 teams to decide who is promoted/demoted.
- 5/7? players per team minimum - tell me what is your thought about that
- BO 5/7? seacl style (every player playing 1 game)
- playoff with top 4 teams of top league / no playoffs ???

Dates
Starting date: 26th January 2012
End of regular season: 29th March 2012
End of playoff :? 12th April 2012?
So roughly 4 month for a season.

What do we need
- Cash prizes for first team of TOP DIVISION. I spoke with Mayo to check if Tt can sponsorize this clan league. Will check with Razer too. If you know interested people to sponsor this project they are welcome.
- 2 admins per divisions, so 6 in total (Maynarde, myself, Erasmus, Stallion, ???, ???)
- a strong organization, i believe it won't be a mess if we manage the three leagues separetly.
- maybe give three different days (tuesday/wednesday/friday?) for the three divisions so there can be a better coverage?

Pro
+ Give a strong identity to SEA community
+ No more smurfing/cheating
+ It will encourage people to get better
+ It will involves pro/semi-pro teams into the community.

Con
- no dedicated competition for BSG/PD players, unless someone else run those league next seasons.
- difficult for bronze/silver players to get a seat into teams and so playing clan league.

These are just ideas, we won't post anything before it gets mature enough. We'll maybe make a poll as well to see what people think about it.

Tell me what do you think of this, all comments are welcome.

**Eddie** · Fri, 25th-Nov-2011, 2:33 PM

Interesting idea.

I like it how all clans would compete in divisions, earn the right to advance. The top few clans in SEA deserve a decent prizepool, eg SEACL type setup.

However i think it would hurt the chances of BSG and even PD players getting games big time though. I'd assume a lot of clans would have at least have several Masters/High Diamonds, maybe a few GM's too, so you'd likely see the same top 5/7 guys of these teams playing the bulk of the season.

Negatives out way the Pro's imo, as providing events for BSGPD players, who represent the majority of players, and keeping them interested in the game and their own events, should be a main goal of sc2sea.

Is smurfing really such a big deal? Can't say there's been any major incidents in the GPD's. Perhaps it is easier to moderate individuals, i don't know...

If this idea was to be introduced and we kept the other lower clan leagues as well, that would be cool.

**Frogmite** · Wed, 30th-Nov-2011, 2:12 PM

I like your comments, we could maybe make the three divisions as follows:

TOP division - no league restrictions
MID division - diamond league restriction
BOTTOM division - gold league restriction

If a team is dominating the Bottom division (BSG) then they will play in the higher division the next season.

So BSG players still have a division where they can compete. If a player get promoted to platinum he'll have to play for mid division (in his team or another team=transfert, mercato....). Today platinum players are dominating the BSGCL and that's not the point of this league.

And yes smurfing is a big deal as we play in KOTH system, so i suppose we remove KOTH system as it is not relevant for low level

**|Erasmus|** · Thu, 1st-Dec-2011, 2:54 PM

You should consider though, Eddie, that unlike a single GPD, these leagues run for a few months, and people are getting promoted/demoted, and just generally improving at different rates.

So the issue of smurfing becomes more an issue of determining when is a player 'too good' for a BSG clan league, etc. And there still people playing in the BSG clan league who have made semi-finals of GPDs and competed in Masters cups. So it's not like we're even avoiding that issue with the current system.

I think if we're just sensible about it, and seed teams based on the ranks of the Top 5 players, and we're using the PL format rather than the WL format so we don't have all-kills from one team having a player 2 leagues higher each week it will work out.

It also means the teams can be a bit more friendly, and gold players can be in the same team as their diamond friends, even if they realise they might not get played every week.

As an additional twist to this format, I might even propose that we have each team seed all it's players in the signup list:

1. Player A
2. Player B, etc.

Then each week you name a lineup of 5 players, who must play in their seeded order. So the two highest seeds of each team playing that week are matched up. And the teams take it in turns to pick one of the starting maps for that week (since normally you put a player out on a map they like in this format).

**nirvAnA** · Thu, 15th-Dec-2011, 8:42 PM

this will probably be the new format for the SEACL that we just got a sponsor for!

**nirvAnA** · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 3:39 PM

Bump!

Frogmite made this post awhile ago in the staff forums. It looks like SEACL will be our first tournament so its now open to public discussion and heres the place to discuss the format.

In response to benji's "pro teams only tier1" post

l agree there should be at least 3 leagues of separation but not with the "pro league teams only" because many of the top clans are just as good as the sponsored pros and if its just the pros its gonna be spread way tooo thin, not enough players per team, no back ups in case of no shows, etc.

xG - 3 players
SQLTt - 4 players
Flash - 2 players
Tt - 1 player
immunity - 1 player
Mski - 2 really good players
MiTH - 1 really good players

At the same time it will be showcasing not really top players (the others from misk/mith) and needlessly exclude alot of players who can compete with them for e.g iceiceice, targa, yoon, pokerface, timber, han, strafe, rev, muse won't be able to play in the league.

Lastly, theres a big skill gap between benji's "tier2" with infi ta alt and bsg which is better filled with P/D clans so these up and coming players have a better chance to develop and compete. So IMO this idea is something to think about for the future when there are enough players/teams and it is more developed. For now I'd like the divisions to look something like this and it will probably be limited to 10 teams per division so its easy to manage.

My thoughts on how SEACL #2 should be

Its very close to frogmite's OP im basically just suggesting and additional FA Cup GSTL style to run along side it.

Tier 1:
xG + some nGen
SQLT
inFi
aLt
Mski
TA
MiTH
SPR

+ Maybe some others like EVE, Gview, lGd, IRL i'm not too sure.

Tier 2: (PDCL league clans)
Imperial-Winter Nights
Brothers til Death
Ascension Gaming
Terror Australis PD
FaDe PD
Team VB
TCP
Crux
ToR PD

Tier 3: (BSG league clans)
FaDe A
Kelvins Army
The Clanless
FaDe B
Time of Rising BSG
Team Carbon Pressure
Terror Australis BSG
Brothers Till Death
VB
QED

Big clans like TA, FaDe and ToR can be represented in several leagues so all their members have a chance to play.
The league format will be something like 5-7 1v1 matches(each a best of 3) vs another clan weekly to encourage clan participation/activity.
There will be a side cup (FA cup style) tournament where everyone can enter which will have the bulk of the prize pool.

So for instance round 1 matches will look something like this where the top teams are seeded and don't play each other till later rounds. This will basically be the SEACL Season 2 GSTL all kill format and every team would have had the chance to participate in it.

xG vs Imperial-Winter Nights
SQLT vs Brothers til Death
Ascension Gaming vs Time of Rising BSG
Terror Australis PD vs FaDe B

deL · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 3:55 PM

nirvAnA's list looks solid. Seeing xG is looking to add some nGen members to it why not consider letting someone like Tt.PiG play for SQLT seeing they work closely with Tt anyway? SQLT does have a slightly smaller roster than those other teams up there too.

Also if we set up a good structured format now we could have things like promotion and relegation where the top performer/s in the lower league can try to be promoted to the top level in a playoff against the last placed teams in the tier above. That way we'd see as a red hot BSG team improves and eventually can take on teams in the PD level ;D

For teams you're not sure about whether they can be in the top level or not, it won't matter because you can place them in the one below and they should be able to get themselves promoted if they are worthy.

Also if we still want something else to cheer about we could 'connect' the teams in each league. Bigger teams like ToR, FaDe and TA would obviously have their own BSG and PD teams but others could 'adopt' lower teams like SQLT/BtD and these alliances could tally their results at the end to see who was most successful across all divisions :3 The teams could benefit by meeting new players or practicing with them or whatever.

Snx.FigJig · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 3:57 PM

Just wondering what about teams that wouldn't fit in the PD tier 2 league? Like iRL, winter nights, and crux mainly consist of masters-gm players but still wouldn't be at the level of infi, alt, and TA's top players. Where would they be?

Benji · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 4:02 PM

I'm supposed to be casting in 10 minutes, but I want to get a quick post out there and I may follow this up with a more indepth one either after Masters Cup or tomorrow at work.

But basically how I see it is you want players to be picked up by pro teams, and you want teams to be represented. I think we can all agree with this, if people don't, please say so and I can address this.

Yes I may be a little bias, which is why this is a public forum but as i see it, SEA clans and SEA Pro Teams cannot have a format which suits the players. The pro teams want a format for less players (as they have smaller rosters) and the clans want larger rosters as they have a lot of players. This cannot work together.

Second point, a SEA clan league without focusing the sponsored teams will be a joke. Yea the players might all still play on a clan, but it would completely miss the purpose of it. These formats WORK but only if there is a league for the top tier teams, which SEA DOES NOT HAVE at the moment. (eg: TCL is successful for mid tier clans because top tier players play in TeSL).

Thirdly with regards to players showing up, sponsored players are contractually bound to represent the team in team events (or should be). If they don't show for a match, that's poor form for their team. (Obviously given notice dates can be moved if something conflicts).

Like I said at the start, its now 3 minutes before I have to cast, so I can't post more until later, but please question anything I have posted or the logic. As for prize breakdown for what I suggest (Teams in top tier, clans mid tier) I think splitting it something like 75% top 25% mid can work. We need incentive for players and teams to pick up sponsors, or to join a preexisting team, and this SHOULD BE one of those reasons.

deL · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 4:08 PM

The trouble Benji is that we should aim for this to be something the pro teams get involved in, but not now - in the long term. This is just a spontaneous event dependent on private donators and has no guaranteed future so if you set the bar too high now at 5 players or whatever or new pro teams form just to play in this and it ceases to be then teams are left with overpopulated rosters. This does a lot more damage than good for the teams and disrupt the scene.

Sure you want people to get picked up by pro teams but only if they deserve it and only if they can provide a useful service to the team - the point isn't just to suck all you can from the sponsors. That is a sure way to make no future for SC2 as an eSport in Aus/SEA. Let it build organically and the first steps are these clan leagues - like the last one that was a huge success for players and fans ("a SEA clan league without focusing the sponsored teams will be a joke" is not the case judging by last time). If you rush in to it eager to include pro teams when it doesn't really fit you may end up doing more harm than good.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

**syfChadMann** · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 4:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

But basically how I see it is you want players to be picked up by pro teams, and you want teams to be represented. I think we can all agree with this, if people don't, please say so and I can address this.

Who wants to sign The Chad?..

Quote:

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

Second point, a SEA clan league without focusing the sponsored teams will be a joke. Yea the players might all still play on a clan, but it would completely miss the purpose of it. These formats WORK but only if there is a league for the top tier teams, which SEA DOES NOT HAVE at the moment. (eg: TCL is successful for mid tier clans because top tier players play in TeSL).

I don't see this as a Joke - depends what the end goal of the SEACL is.. is it to promote the community and have fun, then no. If it is to introduce a new competitive area for top tier players, then perhaps

Quote:

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

Thirdly with regards to players showing up, sponsored players are contractually bound to represent the team in team events (or should be). If they don't show for a match, that's poor form for their team. (Obviously given notice dates can be moved if something conflicts).

As for prize breakdown for what I suggest (Teams in top tier, clans mid tier) I think splitting it something like 75% top 25% mid can work. We need incentive for players and teams to pick up sponsors, or to join a preexisting team, and this SHOULD BE one of those reasons.

Agreed, players from pro teams should show up - thats what they are supposed to do.
And, Also I agree that there should be a top tier clan league division then a separate division between pro-teams. So someone like Mafia, for example, can play in the top tier competition for xGKing, and the top Clan division for TA. of course this comes down to scheduling - but if the Clan league system has larger rosters he wouldn't need to play every week.. but just occasionally to show case his ability and have some fun... IMO not everyone is driven by $ incentives... sure prizes are good but we all play this game because we enjoy it. So if there was a top Clan league with a minor prize the people could compete for a bit of fun - that would be great... Then for the serious pro(semi-pro) gamers there can be a more significant prize? (perhaps make this level an Open tournament with an entry fee to boost the prize pool and keep out low league teams?.. but if they wanna boost the prize and get rofl'd that is up to them.

Great to see how this all develops!

eSports yo!

EveSigns · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 4:15 PM

hey im rlly sorry if this has been talked about but im a little confused so ill just add my 2 cents anyways even if its been decided on. I would prefer some sort of format liek best of x (75-9) not quite in the gstl style but what i belive is the old proleague format where each team selects there 5 players and these players ALL play with the victor of their match not simply moving onto the next player but securing a single kill/point. this way mroe players could b involved, teams with only 1 good player (i.e. korean ring in/ sea PRO) wouldnt be able to single handedly rofl stomp everyone and as mentioned in a previous thread this could create instances where a weaker team by selecting good matchups/stratergies could take wins off some of the top 4. i know at least in my teams case we have maybe one 'Ace' player in strafe but a great deal of good players who with luck could take induvidual games off of the best. im sorry this is confsuing as **** and not well articulated but pls let me know hwta u guys think or tell me to shut up if its alrdy been discussed

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:
	Bash:	i kinda agree
	nirvAnA:	strafe ftw!

**TAEdgE** · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 4:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EveSigns

hey im rlly sorry if this has been talked about but im a little confused so ill just add my 2 cents anyways even if its been decided on. I would prefer some sort of format liek best of x (75-9) not quite in the gstl style but what i belive is the old proleague format where each team selects there 5 players and these players ALL play with the victor of their match not simply moving onto the next player but securing a single kill/point. this way mroe players could b involved, teams with only 1 good player (i.e. korean ring in/ sea PRO) wouldnt be able to single handedly rofl stomp everyone and as mentioned in a previous thread this could create instances where a weaker team by selecting good matchups/stratergies could take wins off some of the top 4. i know at least in my teams case we have maybe one 'Ace' player in strafe but a great deal of good players who with luck could take induvidual games off of the best. im sorry this is confsuing as **** and not well articulated but pls let me know hwta u guys think or tell me to shut up if its alrdy been discussed

Yeh, for me the all-kill format has lost some novelty. I loved having it everywhere at first (i don't mean just SEA, i mean international clan wars and GSTL) but now i miss the old Brood-War style where it was 5 vs 5, you put a player on a map etc. I think it would be a nice change, the only problem is actually having the required amount of players on. The All-kill format allows more time to prepare players and means that a team could only have to send 2 for example. TA on iCCup though participated in clan wars and even at insanely dumb times (2am) we had 4 players to put out and a 2v2 team for every clan war. I think it is doable, just needs careful preparation.

crAzerk · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 5:05 PM

I'm not sure if this has been considered, but what is the plan with regards to players who improve?

In the PDCL/BSGCL we've already seen some examples of this (-cough-venosaur-cough) in which players improve far beyond the league they're representing. In a FOUR MONTHS event such as this, it's going to be even worse.

**nirvAnA** · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 5:26 PM

Benji the infrastructure isnt in place, there aren't enough teams. its something to consider in the future but its too premature to have now, like del said, this league isnt even sustainable and only happened because of the goodwill of JoFritzMD. Its been almost a year since seacl#1 and there was nothing in between, no one bothered to step in. So until we have a stable of sponsors and a series of planned events for a year, this model will not work. If "pro teams" get hyped up and start recruiting tons and don't see any return because basically theres not even gonna be a seacl#3 for sometime, that will be the real joke. the SEA scene is small and its good to be optimistic but at the end of the day especially with sponsors who demand returns, you have to be realistic or they will just get disappointed and driven away.

excluding all the other good players will end up hurting the league, lessen the viewers and its not what sponsors want. sponsors can be represented just as well with a pro-team/clan league, i dont see why you are so against including clans. also PDCL players will have no league and we will be alienating a whole division of players.

as for pig playing for SQLT, - SQLT stands for sequential gaming, its a different team altogether from Tt. It is just that Tt is one of the sponsors of SQL and besides Tt gets more exposure if PiG doesn't get lumped with SQLT. Its like combining xGking and EG because they both have kingston as their sponsors and saying they are the same team.

**iM tgun** · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 5:28 PM

So, just to try and work this out; am I able to somehow play in this if I reach an agreement between my management in itsGoSu and an Australian team?

**nirvAnA** · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 5:34 PM

we definitely want you and moonglade to play in this somehow but since you guys dont have a "real" SEA team its hard to include you without unfairly boosting the strengths of one of the teams, especially if you're joining just to play in the SEACL.

One of the solutions around this would be to let you and glade join as "seasonal mercenaries" in the lowest ranked teams in the pro-league/clan division. That would make things more interesting as well as provide a more level playing field. Suggestions are welcome.

Quick Comments

	PiG:
	ZergGirl:

**iM tgun** · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 5:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

we definitely want you and moonglade to play in this somehow but since you guys dont have a "real" SEA team its hard to include you without unfairly boosting the strengths of one of the teams, especially if you're joining just to play in the SEACL.

One of the solutions around this would be to let you and glade join as "seasonal mercenaries" in the lowest ranked teams in the pro-league/clan division. That would make things more interesting as well as provide a more level playing field. Suggestions are welcome.

So what you're saying is, even if i'm able to reach an agreement with a team today, I wouldn't be allowed to play?

deL · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 5:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgun

So, just to try and work this out; am I able to somehow play in this if I reach an agreement between my management in itsGoSu and an Australian team?

I dunno about the tourney admins but I'd much rather that than some 'clanless team' - it worked well for BSG but wouldn't really fit in here.

Quick Comments

PiG:

If you aren't part of sea team...

**ToR.Arnor** · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 5:37 PM

My only thought to add is that the Pro-league needs to add ArchMSI to its roster, whether that means ArchMSI + TA members for reserves (similar to xG + nGen) or ArchMSI and TA get seperate slots (TA has more than enough non SQL/xG/ArchMSI members to make their own somewhat competitive team) is totally up to the tournament organizers

**syfChadMann** · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 5:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgun

So, just to try and work this out; am I able to somehow play in this if I reach an agreement between my management in itsGoSu and an Australian team?

tgun and mOOnGLaDe to make their own imba clan?...
Team boss.

However with the 5 people playing individual 1v1s (I don't really know/understand the format) a team with tgun or glade is only likely to get 1 win from tgun or glade (being the untouchable aces :P) However there are GM's that take games off these guys so I don't think they would be such an issue if they were to be included...?

**xpaperclip** · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 6:15 PM

I have a couple of thoughts regarding this. To preface, these are the thoughts of someone who is (1) not on a clan and (2) a lurker who doesn't post much, but reads sc2sea.com every day.

+ [On match format] +

+ [On division separation] +

+ [On length] +

+ [On promoting the league] +

OK, so it has turned into a bit of a wall-of-text, so I spoilered everything. Have a bit of a cold at the moment, so a lot of it has probably turned out to be irrelevant mental meandering too. Read at your own risk.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

**ToRSpartaz** · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 6:21 PM

If you notice majority of GM's/Masters are bring recruited by the majority of clans. Besides theres are members from lower tier clans that are of higher ranks, who wouldnt be classed as elgible for the CL system. So a migration of higher class players will be inspired by this. Making the CL system flawed. Because it is taking away talent from lower tier clans. Besides you can define teams as solely "Pro, PD or BSG"

Just saying yo ^^

Xenomorph · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 7:21 PM

I would like to add something on to the format issue. It's in my opinion that determining the format should factor in the prize money available to the tournament. If the prize money for the tournament is quite large, then a medium-longer format would be needed (e.g. a round robin/group stage etc) as the format would allow the most deserving team to take home the money i.e. the team that won has proven themselves by beating the other best teams in SEA.

The lower the prize money however, a more short term format should be used. One reason this would be neccessary is that teams may not be interested in playing for several weeks for an prize that would not satisfy the amount of time and effort put in. (This is of course just a theory, people of course may play for that time period if they wished).

Just my opinion,

Xeno

deL · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 8:15 PM

Re: players improving obviously if there's a BSG clan league, a PDCL and an Open CL then once a player in the BSGCL team is promoted from gold to platinum he would just be included in the PDCL team (either the same clan or the associated clan as I mentioned earlier).

Also, a surprising number of SEA players are on TLPD, and there are one or two moderators of TLPD that pay a lot of attention to SEA events and make sure to include at least weekly tours like ESL in the results

TCPLemminks · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 8:18 PM

I agree with a majority of the posts here and would like to add:

+ [Format] +

+ [In terms of prizes] +

crAzerk · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 8:19 PM

Quote:

Re: players improving obviously if there's a BSG clan league, a PDCL and an Open CL then once a player in the BSGCL team is promoted from gold to platinum he would just be included in the PDCL team (either the same clan or the associated clan as I mentioned earlier).

Not every clan has all 3 BSG/PDCL/Open CL teams. So what happens if a clan, let's say, has only a PDCL team, and their Diamond player gets promoted to Masters League. Is he immediately banned from the PDCL?

I would think there are more clans that don't have both BSG/PD teams than those that have (I may be wrong), so this needs to be carefully considered and stated beforehand, as a 4 month event is certain to have MANY of such instances.

As for format, my favourite is still 9 Bo1s, maybe not with different weightage (the weightage would favour clans with leet players like PiG, Mafia, etc). Could always trim it down to Bo7 or Bo5 based on whether clans can make up the numbers.

**xpaperclip** · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 8:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAdeL

Also, a surprising number of SEA players are on TLPD, and there are one or two moderators of TLPD that pay a lot of attention to SEA events and make sure to include at least weekly tours like ESL in the results

Oh sure, but there are also a ton of events which are pretty much local to sc2sea.com (like COs or Masters Cups which used to be updated but seem to have dropped off) which don't get covered. Having a local SEAPD would also allow lower league players to be included from BSGCL, etc.

Anyway, was just food for thought.

Snx`Azz · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 9:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

we definitely want you and moonglade to play in this somehow but since you guys dont have a "real" SEA team its hard to include you without unfairly boosting the strengths of one of the teams, especially if you're joining just to play in the SEACL.

One of the solutions around this would be to let you and glade join as "seasonal mercenaries" in the lowest ranked teams in the pro-league/clan division. That would make things more interesting as well as provide a more level playing field. Suggestions are welcome.

If you want to include everyone in this, there is a way it can be done, however I do not know how to address the 'minimum set amount/format of player vs player or all-kill style'.

'SEA Pyramid Clan/Team League Season Challenge'

There are three ways to challenge:

1. You can challenge any team from your current line or 2 ranks above a single tier.

2. Before challenging someone from the line above, you have to win against a team in the line you are in or defend your current team position in the previous instance.

3. You can challenge any team who is placed on the right side of you and the players above. When the challenger wins they can take the place of the other team. When placed on the very left of the right, only the teams above can be challenged. This reveals both a horizontal and a vertical shift.

Essentially:
Tier 1 A (1st)
Tier 2 D (4th) C (2nd) B (3rd)
Tier 3 J (10th) I (9th) H (8th) G (7th) F (6th) E (5th)
Tier 4 S (19th) R (17th) Q (16th) 0 (15th) N (14th) M (13th) L (12th) K (11th)

<1st Place>
> . > . > . <Tier Leader> ^
> . > . > . > . > .> . > . <Tier Leader> ^
> . > . > . > . > .> . > . > . > . > . > . > .> . <Tier Leader> ^

All teams move right or up for wins.
All teams move left or down for losses.

This system promotes continuous improvement within clan teams, and creates a competitive environment. It also allows all teams to 'have a go' against some of the stronger ones within their same tier.

Here is an example of how this works:
- If Team O challenges team H, and team O wins, then team H and O will switch.

Now you might be thinking, 'well wouldn't i always just challenge the team on top first?'

The answer is no, because whilst you may challenge 'any team in your tier level' ONLY the TOP 2 Teams PER TIER may challenge a tier above. Additionally, you might find it more strategic to challenge a team only 1 actual rank higher rather than the tier leading team or a tier above.

How mercenaries work with this system:
- Each team is allowed 1 mercenary, however only Tier 3 teams may acquire a mercenary (Tier 4 teams will not be competitive enough for strong mercenaries).
- Mercenaries are allowed to leave current team at any time and pursue only another Tier 3 team who is scheduled to defend.

This structure allows for teams to grow and have more dedicated mercenaries. This is because a team with a strong pickup will most certainly reach tier 2 at some point, and it would be in the mercenaries best interest to remain with a higher tier team. The option to leave is a fair one, as the mercenary would have to start from a lower position more often than not should they choose to leave the current team.

Incentive structures should be as follows for clan/teams(example):
- Most Improved Team(s)?
- Top 4 Playoffs?

Half the prizes should be allocated to ranks 1/2 throughout the entire season after 2/3 weeks, (example):
- Tier 1 team receives a weekly $10-25 for each successful defense of maintaining rank.?
- Tier 2 teams that successfully defeats a Tier 1 team receive a $10-$25 bonus including the rank up.?

Please discuss, as I feel this is the most flexible structure given what I have read.

**iM tgun** · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 9:12 PM

Can I get an admin to message me with any info about if I joined a team would I be able to participate?

x5_Potter · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 9:14 PM

VB_tgun sounds sexy.

Quick Comments

ZC.EvilSWAT:

I like this guy already.

crAzerk · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 9:24 PM

Azz's format sounds intriguing but complicated. I'm pretty confused about your '3 ways to challenge' section, especially the 3rd point.

Regardless, I was never a fan of 'challenge' formats, it's better if matches were scheduled by admins (speaking from past experience).
I like the pyramid tier idea though, but have to think of some way to integrate it into a fixture-based format.

The whole issue of 'mercenaries' is minimized too with a Bo9 format (since you only lose 1 game to the 'overskilled' played) , just have to figure out how to settle their affliation.

Stallion · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 9:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGAzz

If you want to include everyone in this, there is a way it can be done, however I do not know how to address the 'minimum set amount/format of player vs player or all-kill style'.

'SEA Pyramid Clan/Team League Season Challenge'

There are three ways to challenge:

1. You can challenge any team from your current line or 2 ranks above a single tier.

2. Before challenging someone from the line above, you have to win against a team in the line you are in or defend your current team position in the previous instance.

3. You can challenge any team who is placed on the right side of you and the players above. When the challenger wins they can take the place of the other team. When placed on the very left of the right, only the teams above can be challenged. This reveals both a horizontal and a vertical shift.

Essentially:
Tier 1 A (1st)
Tier 2 D (4th) C (2nd) B (3rd)
Tier 3 J (10th) I (9th) H (8th) G (7th) F (6th) E (5th)
Tier 4 S (19th) R (17th) Q (16th) 0 (15th) N (14th) M (13th) L (12th) K (11th)

<1st Place>
> . > . > . <Tier Leader> ^
> . > . > . > . > .> . > . <Tier Leader> ^
> . > . > . > . > .> . > . > . > . > . > . > .> . <Tier Leader> ^

All teams move right or up for wins.
All teams move left or down for losses.

This system promotes continuous improvement within clan teams, and creates a competitive environment. It also allows all teams to 'have a go' against some of the stronger ones within their same tier.

Here is an example of how this works:
- If Team O challenges team H, and team O wins, then team H and O will switch.

Now you might be thinking, 'well wouldn't i always just challenge the team on top first?'

The answer is no, because whilst you may challenge 'any team in your tier level' ONLY the TOP 2 Teams PER TIER may challenge a tier above. Additionally, you might find it more strategic to challenge a team only 1 actual rank higher rather than the tier leading team or a tier above.

How mercenaries work with this system:
- Each team is allowed 1 mercenary, however only Tier 3 teams may acquire a mercenary (Tier 4 teams will not be competitive enough for strong mercenaries).
- Mercenaries are allowed to leave current team at any time and pursue only another Tier 3 team who is scheduled to defend.

This structure allows for teams to grow and have more dedicated mercenaries. This is because a team with a strong pickup will most certainly reach tier 2 at some point, and it would be in the mercenaries best interest to remain with a higher tier team. The option to leave is a fair one, as the mercenary would have to start from a lower position more often than not should they choose to leave the current team.

Incentive structures should be as follows for clan/teams(example):
- Most Improved Team(s)?
- Top 4 Playoffs?

Half the prizes should be allocated to ranks 1/2 throughout the entire season after 2/3 weeks, (example):
- Tier 1 team receives a weekly $10-25 for each successful defense of maintaining rank.?
- Tier 2 teams that successfully defeats a Tier 1 team receive a $10-$25 bonus including the rank up.?

Please discuss, as I feel this is the most flexible structure given what I have read.

this tier system is interesting but y would teams accept a challenge from a lower team in the lower ranks gives them a chance to lose without gaining anything i mean i just thought then a good way around that would be to make it you have to after you challenge you cant challenge again for say 2 weeks unless you accept a challenge from a lower team. over all the system is cool and one that could work as an alternate. the other issue is if a team near the top have a holiday or such and cant accept challenges then becomes staggnant. that last one was a what if really. im thinking this through as im typing. overall im a fan of it though +1 means we dnt have a "big 4" type thing anymore all the clans can play each other constantly and be proud of progress and could do the payouts at the same time as ladder on sc2 so that theres an easy way to tell when the end of season is. its up to how everyone wants to do it though. Great idea though

Snx`Azz · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 9:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crAzerk

Azz's format sounds intriguing but complicated. I'm pretty confused about your '3 ways to challenge' section, especially the 3rd point.

Regardless, I was never a fan of 'challenge' formats, it's better if matches were scheduled by admins (speaking from past experience).
I like the pyramid tier idea though, but have to think of some way to integrate it into a fixture-based format.

The whole issue of 'mercenaries' is minimized too with a Bo9 format (since you only lose 1 game to the 'overskilled' played) , just have to figure out how to settle their affliation.

The pyramid structure essentially incorporates everything people want to include within this thread, including the roles of mercenaries.

Find a format you can match with this layout and you have a winner.

Benji · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 10:09 PM

Ok I've finished casting so I can make abit more of a post ^_^ Just as a forewarning, whilst I may disagree with some of your points, its nothing against anyone personally.

Quote:

The trouble Benji is that we should aim for this to be something the pro teams get involved in, but not now - in the long term. This is just a spontaneous event dependent on private donators and has no guaranteed future so if you set the bar too high now at 5 players or whatever or new pro teams form just to play in this and it ceases to be then teams are left with overpopulated rosters. This does a lot more damage than good for the teams and disrupt the scene.

You have a good point, I agree maybe I am rushing into this a little quickly, but the format that is being suggested excludes the pro teams completely. Excluding the pro teams due to having requirements of 6-7 players a week means they won't play, which gives no room to grow. You need to include the pro teams to allow it to grow, otherwise you're just stuck in an infinite loop.

Quote:

excluding all the other good players will end up hurting the league, lessen the viewers and its not what sponsors want. sponsors can be represented just as well with a pro-team/clan league, i dont see why you are so against including clans. also PDCL players will have no league and we will be alienating a whole division of players.

Viewers want to see players they recognize as well as good casting, Glade and tgun are the 2 known players at the moment, and they attract the most viewers, if you are interested in purely getting views, just have these 2 play vs a bunch of clans each week.

I assure you, in the long run we get more viewers by making people learn our players and teams, if people tune into a stream and they recognize a player or team they like, they will most likely keep watching, and right now we don't have that, we need to be promoting our teams and players. The question is what to promote, our clans or our teams? A format that requires us to pickup players isnt that intersting to me as it's not me building a team, you're telling me 'You have to play with these nGen players'. Why can't I use tgun and Glade for this event to fill out our roster? Jaz is associated with Infi, Mafia with TA and iaguz with aLt, can I use players from them too?

I do admit maybe completely cutting out clans may have been a bad idea, but the more I think about the format, the better ideas I have, consider the following:

Pro League
Clan League
BSGP League

Pro League has teams of 3-5 players, clans like TA, Infi and aLt can pick a more refined list of players from their overall clan, and teams like SQL, xG, arcMSI, Flash, MiTH, Mski can all participate. Allow teams like Flash that are short on members (I think they only have 2?) to pick a player from an associated clan (Like Flash could pick up Roz as Rev is associated with Infi), You can also have a team with Glade, tgun and PiG on it, allowing them to play (They need to be participating, they bring the viewers, any format that excludes Glade is a poor one as far as viewership goes). With smaller teams, the format would have to suit maybe something like EGMC format can work, or even just a GSTL Bo5 format with Bo3's instead of Bo1's to buffer the cast out a little.

You could have a requirement such as 'over half the players need to be GM' to stop tons and tons of teams from signing up, you want this as the elite top level.

Clan League is a larger roster, 7-10 and you can have a larger format, like TCL which allows players that would usually be overshadowed by the pro players in their clan an opportunity to play. I firmly believe that something to allow the up and comers to florish and show their skill without getting smacked down by the top players is something we really need. Put something like 20% of the prizepool here, leave it open to all leagues (even GM) and say that anyone playing in the Pro League cannot play here.

You can have a large enough prizepool to give you the TL event, meaning you're getting more than 20 viewers, and instead of just 1 league getting featured on TL, you have 2 which is an increase in viewership.

BSGP League is the same as usual, doesn't require an explanation, I honestly don't know much about the current BSG league, but it seems to be run quite well, why change it?

FaDeBadger · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crAzerk

Not every clan has all 3 BSG/PDCL/Open CL teams. So what happens if a clan, let's say, has only a PDCL team, and their Diamond player gets promoted to Masters League. Is he immediately banned from the PDCL?

I would think there are more clans that don't have both BSG/PD teams than those that have (I may be wrong), so this needs to be carefully considered and stated beforehand, as a 4 month event is certain to have MANY of such instances.

As for format, my favourite is still 9 Bo1s, maybe not with different weightage (the weightage would favour clans with leet players like PiG, Mafia, etc). Could always trim it down to Bo7 or Bo5 based on whether clans can make up the numbers.

deL answered that question with his idea of associated clans, Where a clan from the top league e.g SQL is associated with a PDCL clan who is in turn associated with a BSGCL team.

crAzerk · Sun, 18th-Dec-2011, 10:34 PM

Quote:

deL answered that question with his idea of associated clans, Where a clan from the top league e.g SQL is associated with a PDCL clan who is in turn associated with a BSGCL team.

Ok so basically the rule that is in place is that any BSGCL participant who gets promoted to Platinum is immediately banned from participating in BSGCL matches and has to participate in his associated clan's PDCL, and so on?
This would also mean there has to be a clear, stated mapping from the start, for all the BSG / PD clans to one level above to accommodate this.
(E.g. Kelvin's Army --> Imperial Winter Nights --> SPR ) (random examples I pulled from nirvana's tier ranking)

What Stallion said above contains some of the reasons why I never liked a challenge format. The way to overcome it is to make it such that you CAN'T refuse a challenge, but then it could still get messy in terms of scheduling. It's alot more straightforward if it was scheduled by admins.

Quote:

The pyramid structure essentially incorporates everything people want to include within this thread, including the roles of mercenaries.

Find a format you can match with this layout and you have a winner.

Yes Azz. And could you explain the 3rd point as I asked? Why do you restrict the left/right teams (i.e. bottom and top in a tier? ) to be only able to challenge up a tier?

Regarding viewership
I know promoting SEA E-sports is the heart and soul of many here. No doubt, I would also like to see SC2SEA get bigger (even if just in my home country).

That said, we need to assign appropriate weightage to our different goals (e.g. Promoting SC2SEA, Letting Community have fun, rewarding talent etc) so that we don't let certain goals overshadow others.
From what I'm seeing, different individuals tend to be more biased towards a particular goal. This doesn't make it any more right or wrong. It has to come down to what the organizers want for this event, which goal to they want to pursue more.

Once we get this settled, the decision will be a lot easier it seems. For instance, do you want to promote sc2sea (e.g. by allowing pro teams) at the expense of a so-called 'level playing field'? Or is having a balanced, fun competition more important than maximising viewership?

MazEi · Mon, 19th-Dec-2011, 1:27 AM

Hey I'm not sure if anyone suggested this before, but what about a sort of anti-KotH style? Just to put it out there. Like have best of 7 or 9 or whatever, but the winner changes, and the loser stays. Obviously the huge con with this is that if that 1 guy has a bad day then he might lose the whole series for the team but just wanna put this out there.

JoFritzMD · Mon, 19th-Dec-2011, 8:23 AM

I only really see one problem with the challenge system. What if you have 3 teams, A, B, C. Now team A challenges team B, and team B challenges team C. Team A and B win. What happens to C. Does C move to the bottom? Does C move to where B was and A doesn't move at all? Does A move to the place where C was?

In regards to the pro-league, clan league, BSGP league:
Pro League: I personally would say the team would have to be able to field at least 4 players then have a Pro-League like setup with first 4 games then ace match if needed. That way you still are able to have a decent amount of games played while still having the smaller teams. If you allow teamswith smaller numbers to, like benji said, pick up players from their associated clans then the teams should be able to field 4 players.

Clan League: needs to have a larger amount of games, bo7 or bo9. I'm not sure how many (good) players all of the top clans can put out so i wouldn't be the best judge of whether bo7 or bo9 would be better. I'd also put this one in the all-kill/koth format, though the pro-league format could still work.

BSGP: Not sure how it's done now but like Benji said it seems to run pretty well in the tournaments already going.

I personally agree with Benji that the pro-teams should be the spotlight because that's what gets the viewers and the more viewers you get the more attention you can get from sponsors. But as nirvana said, it's not sure if it's going to be another year before the next one so putting all the focus on the teams may not be the best idea.

aLtShortizz · Mon, 19th-Dec-2011, 9:13 AM

Hey guys, i thought spreading the news around and creating excitement would be a good idea so i posted this on the Bnet forums as well. Maybe someone else with a high post count on TL could do it too?

Bugalugs McScruffin · Mon, 19th-Dec-2011, 9:25 AM

So, a quick couple of comments...

First up, I'm a little bit confused about why people keep on splitting these into Pro, Clan, BSG divisions. Sure, this would be a good guide when you first start to sort out what teams start where, but it's not the aim of the different divisions. The aim of the different divisions is to ensure that you have clan teams (as opposed to pro teams) that would be working together and trying to improve as a team.

The basic setup as far as I understand it from what Frogmite and Maynarde have said before is a set team (or teams) from a clan, as you would have in any other sport. They are placed in a division in which they compete for that season. At the completion of that season you have the top two teams from the lower division playoff against the bottom two teams from the higher division. The winners end up in the higher division the lower teams drop to the lower division. This means that by the second season you shouldn't have the pro-team, clan league, bsg league distinctions. They might generally be true, but you will have teams that are in a particular division not league restrictions. The reason we want to get away from league restrictions is because it encourages players to smurf in various forms (either loss tanking or not laddering on SEA). If a team dominates in season one they will get a chance in the playoffs to be promoted into the higher division where they can play against better opponents and have the chance of a cash prize.

This is a rough analogy, but in the end I think this should be considered a bit like Code S and Code A for the GSL. Everyone wants to be in Code S, but you have to earn your way there. A team could start in the bottom division at the beginning of next year and then over a couple of seasons work their way up as a team to the top division where they get the chance to try and take down the recognisable names on SEA. The only thing that may put people off of this format would be that individual teams would have to have rosters that stay generally the same between seasons. They may be able to 'pick-up' one or two new players in the next season, but if it was a majority of new player is would have to be considered a new team and seeded accordingly. This is different from a team that has a majority of players who are still the same, but have all be promoted on the SEA ladder. They advance based on performance in the previous season/playoffs.

Hope this wall of text is not too confusing, and directs people away from thinking about this as 3 clan leagues smashed together.

**inFeZa** · Mon, 19th-Dec-2011, 9:28 AM

We'll take PiG

(and chadmann)

iSt · Mon, 19th-Dec-2011, 9:32 AM

cool. gonna be epic.

Zealo · Mon, 19th-Dec-2011, 10:18 AM

the most important thing is that frogmite runs it, as everything he does is awesome

Quick Comments

Frogmite:

i can't explain why i like what you say

SungInSPR · Mon, 19th-Dec-2011, 11:44 AM

korean pros are allowed to play? e.g : yCh or soulman

cRSenSei · Mon, 19th-Dec-2011, 12:02 PM

Run event like WGTour CL, profit.

deL · Mon, 19th-Dec-2011, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SungInSPR

korean pros are allowed to play? e.g : yCh or soulman

I would say yes to soulman, no to kingkong because he is already in the team ST.

ToRDeathsFang · Mon, 19th-Dec-2011, 12:09 PM

what about tiger, because he's in ST as well?

SungInSPR · Mon, 19th-Dec-2011, 2:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAdeL

I would say yes to soulman, no to kingkong because he is already in the team ST.

then TA cant send out their pros? e.g) rossi ,edge

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

thanks for considering me a pro

**ToR.Arnor** · Mon, 19th-Dec-2011, 2:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SungInSPR

then TA cant send out their pros? e.g) rossi ,edge

correct it would be very likely that Arch MSI would enter division 1 and Rossi, Rossi etc would then in ineligible to play for TA in the other divisions (or a Division 1 TA team)

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

yeap thats right

deL · Mon, 19th-Dec-2011, 3:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SungInSPR

then TA cant send out their pros? e.g) rossi ,edge

It's not even remotely the same, but that depends if they will play in arcMSI. It's also about the precedent.

**nirvAnA** · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 6:52 PM

Update: Had a discussion with frogmite and here is some updated information. There will be a limit of 8 teams per division. There will be four divisions, tier 1 teams will be invited. In the event that more than 8 teams apply for the other divisions, applications will be accepted based on clan activity and leadership ability, so the league runs smoothly. Format will probably be 5 sets of 1v1s, best of 3 and promotion/demotion will only be for the Tier1/Tier2 level. i.e No tier 2 team can get demoted, but winner plays in the "pro-league" next season. More details will be released after hearing feedback from other admins and am also still awaiting confirmation if they can run the league but this is what we have in mind at the moment.

Frogmite will make an official news post soon so stay tuned.

Duration: 2 months, every Saturday.

Tier 1

By invite
Prizes: $$
Admins: crAzerk, BakaInu

Tier 2

Masters / GM, chosen by application
Froggies great idea - This league was made specially for the GM/masters clans like EVE, IRL lGd who would crush all the non pro teams but lose to the pro teams.
The best place for up and coming players to develop and make a name for themselves
Prizes: SC2 Kr Accounts / Coaching
Admins: Eddie, XanT

Tier 3

Diamond and below restriction
Prize: TGM subscriptions
Admins: Erasmus,

Tier 4

Gold and below restriction
Prize: TGM subscriptions
Admins: Maynade, Frogmite

FA Cup:

Open to every team in the league
Prize: $$
Semi Finals / Finals: best of 7

Tier 1 example: These are the invited teams and an example of what i expect the tier1 league to look like. You can't represent your clan and your team so players have to choose which they want to represent. These are the names i can think off from the top of my head

xGking - mafia, jazbas, iaguz, light + ngen
TArcMSI - rossi, deth, voices, pinder + TA
SQLT - ninja, hut, sensei, infeza, yaaaang
inFi - targa, iceiceice, rev, muse, roz, jinx
aLt - pig, jimdiddy, nirvana, shortizz, mrfool, yoonyj, bielsko, han, souj, dementia
Mski - enderr, jabito, waningmoon, pobbes
MiTH - redarchon, maya, fah, jump
SPR - soulman, sungin, soonhee, master, rapz

Still uncertain on what to do with glade/tgun but we definitely want them playing in this league. I was thinking of letting them join MiTH or Mski for season 1 to even the field, but there probably is a more refined solution.

Quick Comments

TCPLemminks:

agreed with format

VB_WhiplashJC · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 7:05 PM

So how does this avoid the issue of smurfing? I thought the idea was to have teams from each clan which don't change and are then seeded based on league distribution and promoted/relegate based on results. What you've posted looks the same for tier 3 and 4 as last season.

Also can there be clear requirements for what admins have to do (eg each week's thread more than two days before the games, full results posting and updated tables, keep track of rosters, start the fist game to avoid counter-advantage) .

There needs to be better dealing with walkovers (it shouldn't be advantageous to get a walkover compared to getting all-killed).

deL · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 7:07 PM

Looks good nirvAnA, except that xGKing for some reason gets nGen players in it but other teams can't? Could all of TA just play under arcMSI like xG are doing?

**nirvAnA** · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 7:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAdeL

Looks good nirvAnA, except that xGKing for some reason gets nGen players in it but other teams can't? Could all of TA just play under arcMSI like xG are doing?

Yes they can, thats what i wrote! Because pro-teams atm do not have enough players i feel its necessary to make concessions for some teams so they can compete and at the same time represent their sponsor with a little help from clans they are affiliated with.

Quote:

TArcMSI - rossi, deth, voices, pinder + TA

Obviously names submitted for TArcMSI can't play for the TA team in Tier 2 GM/Masters division as well so you gotta pick players carefully.

Whiplash its hard to completely eliminate smurfing. To help prevent it we are no longer using an "All Kill format" but 5 series of 1v1s. There is now also a more even spread of divisions so "smurfs" will not have to resort to smurfing to play in competitions to have some fun since they have their own league now.

Yes its impossible to eliminate smurfing completely but we believe these measures will help reduce this. For the next season I might be using a result submission system where team leaders have to submit the results / scores. This makes it alot easier for admins to manage, a lot of the time the scores are not updated because its hard for admins to get them from the team leaders.

ProAnnn · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 7:23 PM

When do application starts?

Impatient people like me hehe.

**nirvAnA** · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 7:29 PM

Frogmite will make a news post when everything is finalised. Probably in a weeks time

VB_Rhuubarb · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 7:36 PM

Any rules on what happens to masters players on teams with no other masters players in it? Would it be possible to have maybe a 1 master player limit in teir 3, or is it just an unfortunate situation for those players?

**Frogmite** · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 7:37 PM

Smurfing can't be avoided, but setting a BO5 single 1v1 will reduce the impact of smurfing players as they can only win one game.
For Tier 3 and 4 we will also ask the players id and cc on NA and make a restriction of 1v1 ranking on both servers, (for example for BSGCL, Platinum players on NA will be accepted)

Walkovers will be described in the rules section. What i was thinking is to make walkovers 3-0 and all-kills 5-0. Still subject to change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VB_Rhuubarb

Any rules on what happens to masters players on teams with no other masters players in it? Would it be possible to have maybe a 1 master player limit in teir 3, or is it just an unfortunate situation for those players?

If the team have one master then the rest of players being PD or BSG, then this player will have to play for another clan for the seacl season if he is still interested to play. If the rest of the players are diamond then you can still register for the tier 2 at your own risks. If he purposely lose games to be demoted to play the PD, we'll spot it and he'll be banned from the competition. It sounds a bit harsh and unfair, but it's more fair for the rest of the teams.

deL · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 7:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Yes they can, thats what i wrote!

Sorry I saw it before the edit!

crAzerk · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 7:43 PM

Quote:

Also can there be clear requirements for what admins have to do (eg each week's thread more than two days before the games, full results posting and updated tables, keep track of rosters, start the fist game to avoid counter-advantage

Wanted to ask this too. I would be glad to help but I won't be able to be present on Saturdays to 'run' the matches as I may have work (Yes, I am poor I need to work on Saturdays). I can settle all the other administrative matters though.

What is FA Cup? So can a team join both FA Cup and the Tiers? (If this is obvious and has already been discussed in the preceding page just ignore me)

**nirvAnA** · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 7:50 PM

FA cup is like football. open to every team no matter the division, just that teams are seeded. if your team wins both you basically do "the double" and if you win the "TCL" as well you complete a "treble" lol! its basically SEACL#1 single elimination format and yes your team automatically signs up for both.

VB_WhiplashJC · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 7:59 PM

So what was the advantage of the tiers for div 3/4 over the promotion/relegation? Seems like it's just retaining the weaknesses of the old system while putting two extra divisions on top. I thought the original idea was great and it seems like it's been abandoned without any problems being pointed out?

Apologies if I've missed something (I assume it was in you guys' discussion)

I guess the one thing is that some clans might have masters in div 3 - but it's only one game each.

The way it is above actively prevents VB (and other teams in our position of not quite being able to put out a full masters team) from improving.

Zealo · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 8:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crAzerk

What is FA Cup? So can a team join both FA Cup and the Tiers? (If this is obvious and has already been discussed in the preceding page just ignore me)

i nterpret the FA cup as a seperate (knockout?) competition with no restricitons on the number of teams that can enter and play without league restrictions on their players.

would love to see 2v2 in there (like EG cup) but still awesome regardless. making one of the games 2v2 would reduce the players required by pro teams by 1 (assuming that is a concern of theirs) as would making the 5th game an ace match (even if just for tier one matches, where smurfing is not really a concern)

biggest possible issue i can see is more than 8 clans wanting to play in tier 2 without league restrictions. if that does become an issue could you possibly insert 1 or more tiers between 2 and 3 (based on numbers of signups) then place teams into divisions based on your own judgement?

i assume teams will announce rosters (without knowing other team's roster) to some neutral party just before match starts? (announcing in advance could cause problems with no shows)

could you make a rule that says if someone on a team in the diamond division gets promoted to masters, they become available to join a team in a higher division?

i'm very excited for this (and could only be more excited if 2v2 was included

)

**Frogmite** · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 8:16 PM

Quote:

So what was the advantage of the tiers for div 3/4 over the promotion/relegation? Seems like it's just retaining the weaknesses of the old system while putting two extra divisions on top. I thought the original idea was great and it seems like it's been abandoned without any problems being pointed out?
Apologies if I've missed something (I assume it was in you guys' discussion)
I guess the one thing is that some clans might have masters in div 3 - but it's only one game each.
The way it is above actively prevents VB (and other teams in our position of not quite being able to put out a full masters team) from improving.

Tier 1 and 2 have no league restrictions. So we suppose there will be a high number of teams registering for it. You can align any players, so if you have for example a team with two masters and 5 diamond you can register it into tier 2. Depending on the number of teams in tier 2 we might split it in two groups.

Tier 3 and 4 are for casual gamers, so they are separated from promotions and demotions system.
The original idea will be represented by Tier 1 and 2, where there will be no league restrictions. We still thought that some clans doesn't have enough high ranked players so we want to keep running PDCL and BSGCL. These leagues are not for competitive players, but give them materials to improve to join top tier leagues.

As soon as you have one or two masters in your roster, i suggest to register for Tier 2 divison as your diamonds will improve and get more masters in your team.

The idea i pm'ed to team leader will be implemented to tier 1 and tier 2(that we might split in two). BSGCL and PDCL being here for the more casual teams.

sRFullstop · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 8:20 PM

I think Bo7 is better than Bo5 because Bo5 is too short (potentially only 3 games? At most only 5). Bo7 allows for more players to join, and each match will be longer. We are currently using Bo7 for BSGCL (don't know about PDCL), and I think it is of appropriate length.

Also I like the SEACL format, where each player only plays one game. As posters said above it will allow for more fairness because smurfs only get one point. Also it forces the whole team to be well rounded, so they cannot rely on one ace player anymore.

ProAnnn · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 8:28 PM

A question. Each team send 5 players. Is the format the CURRENT 2011-2012 proleague format where NO ace players is used(5th player must be new, cannot be one of the 1st 4 sent out) OR isit the old format where the 5th player can be reused AKA ACE.

crAzerk · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 8:28 PM

Quote:

I think Bo7 is better than Bo5 because Bo5 is too short (potentially only 3 games? At most only 5). Bo7 allows for more players to join, and each match will be longer.

This has been discussed earlier, the problem with a bigger number of BoX is that more players have to turn up. Even now in PDCL I think some clans also have problems of people not turning up and it's Bo7.

sRFullstop · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 8:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crAzerk

This has been discussed earlier, the problem with a bigger number of BoX is that more players have to turn up. Even now in PDCL I think some clans also have problems of people not turning up and it's Bo7.

I see the problem, we are having it in BSGCL too. However, Bo5 is not as entertaining or exciting as a Bo7, and players don't really get the chance to play that many games. If this is a problem for many teams across many leagues then I suppose Bo5 will be better so clans can have a full roster. Bringing up the point of not enough players showing up, if this is the case maybe we should make the playoffs the same length as the bracket play. For example there might a problem of narrowly being able to get 4 players for Bo7 and then having to forfeit a game for Bo9 in playoffs?

aLtMrFool · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 8:53 PM

I think there's a confusion going on right now where people are not sure whether the BO5 actually means :

1: First to win 3x 1v1 wins the set when only one match is going on at any one time

2: All 5 matches are played out and whichever team has 3 or more wins takes the set!

I do think that the current suggested format seems to be the latter? Can someone comfirm? Anyway I do think the 5 matches are all played out is better because

Firstly, it encourages more participation!

Secondly, we can have a higher variation of scores like 5:0 and 4:1 and 3:2 and if somehow the ultimate format determines that each win/loss has a score/points tied along with it, there'll be a better variation of scores to distinguish between each team!

ProAnnn · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 8:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aLtMrFool

I think there's a confusion going on right now where people are not sure whether the BO5 actually means :

1: First to win 3x 1v1 wins the set when only one match is going on at any one time

2: All 5 matches are played out and whichever team has 3 or more wins takes the set!

I do think that the current suggested format seems to be the latter? Can someone comfirm? Anyway I do think the 5 matches are all played out is better because

Firstly, it encourages more participation!

Secondly, we can have a higher variation of scores like 5:0 and 4:1 and 3:2 and if somehow the ultimate format determines that each win/loss has a score/points tied along with it, there'll be a better variation of scores to distinguish between each team!

There is a slight problem with this format. It is TIME-CONSUMING. If only 1 match is going at any one time, a 5 X Bo3 will take as long as 5 hours if it goes to all 3 sets in every game. Once i had a CW with this format and it took 4.5 hours to finish the entire CW. For people living in NZ, the games normally starts at 12am for them and it also means it ends 4.30am for them which may not be so good.

deL · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 8:58 PM

Add to that MrFool that all 5 games would probably be played out so you can work out for/against scores in the case of a tie.

aLtShortizz · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 9:02 PM

I say we go with the TCL Format, with 1 point games and 3 point games(Ace Matches). That format allows at least 5 players to play and creates alot of excitement where teams can guess and try to mind game each other in the ace matches.

PS: Is it confirmed on Saturday? I have a pretty busy weekends =P

sRFullstop · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 9:04 PM

My understanding is that we have 5 1v1s played rather than having one game played, then winner stays on and plays another game... and so on, so basically we have 5 pairs of players playing against each other. The thing I am not sure of is whether we play the 1v1s all at the same time or whether we play it one at a time. If it is one at a time then it will be of "normal" length but if they are all played at the same time, it should be rather quick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iRLProAnnn

There is a slight problem with this format. It is TIME-CONSUMING. If only 1 match is going at any one time, a 5 X Bo3 will take as long as 5 hours if it goes to all 3 sets in every game. Once i had a CW with this format and it took 4.5 hours to finish the entire CW. For people living in NZ, the games normally starts at 12am for them and it also means it ends 4.30am for them which may not be so good.

Do you mean 5 x Bo1? Each pair of players only play one game.

aLtMrFool · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 9:05 PM

You're misunderstanding me proann, I meant it this way and I should elaborate:

1: BO5 of 1v1 and only 3 wins is needed to take the set

For eg.

Player A > player B
Player C > player D
Player E > player F

Where ACE comes from team A and players BDF comes from team B

In this case, team A has taken the set which means only 3 games have been played.

Or

2: 5 games of 1v1 and all 5 games are played out and scores are all tabulated.

And yes, all 1v1s are BO1, I'm jusst trying to clear out the confusion as everyone seems to be thinnking of the format in different ways!

ProAnnn · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 9:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fullstop

My understanding is that we have 5 1v1s played rather than having one game played, then winner stays on and plays another game... and so on, so basically we have 5 pairs of players playing against each other. The thing I am not sure of is whether we play the 1v1s all at the same time or whether we play it one at a time. If it is one at a time then it will be of "normal" length but if they are all played at the same time, it should be rather quick.

Do you mean 5 x Bo1? Each pair of players only play one game.

But the according to nirvana's post. The format would be 5 X Bo3.

**nirvAnA** · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 9:08 PM

yup its 5xbo3. if its getting streamed just showcase the best 2 matches. They can be played concurrently so whole match can be over in an hour. atm theres no ace format because some teams can have 1-2 very strong players carrying them all the way through.

NvJazBas · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 9:09 PM

Um just a suggestion, will it be possible to make a rule regarding race representation? Like, at least one of each race has to be played in the series or something. Just a suggestion.

aLtMrFool · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 9:21 PM

Right, sorry my bad I didn't read it properly and got the wrong idea that it is 5 x 1v1.

In that case, I suppose all of them should be played concurrently or else it'd take forever for the games to finish...

I'm at pulau tekong right now and posting through my phone.. Not very easy to read everything properly and posting properly while doing duty

.

aLtMrFool · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 9:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xGKingJazBas

Um just a suggestion, will it be possible to make a rule regarding race representation? Like, at least one of each race has to be played in the series or something. Just a suggestion.

Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

SEA's weekly Zergsters(masters) cup

Quick Comments

NvJazBas:

Yeah lol endless zvzs..

sRFullstop · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 9:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

yup its 5xbo3. if its getting streamed just showcase the best 2 matches. They can be played concurrently so whole match can be over in an hour. atm theres no ace format because some teams can have 1-2 very strong players carrying them all the way through.

What does it mean when there are no "ace players"?

aLtMrFool · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 9:46 PM

No ACE players mean that no one can be used twice as an ACE player in any complete set of matches (for eg playing 2x BO3 to carry the team through)

Quick Comments

sRFullstop:

Thanks

Zealo · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 9:47 PM

i don't see any real reason why there can't be different formats in different divisions. i get the impression most of the teams in tier 1 will have small lineups, while teams in tier 2 (like TA) generally have massive lineups...

Quick Comments

	Benji:
	Maynarde:	This will most likely have to happen
	TCPLemminks:

crAzerk · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 10:57 PM

Quote:

I'm at pulau tekong right now and posting through my phone.. Not very easy to read everything properly and posting properly while doing duty .

Calling Tekong Ops Room to bao toh you now!

Quick Comments

ZC.EvilSWAT:

Zerg mata lai lo!

TCPLemminks · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 11:27 PM

Format's looking great so far.

I agree with Shortizz about using the TCL format, where some matches are worth more points than others. If we have league positions be determined by said points, it creates a lot more excitement as each set does actually contribute to the teams overall position (outside of whether they win or lose that match against the other clan).

For those of you who don't watch English Football the FA cup is basically where every team in all the top three football divions (League One, Championship, Premier League) in English football play against each other. If your clan loses the match then you are eliminated. Also I'm pretty sure the match-ups are determined by drawing, not seeding.

**nirvAnA** · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 11:45 PM

Update: Just discussed with froggy and may.

We might use a 4 player TCL format just for TIER 1 teams. All matches are Bo3

Meaning

Match 1: (1 point)
Match 2: (1 point)
Match 3: (1 point)
Match 4: (2 points)

The best players play for their teams in match 4 and this is the only match that is casted. Each team must have 4 different players for each match. so every week u get to see the ace matches, its like a big show match every week. because if each war had their own caster it would be very hectic and its better have a central casting who just casts the best and does a good job.

example:

5pm TAarcMSI vs aLt
6pm infi vs mski
7pm mith vs spr

so these games are casted.

5pm: Rossi vs PiG
6pm Ice vs enderr
7pm redarchon vs soulman

all other games happen at the same time as the respective ace match they are just not casted. this ends up making the teams choose their "ace" carefully and its exclusive and sponsor swill be happy since its the "pro" league after all and that way all the "pro players" will be getting attention and the highest calibre of matches are displayed.

Roz · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Update: Had a discussion with frogmite and here is some updated information. There will be a limit of 8 teams per division. There will be four divisions, tier 1 teams will be invited. In the event that more than 8 teams apply for the other divisions, applications will be accepted based on clan activity and leadership ability, so the league runs smoothly. Format will probably be 5 sets of 1v1s, best of 3 and promotion/demotion will only be for the Tier1/Tier2 level. i.e No tier 2 team can get demoted, but winner plays in the "pro-league" next season. More details will be released after hearing feedback from other admins and am also still awaiting confirmation if they can run the league but this is what we have in mind at the moment.

Frogmite will make an official news post soon so stay tuned.

Duration: 2 months, every Saturday.

Tier 1

By invite
Prizes: $$
Admins: crAzerk, BakaInu

Tier 2

Masters / GM, chosen by application
Froggies great idea - This league was made specially for the GM/masters clans like EVE, IRL lGd who would crush all the non pro teams but lose to the pro teams.
The best place for up and coming players to develop and make a name for themselves
Prizes: SC2 Kr Accounts / Coaching
Admins: Eddie, XanT

Tier 3

Diamond and below restriction
Prize: TGM subscriptions
Admins: Erasmus,

Tier 4

Gold and below restriction
Prize: TGM subscriptions
Admins: Maynade, Frogmite

FA Cup:

Open to every team in the league
Prize: $$
Semi Finals / Finals: best of 7

Tier 1 example: These are the invited teams and an example of what i expect the tier1 league to look like. You can't represent your clan and your team so players have to choose which they want to represent. These are the names i can think off from the top of my head

xGking - mafia, jazbas, iaguz, light + ngen
TArcMSI - rossi, deth, voices, pinder + TA
SQLT - ninja, hut, sensei, infeza, yaaaang
inFi - targa, iceiceice, rev, muse, roz, jinx
aLt - pig, jimdiddy, nirvana, shortizz, mrfool, yoonyj, bielsko, han, souj, dementia
Mski - enderr, jabito, waningmoon, pobbes
MiTH - redarchon, maya, fah, jump
SPR - soulman, sungin, soonhee, master, rapz

Still uncertain on what to do with glade/tgun but we definitely want them playing in this league. I was thinking of letting them join MiTH or Mski for season 1 to even the field, but there probably is a more refined solution.

gimme jazbas and redarchon back!

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

even you leave me off amsi :(

**nirvAnA** · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 11:52 PM

if mith decline their spot you can pick up RA! ^_^
dont think you can get jazbas back unless he leaves xGking

ToRDeathsFang · Tue, 20th-Dec-2011, 11:58 PM

Tier 1 should as mentioned be for the top sponsored teams like xG, arcMSI, Mski etc etc where all the best players clash and that's where most of the great games will be coming from. But some of the focus should also be for the up-and-coming players.

Most of these up-and-coming players aren't in a sponsored team, because they haven't been able to shine yet, but are in a clan. Tier 2 should be where the up-and-coming players of a clan play to try and make themselves shine, while the top players who have sponsored teams and are in a clan as well can compete in Tier 1.

TCPLemminks · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 12:02 AM

Just a quick question.

I'm going to assume that the SC2SEA Clan League Open is also using the BO5/7 1v1 format: This means that teams will require a minimum of 5/7 players and looking at some of the Tier 1 rosters, a few of them currently don't have enough players to support this.

**syfChadMann** · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TCPLemminks

Just a quick question.

I'm going to assume that the SC2SEA Clan League Open is also using the BO5/7 1v1 format: This means that teams will require a minimum of 5/7 players and looking at some of the Tier 1 rosters, a few of them currently don't have enough players to support this.

I'd say the Open league would have the options of pro teams combining with each other or other clans...?

Anyway, This whole thing looks amazing!
Can't wait!.. SEA eSports - its about god damn time!

**nirvAnA** · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 12:08 AM

see my post above lemminks! gonna just need 4 players per week for Tier1, which uses a different format then the other tiers

AxSGRiM · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 12:29 AM

Really pumped for this, I want to finally win some matches for nRv

TCPLemminks · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

see my post above lemminks! gonna just need 4 players per week for Tier1, which uses a different format then the other tiers

I meant for the FA cup style (which I'm calling the SC2SEA Clan Open).
Since it's elimination style instead of points, teams will need a minimum of 7 players. Unless you want to make it use the points systm as well.

**Frogmite** · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 3:13 AM

For the "FA cup" (i think SEA Clan Cup sounds better

) i suppose the format will be the same as Tier 1. So only four players will be needed to play in it. The Tier 1 teams will be seeded.

And yeah, i have the feeling it will be awesome. I hope now that a lot of teams will register. The registration thread is still in the oven, but it already smells good.

crAzerk · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frogmite

SEA Clan Cup

Ewww so it's going to be called 'SEA C C '? loloolol

Zealo · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 1:01 PM

i guess 2v2 has become unpopular enough it's at the point it's not even considered for inclusion in clan leagues any more

deL · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 2:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zealo

i guess 2v2 has become unpopular enough it's at the point it's not even considered for inclusion in clan leagues any more

It's just a stupid format and always was

it was much better in BW and even WC3.

Quick Comments

	cRSenSei:	no
	TAavanar:	counter rep because del is right

**ToR.Arnor** · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 2:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roz

gimme jazbas and redarchon back!

He was ours 1st (and still is ours) :P

Zealo · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 2:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAdeL

It's just a stupid format and always was

it was much better in BW and even WC3.

well i still love it, much more dynamic than 1v1. how was it different in those other games? (aside from resources not being send-able in BW)

(PM if this is taking the thread too far off topic)

Benji · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 2:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

yup its 5xbo3. if its getting streamed just showcase the best 2 matches. They can be played concurrently so whole match can be over in an hour. atm theres no ace format because some teams can have 1-2 very strong players carrying them all the way through.

I disagree with this, if its being streamed you want to show all the games as it makes it more dramatic. If you stream for 4 times as long, you're getting 4x more stream hits which is the goal I assumed, plus it makes it more exciting for the team, as you can all watch and cheer your teammates on.

crAzerk · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 4:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

I disagree with this, if its being streamed you want to show all the games as it makes it more dramatic. If you stream for 4 times as long, you're getting 4x more stream hits which is the goal I assumed, plus it makes it more exciting for the team, as you can all watch and cheer your teammates on.

I've to agree with this, streaming an entire series makes it more entertaining for sure. And given it's only for Tier 1, surely the players are of high enough calibre to draw and keep viewers too! (as compared to current suggested format of just 3 ace matches)

deL · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 4:56 PM

What's stopping you letting someone else stream a 2nd match that is going on if people want to watch a different matchup.

**syfChadMann** · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 4:58 PM

I'm sure there are enough casters and streamers to cover all games....

Benji · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 5:12 PM

@del and Chad

It builds up tension for starters, if one team is 2-0, the third game is very important for the team without a win, and puts some pressure on the player, as well as makes it more exciting. If you do 3 games at once, you'll finish watching the first game, and the commentator will announce 'Oh yea, and X and Y won so team Z has already won' after only seeing a few maps.

Second, split viewership, lets say you have 500 concurrent viewers watching (Random number), if you stream 3 games at once, you're going to have something like 200/200/100 (Random numbers) and each stream is worse off because of it. Also, theres quite a large turnover on viewers, a few people will tune in late or tune out early for a variety of reasons. Lets say you get 1500 stream views in an hour, splitting the event up and doing 3 streams means you'll be casting for about an hour to an hour and a half, giving you about 2k views total, but if you have 1 guy run it, it'll last 3-4 hours and you'll have 4500-6000 views total, which is more impressive to sponsors obviously.

Finally, running the event for 3-4 hours makes it more of an event, if it only lasts an hour its more of an afterthought and people are more prone to missing it.

**xpaperclip** · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 5:18 PM

I say stream every game as a set as well. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense just to show the "ace match", especially since it could finish faster than the other games and then you have the weird situation of the "main event", as it were, ending without a known result for the overall match.

I also don't understand why it all has to happen on a single day. If it were spread out a bit more you would also mitigate to some extent the issue of having to pick a particular match to showcase, and you would have a couple hours of games on a few different days, and it would also give some teams more flexibility in scheduling.

aLtMrFool · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 6:06 PM

We do have enough casters / streamers, but I don't think we can find a time where we can get all the players we need + all the casters / streamers we need to commit to at the same time? I'm not very sure..

Then again, are we able to get people to commit for 3-4 hours for this like benji suggested?

**Frogmite** · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 6:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aLtMrFool

We do have enough casters / streamers, but I don't think we can find a time where we can get all the players we need + all the casters / streamers we need to commit to at the same time? I'm not very sure..

Then again, are we able to get people to commit for 3-4 hours for this like benji suggested?

Yes there's a lot of commited casters that usually cast events that take around 3 to 4 hours: Benji, Zeph, mr zain, flamga, maynarde, eddie, meatex,...
The standard time to start such events are 8PM AEDT on thursdays.

Casting only ace matches:
Pro:
+You get to watch ALL the most important games of every matchups of the week.
Cons:
-You cannot watch all the games of a particular matchup.

Casting only one matchup:
Pro:
+You will have the intensity of watching a game from the begining to the end
Cons:
-You will miss the other matchups or will have to switch channels, or get 2 streamers for one division.

Both methods are valid, i suppose it can be discussed in this thread. Once again, we will do what the community, and the casters, prefer.

Benji · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 6:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frogmite

Yes there's a lot of commited casters that usually cast events that take around 3 to 4 hours: Benji, Zeph, mr zain, flamga, maynarde, eddie, meatex,...
The standard time to start such events are 8PM AEDT on thursdays.

Casting only ace matches:
Pro:
+You get to watch ALL the most important games of every matchups of the week.
Cons:
-You cannot watch all the games of a particular matchup.

Casting only one matchup:
Pro:
+You will have the intensity of watching a game from the begining to the end
Cons:
-You will miss the other matchups or will have to switch channels, or get 2 streamers for one division.

Both methods are valid, i suppose it can be discussed in this thread. Once again, we will do what the community, and the casters, prefer.

Why not only have 1 match a night? So you've got Clan A vs B playing on Monday, Clan C vs D on Wednesday etc, do a group stage over a few weeks and do the same for the finals?

This was what I had working in my head anyway.

**ToR.Arnor** · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 6:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

Why not only have 1 match a night? So you've got Clan A vs B playing on Monday, Clan C vs D on Wednesday etc, do a group stage over a few weeks and do the same for the finals?

This was what I had working in my head anyway.

Thats the way I had it in my head too the TCL format comes to mind there are 3 'play' nights over a week (lets say monday, tuesday, and thursday) each team will play 3 games over say a 4 week period

**Frogmite** · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 6:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

Why not only have 1 match a night? So you've got Clan A vs B playing on Monday, Clan C vs D on Wednesday etc, do a group stage over a few weeks and do the same for the finals?

This was what I had working in my head anyway.

This is another valid solution.
We will have to take care that games don't happen on wednesday night (CO) and sunday (GPD, master cup).

Benji · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 6:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frogmite

This is another valid solution.
We will have to take care that games don't happen on wednesday night (CO) and sunday (GPD, master cup).

Obviously, I was just picking random days.

aLtMrFool · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 7:10 PM

However its gonna be done, it still sounds really exciting! Looking foward to it^_^ though I still have some months of training to go! Plus, scheduling is a big problem for me since I'm in NS xD

**nirvAnA** · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 8:22 PM

benji you first gotta consider the circumstances we face before coming up with suggestions. this is SEA. esports is undeveloped. the market is small. we are not NASL or MLG. no one is getting paid, this is all volunteer work for the community. taking small steps will lead to growth and sustainability. getting ahead of ourselves will lead to ruin and withdrawal of sponsors and overworked volunteer staff, putting us further behind.

people dont wanna watch matches every single day, look what happen to NASL. and even they failed hard and we have 1% of their viwer base. the SEA community want to watch GSL as well, and other exciting events. having it on one day is fine. it may sound good to have it on multiple days on paper but when it actually happens in reality it will be a nightmare logistically for the admins and casters to cast games 3 days a week. This means an admin has to be free 3 days a week as well as 3 sets of casters (for tier 1 ALONE), for 7 weeks straight which is not practical, or sustainable. in a perfect world where everyone is dedicated like frogmite yes it will work but in the world we live in today it wont. you have to consider the constraints we are working with, and more importantly sustainability.

all the tier1 matches will happen on the same day. whether its gonna be cast as a set or just the ace matches is still open for discussion. the reason why i said just cast the ace matches is so

1. people get to see just the "Best of the best" each week and it produces the highest calibre games. sponsored players get the limelight and its as close as a "pro league" format you can get in these circumstances. its kinda like how they just show the best matches at MLG each round while the others are available in replays later instead of showing every single match.

2. every team is covered. so there won't be the nightmare scenario every week of finding three casters to cast the games, inevitably ending up with some matches not being cast at all. look at the CO, its hard to get casters or admins regularly and its just one caster, once per week! its harder work then people think and you never ever wanna overwork the casters or admins who are volunteer staff after all. once they get burnt they don't come back. like torniquet who is already inactive after getting flamed. and look at all the hate erasmus has recently copped after being MIA for just a tiny while. it was his own initiative to single handedly run the PDCL and when he had to go inactive for abit because of 100 hour work weeks and having other commitments people quickly forgot the work he put in. admins are often under appreciated, its a thankless job and we want the "workload" for admins /casters spread out and manageable so they continue to enjoy it instead of it becoming "thankless work".

3. Do i think there will be less viewers with this format? NO. more people will wanna watch a single official main stream showing the best games rather than three separate streams or one stream on 3 separate days. the clan mates who want to cheer on their friends might not tune in but that is a very small % of the overall viewers we will be getting who came to see the best. you want people on TL to be seeing glade, tgun, pig, ender constantly and making their names familiar and getting SEA out there. why would sponsors be interested in unknowns? they want familiar faces and this will help with that.

(this is for tier1 only. for tier 2,3,4 there will be different arrangements)

for the SEA cup it of course will not be this way and be in the more traditional show all games between the clan.

NvJazBas · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 8:57 PM

Can we not name this tournament ~~ Cup?? I always didn't like it being called ~~ "cup"..lol just a suggestion again!

AxSGRiM · Wed, 21st-Dec-2011, 9:06 PM

I agree with JazBas, just sound weird.

TCPLemminks · Thu, 22nd-Dec-2011, 1:05 AM

In terms of stream views, I'd rather not have to make a choice between whether I want to watch this game or that. However, considering the logisitical nightmare that Nirv mentioned of having the games run over three days, we should avoid this.

That being said, if in one day we have all of teir 1's matches being played, what's stopping us from having the three matches being casted by three different casters. Aside from the fact that we would have to get 3 casters to commit 3-4 hours of their time in that day and not get paid for it.

As a side note; Other leagues can have one person stream their clan's matches if their clan members want to cheer them on.

TASlowHands · Thu, 22nd-Dec-2011, 10:04 AM

As a sideline on the streaming issue, Having an ''official'' stream showing the best games sounds like a good idea. Maybe the fact that clans will want to watch each other and cheer each other on could be addressed by someone in the clan streaming their clans games, so long as the games arent simultaneous im sure someone in the clans could stream and cast them for the rest of the clans enjoyment. Big events often have mulitple streams/streamers with different content.

Volition · Thu, 22nd-Dec-2011, 10:13 AM

I am really excited by what i am reading. Thanks for everyone who is willing to volunteer to put in all the effort to get this going. It can at times be a thankless job - to all those offering suggestions, please remember that what seems like a small improvement to the tournament for you may be a heap of work for the (unpaid) people who will run the tournament. If they say it will be done in a certain way, let it be done in a certain way - it isnt like each team is paying to get into the league.

As for when when the tournament should be run, i can see pros and cons of it being on a set date (as people will miss out), but also the logistical nightmare it will make for admins and teams and casters if it isn't a set date. for the lower leagues that wont be casted, maybe designate a time and day in the thread, but give the teams the option to agree to play it at another time (only if agreed, if not agreed must be played at designated time). rules, but with flexibility to make it go smoother.

Thanks again to all the hard workers who are putting in the effort to get it going. The fact that so many issues are being resolved (like having 5 1v1s to limit the effect of smurfing, and 4 divisions to try to make it more competitive).

Quick Comments

Maynarde:

AxSGRiM · Thu, 22nd-Dec-2011, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neatnoicepls

As a sideline on the streaming issue, Having an ''official'' stream showing the best games sounds like a good idea. Maybe the fact that clans will want to watch each other and cheer each other on could be addressed by someone in the clan streaming their clans games, so long as the games arent simultaneous im sure someone in the clans could stream and cast them for the rest of the clans enjoyment. Big events often have mulitple streams/streamers with different content.

I agree with this a lot!

I also think there should be a weekly recap where all the casters talk about the games played and the interesting things they saw during the week along with how they feel the times will do in the future and next weeks. That would be really cool for me ;D

crAzerk · Thu, 22nd-Dec-2011, 1:20 PM

In terms of streamers, just one official stream is needed.

For the other matches, as per usual, individual clans will have their own streamers who want to cast/stream the games even if nothing is said about it. At least that has been what I've been observing all along.

**nirvAnA** · Thu, 22nd-Dec-2011, 5:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neatnoicepls

As a sideline on the streaming issue, Having an ''official'' stream showing the best games sounds like a good idea. Maybe the fact that clans will want to watch each other and cheer each other on could be addressed by someone in the clan streaming their clans games, so long as the games arent simultaneous im sure someone in the clans could stream and cast them for the rest of the clans enjoyment. Big events often have mulitple streams/streamers with different content.

Yeap definitely. This is what we intended, having one official stream and other streamers from their own clans will be welcome to stream their own games.

DeNile · Thu, 22nd-Dec-2011, 6:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nRvGRiM

I agree with this a lot!

I also think there should be a weekly recap where all the casters talk about the games played and the interesting things they saw during the week along with how they feel the times will do in the future and next weeks. That would be really cool for me ;D

Agreed and for each division knowing that alot of the tier 4 and 3 maybe even 2 games may not be casted maybe withing each division the addmins could write a short wrap up over the match ups they saw? Will be hard to cover every match up but a little write up would be nuice even if its only one or two of every set of matches.

This could even become the new weekly show

we have a couple of set casters who let admins call in about results for there league and a little discrption of what happened in the match they saw and any info they can gather.

Sedz · Fri, 23rd-Dec-2011, 1:50 AM

EDIT: Read crazerk's post about streamers.

**syfChadMann** · Sat, 24th-Dec-2011, 9:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

@del and Chad

It builds up tension for starters, if one team is 2-0, the third game is very important for the team without a win, and puts some pressure on the player, as well as makes it more exciting. If you do 3 games at once, you'll finish watching the first game, and the commentator will announce 'Oh yea, and X and Y won so team Z has already won' after only seeing a few maps.

Second, split viewership, lets say you have 500 concurrent viewers watching (Random number), if you stream 3 games at once, you're going to have something like 200/200/100 (Random numbers) and each stream is worse off because of it. Also, theres quite a large turnover on viewers, a few people will tune in late or tune out early for a variety of reasons. Lets say you get 1500 stream views in an hour, splitting the event up and doing 3 streams means you'll be casting for about an hour to an hour and a half, giving you about 2k views total, but if you have 1 guy run it, it'll last 3-4 hours and you'll have 4500-6000 views total, which is more impressive to sponsors obviously.

Finally, running the event for 3-4 hours makes it more of an event, if it only lasts an hour its more of an afterthought and people are more prone to missing it.

While I totally agree with your first point.
your second point isn't quite on the money, while I agree, multi streams = split viewership.. but in a Team league, most of the viewers are there to watch a particular team that they support. so if there is only 1 stream that isn't playing the game I want to watch, I simply won't tune in at all. However if the team playing is one that I like or support, then I'm more personally invested in the match, more likely to watch and more likely to keep tuned in until the match is finished. Then if you select only 1 streamer, Why does that one individual get a monopoly on showcasing this event? - if there are 5 simultaneous matches on, then there should be 5 streams.

Also, hypothetically, Say your the only one allowed to stream Benji, if there are 5 simultaneous matches on - are you always going to show xGKing? or would you be willing to allow a poll to be taken each week to select the match show?... (this is not a cop out, I'm not saying your biased (well, of course you are to some degree, xGKing is your team) but how does the match to be shown get selected? Of course the temptation to only show xGKing is there for you, how do you overcome that transparently and fairly for the other teams?

Peleus · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 12:50 PM

IMO have two days streaming, one focused on a match between two teams, and the second focused on highlights of the previous week.

I.e. Have one night a stream of TA vs SQLT, and watch it all the way through giving the teams a good run through and exposure and 'drama' of a series where you can hope that team X or Y wins.

Later in the week after all the matches have been completed and replays submitted pick out some of the top games in a highlight cast, showcasing the best of what other teams had to offer.

In this format there are going to be a lot of games, so finding the balance between suspense of watching a whole match will be one side of it, while trying to focus on the best games / players is the other consideration. I think having the two casts on different nights finds a decent balance between it.

P.s. Rotate around which teams are focused on each week for the 'series' cast, so every team gets a chance in the limelight.

Can we have some clarification on who is / isn't able to play for clans? teamed players? etc etc, just haven't seen any official guidelines so far. Sorry I think this topic started a bit of a flame war earlier in other threads.

crAzerk · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 12:54 PM

@Peleus
While the streaming idea you have sounds ideal, logistically it'll be a nightmare. You're going to need one dedicated streamer/caster to collect all the replays, sieve through them and pick out the 'top games', and produce a 'show' for presentation.

All these takes ALOT of time (as I'm sure Benji will tell you, with his SEA Weeklies), and we'll need someone to step up to this task otherwise it's not really feasible.

As for the clan/teamed players, it seems to have been resolved with xgKing combining with SQLT and fielding a team in the signup thread. Not sure/can't remember what the official stand is /was.

deL · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 3:04 PM

Yah not really happy with how the format turned out - big of a mess with the made up teams and allied teams, would have preferred something more clan oriented and then have a separate but related event for the sponsored teams where the spotlight is solely on them and the format more suited to their roster sizes :/ Oh well should be fun regardless. Also, should call it team league not clan league! SEATL :P

Quick Comments

	NvRossi:	Dont worry the format only disadvantages TA
	mGMUSE:	precisely.. clans and teams should be separated

deL · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 3:35 PM

I'm not happy with how the team league turned out, mostly because it doesn't "feel" like any representation of the teams of SEA. There are so many merged teams and made up teams and I think most of the appeal of a team league is having distinct teams playing each other rather than trying to force a close contest. It just feels messy and it's hard for me to get excited for despite all of SEA's top players being involved as well as some of the lesser known teams. Add to that the format had to be changed so much to accommodate the teams and the clans and all these hybrid teams rather than having ideal, distinct formats for both the low-player count teams and the large-player count clans.

I would prefer to see another tier added, and the playdays broken up over 2 or 3 days rather than require all this player juggling and team merging. By simply adding 1-2 playdays and another tier for just sponsored teams (with a more appropriate format and coverage) we could have a more meaningful competition and less messy alliances between teams.

Consider:

Pro League (Saturday, 3 x Bo5, round robin)
MiTH, ArcMSI, SQLT, Mski, xGKing, Herocraft, international team/s invited? (can help with this)

Expert League (Friday, 7 x bo3, round robin + playoffs)
aLt, TA, inFi, SPR, dtG, ToT

Elite League (Friday, 5 x bo3, round robin)
-Open

Adept League (Thursday, 5 x bo3, round robin)
-PDCL

Rookie League (Thursday, 5 x bo3, round robin)
-BSGCL

Something like this caters to the different format and exposure requirements for each team or clan. Face it, a team's sponsor will barely notice a relatively small clan league even when a team it sponsors is participating let alone when the team is padded by a bunch of other players from other teams, and is playing against people who are not even in sponsored teams.

This format above would be very easy to implement and not disrupt current signups, as for the top 2 tiers (Pro and Expert) players could and would overlap. Additionally it is a lot easier on the admins. Having a maximum of 2 leagues running any single night it means if one of the designated admins covering a league can be replaced by a volunteer from the other league admins because he or she won't be busy on the same night with their own league's games. Prime time on the weekend is given to the Pro Teams as they appreciate the additional exposure, and the leagues with a lot more players and so less chance of walkover is held on the day most likely to present walkovers (with people going out friday night).

What do people think? It's not too late to tinker with the format, as we have seen it's been mixed up right until the most recent signups (with xG and SQLT merging despite being seperate invites). If you need more detail I could whip up a liquipedia page to give a holistic view of the fixtures and format.

EDIT: If anyone is worried about the funds being spread too thin between this and the FA cup style games I think either ditching the FA cup completely would be an option, or save that for down time between the general clan league to keep clan interest and activity up rather than just spiking when SEACLs run. OR I am sure donors would be willing to bump the prizepool a bit to see more of their favourite teams included.

Quick Comments

	Cute:
	Maynarde:	Good idea
	ProAnnn:	Actually i would prefer this!
	syfChadMann:	Good idea! :D
	x5.Revenant:	Well thought out~
	Volition:	good post
	TADivinity:	yes yes and yes

Peleus · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 4:29 PM

Agree a bit with del here. This isn't to take away any of the fantastic work people have been doing and putting in towards this, but I think that the community should come first, and the sponsorship / prize money / "esports growth" should come second.

I know a lot of the motivation for accommodations has been to fit in the top players on SEA to showcase what we have, in an effort to gain more sponsors, exposure etc, but without the community behind it it will never grow and progress.

Seems like with the best intentions in the world it's gotten bigger than ben hur, trying to be so many things at once. A cut back version focusing on the core idea of showcasing the best clans on SEA could be a really polished affair, and once it's demonstrated that the SEACL can be run professionally and smoothly (as I'm sure all the wonderful volunteers can do) it will certain grow to accommodate more casters / admins / leagues / casted matches.

I feel this post may be taken the wrong way, and as disrespectful towards all the work that the SC2SEA people are putting into this, but as always I want the best for the community first.

Quick Comments

Maynarde:

Don't be ashamed to say what you think.

**Maynarde** · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 4:43 PM

I feel like I agree with a few of deL's points here.

The format is quite nice, and not too heavy of a shift from the current one. Merged teams are good to make up numbers, but I'm sure what everyone wants is for their team to be represented at the highest level without the need to make up numbers and show what their squad can really do.

I'm not sure if there's a need to spread it over several days though? Perhaps Expert, Adept, Rookie all played on a Thursday night while Elite and Pro played on a Friday night? If Elite is an open tier for whatever make shift team you want for funsies, then there will be alot of players from Expert, Adept and Rookie in it I'd imagine. Saturday night can be pretty tough for those few with social lives and girlfriends >_>

crAzerk · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 4:51 PM

I like what del is saying, as currently it seems to be getting abit stretched with the merged teams and all.

However, if we do split up according to these tiers, I think we should scrap the FA Cup otherwise our resources will really be stretched.

**Maynarde** · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 5:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crAzerk

I like what del is saying, as currently it seems to be getting abit stretched with the merged teams and all.

However, if we do split up according to these tiers, I think we should scrap the FA Cup otherwise our resources will really be stretched.

If resources are stretched (money or people) I'm happy to sweeten the pot cash wise and there are some people that deserve a go at admin-ing who have a chance to shine

crAzerk · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 5:21 PM

Quote:

some people that deserve a go at admin-ing who have a chance to shine

I have done some mental calculations and it doesn't seem we exactly have an abundant of volunteers but I could be wrong. Maybe you could do some hypothetical slotting in of people into the actual slots and see if we really do have an excess of volunteers.

VB_WhiplashJC · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 5:28 PM

I have no valid opinion on the top two leagues, but del it looks like you've gotten rid of the strengths of the current format (non restricted player leagues and promotion/relegation) for no reason?

Playdays should be negotiated by the teams regardless imo anyway.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

deL · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 5:33 PM

Thanks for the support guys, after I posted that I kinda re-read it and felt I came across as negative. It's not that, it's just that I care a lot about this game, community and members and really want everything to run as well as possible! Big thanks to everyone making it happen!

Quote:

Originally Posted by VB_WhiplashJC

I have no valid opinion on the top two leagues, but del it looks like you've gotten rid of the strengths of the current format (non restricted player leagues and promotion/relegation) for no reason?

Playdays should be negotiated by the teams regardless imo anyway.

Aside from the top 2 leagues the others are similar to the current format, and you can keep the promotion/relegation format (I was the one who suggested it initially I think lol) I just didn't explicitly state it here. The 'open' league covers the non restricted player league!

Quick Comments

Stallion:

such a BAWS :D <3

mGMUSE · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 5:35 PM

just have two different leagues.. one for CLANS(a little more casual) and another one for TEAMS(more competitive)

x5.Revenant · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 5:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAdeL

+ Show +

Totally agree with the Pro League format. With inFi's lineup being scarce(RedArchon&Indy participating under MiTH, TargA being in Norway), the most possible scenario for us is to have 3-4 players max because of the commitments all of our players have(See TCL4: There's almost always >3 aMSI players having to play). With three sets of Bo5s, it would make teams with smaller rosters be able to compete.

deL · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 5:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mGMUSE

just have two different leagues.. one for CLANS(a little more casual) and another one for TEAMS(more competitive)

That's kind of what this is, but doesn't completely differentiate them. With the format that runs the team and clan leagues parallel to each other and the lower tier leagues we can do all that fun stuff like combined overall stats and make sure everyone is active at the same time, etc.

The other option would be like Brood War where you have a format change in the middle season (so like Clan, Team, Clan, Team over the seasons) but with no guarantee of sponsorship of further events I felt this way sort of covers every base at once in a neat way.

NvRossi · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 5:52 PM

Very impressed at this idea Del. I always felt the clans should be separated from the teams in this matter and you put it into a sexy format. Much better representation of each team and/or clans full strength as well as allowing all teams to participate.

The 3 x bo5 for the pro teams caters to teams on the lower side of members and i feel it will be very competitive. Can also be catered to sponsors more?

The simple brilliance of it is that it allows players to play both for their team and clan, such as Infi players as rev mentions or sqltt allowing sensei yang to play for TA and pig can play for both tt and alt if he chooses to.

The only problem i can foresee is that there is too much content, so maybe we should showcase a different league each week? or disable the community like we did last time? (as a suggestion if the idea is approved)

Quick Comments

mGMUSE:

showcase different league each week sounds good

Snx`Azz · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 7:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crAzerk

I like what del is saying, as currently it seems to be getting abit stretched with the merged teams and all.

However, if we do split up according to these tiers, I think we should scrap the FA Cup otherwise our resources will really be stretched.

I like what del is saying, however I think we should keep the FA Cup.

Quick Comments

deL:

deL · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 7:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TARossi

The only problem i can foresee is that there is too much content, so maybe we should showcase a different league each week? or disable the community like we did last time? (as a suggestion if the idea is approved)

Subforums should help a bit with the content management. Also, if we get the appropriate admins to post their own rough recap or at least results in a private forum and designate one staff member to consolidate and publish all of the results as a weekly 'clan league recap' it should help streamline the information for the leagues.

And by disable the community do you mean while the SEACL is running put the COs and other sc2sea events on hiatus?

NvRossi · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 7:21 PM

^ yea thats what i meant

Cute · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 7:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAdeL

Subforums should help a bit with the content management. Also, if we get the appropriate admins to post their own rough recap or at least results in a private forum and designate one staff member to consolidate and publish all of the results as a weekly 'clan league recap' it should help streamline the information for the leagues.

And by disable the community do you mean while the SEACL is running put the COs and other sc2sea events on hiatus?

I definitely think CO's and the like should be put on hold during this, or the logistics of running everything is going to go to shit. There is only so much manpower available.

Weekly recaps sound fun. Everyone loves reading about their own clan. Maybe split it off into four (or how ever many divisions there are) separate columns, which could then be aggregated in one huge ass post. Interviews with players/managers would be fantastic. I'd love to know more about the people playing the game.

idk rambling

mGMUSE · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 8:01 PM

not being elitist but anyone else feel that the 'pro league' should be the only league that has prizes? having cash prizes for lower leagues just suggests smurfing all over..

league promotion as an incentive for the lower clans should be good enough, no?

**Maynarde** · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 8:08 PM

Cash prizes at the moment (from what I understand) is only for Pro Teams and what deL has to referred to as the "Expert League". The others will only have the goal to advance to higher levels of competition. The difference in prize between "Expert League" or "Tier 2" versus "Pro League" or "Tier 1" will most likely be substantial as well.

**Frogmite** · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 8:09 PM

Actually DeL's post and the OP are almost the same, so i like DeL's idea (biased opinion

)
We wanted to separate pro teams and clans since the begining but i was alone with Benji to defend this idea

.
Different format for teams and clans are also mandatory.

We will speak with other admins concerning this format, as it was already rejected by community a bit earlier in this thread.

We also wanted to split the pro league in two different days, just so more people can watch top division games.

EDIT: As teams already registered for the current format, suggestions will be taken in account for next seasons.

dippa · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 8:15 PM

Please keep the "Expert League" on a Friday as that means I'll actually be able to play (******* new work hours, grumble grumble)

FA Cup is nice, but from experience I strongly recommend it be scrapped - there's enough on admins' plates as it is, and you need to be absolutely sure that you won't get overloaded already with several divisions.

Limit the stress and make sure the multi-tier league runs perfectly first.

aLtShortizz · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 8:46 PM

Del's idea is fine, separating a Pro league and creating a format for them seems fair enoough.

But i believe each player can only play in ONE league, if ur playing in the top tier, u prolly shldnt be allowed in the Clan league.

But thats just me.

**Eddie** · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 9:02 PM

I like it deL!

I want to see all levels of players playing with their clan mates. Just as important as teams to our community imo. Having both would be awesome!

dippa · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 9:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aLtShortizz

Del's idea is fine, separating a Pro league and creating a format for them seems fair enoough.

But i believe each player can only play in ONE league, if ur playing in the top tier, u prolly shldnt be allowed in the Clan league.

But thats just me.

i think that's a bit much if the proposal to postpone all CO's and other events during the season goes ahead

the more events the merrier

TADivinity · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 9:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aLtShortizz

Del's idea is fine, separating a Pro league and creating a format for them seems fair enoough.

But i believe each player can only play in ONE league, if ur playing in the top tier, u prolly shldnt be allowed in the Clan league.

But thats just me.

Sorry, but this (not allowing them to play both) completely defeats the purpose, and then we are back to square one.

But yes, I too really like deLs idea of doing two different top leagues - that way we can see who the best all-round 'Clan' is - as well as which is the best 'Team'.

This merging business is silly imo. They are individual teams, they should have the chance to show they are the best without having to say it was a shared effort.

Quick Comments

x5.Revenant:

Catching deL's point spot on~

NvRossi · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 9:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aLtShortizz

Del's idea is fine, separating a Pro league and creating a format for them seems fair enoough.

But i believe each player can only play in ONE league, if ur playing in the top tier, u prolly shldnt be allowed in the Clan league.

But thats just me.

I dont really understand this at all? why? and gratz on NA gm :P

**nirvAnA** · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 9:46 PM

deL brings up alot of valid points, and i'll like to address some of them. this will be my final post in this thread beacuse the format is already out, its time to tweak just the minor parts and deL's suggestions is pretty much identical to what we have already decided for the league, its what people have been asking for and its what we have already implemented. The two notable differences in his format are 1) Merger of xGking+sqlt 2) separation of pro league/clans

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revenant

Totally agree with the Pro League format. With inFi's lineup being scarce(RedArchon&Indy participating under MiTH, TargA being in Norway), the most possible scenario for us is to have 3-4 players max because of the commitments all of our players have(See TCL4: There's almost always >3 aMSI players having to play). With three sets of Bo5s, it would make teams with smaller rosters be able to compete.

To Revenant:

Under deL's format, inFi will be classified under Tier 2 because inFi, aLt and SPR are considered "social clans" and not "sponsored teams". Meaning your prize pool will be less than half the original league's prize pool and the Tier 2 format as suggested by deL is 7xBo3 sets. So you need 7 players now instead of 5 and it makes it even harder for you guys to participate.

It also opens up the question - what defines a sponsored clan? Why not inFi in tier 1? Since they obviously have the talent with TargA, iceiceice, Rev, Muse and Roz to be right at the top. At the moment in SEA I only know of ONE player who gets a salary every month. Everyone else is sponsored by equipment / flight tickets and then again, for some teams its just ONE or TWO of the players in the whole team, not everyone. Next, following deLs definition of sponsored teams, glade and tguns team would instead play alongside the Tier 2 teams as a "social clan" which is again not what we want. If glades team gets to play in tier 1 why not inFis - they both have no sponsors? Thats why it doesn't make sense to go strictly by definition of "sponsored" or "not sponsored" - at the end of the day we want to showcase a league full of SEA's best players like YoonYJ and Soulman up there with the best.

Also, "sponsorship" is a grey area open for debate, what constitutes sponsorship? I don't want to sugar coat anything - alot of the "sponsored teams" don't have the budget to send their players OVERSEAS, look at IEM for instance with the whole top 10 forgoing the opportunity to Kiev for IEM - firstly because the air ticket is really expensive but more understandably because eSports is still undeveloped here and big sponsors haven't stepped in. And thats what we have to do, instead of the separation of the prestige, skill and resources, make the most competitive league, attract more viewers and sponsors and encourage players and teams to grow and I think splitting up the talent/viewers/prestige of the league by separating the "pro teams" and "social clans + glade" in another is a step in the wrong direction which will hinder that growth.

To deL:

Separation of pro league / clans - along with the reasons in the above paragraphs, it will be hard to split resources (prize pool / manpower admin/casting are already stretched VERY thin now as it is). Neither do i want to split viewership. People want to watch GSL, MLG, dreamhack, other events too, not just SEA events every day. I think its way too ambitious at the moment to have the league so split up that much in resources. It will put alot of strain on the admins (logistic organisational nightmare) and casters and a format of 3xBo5 isn't very appealing to spectators.

I think this format could work very well in the future, once the scene is developed and all the best players like glade, tgun, ice, targa etc are picked up by teams. Only then can we have what we truly call a "pro league" with all the best players and an "amateur league" with the clans and up and coming players. Wouldn't that be the purpose of the separation? Right now the the "pro teams" dont really have all the "pros" and the separation to exclude all the other top players and create another division just because they are not "officially sponsored" doesn't make sense to me.

xGking + SQLT Alliance - The ONLY team that is having alliance at this point is SQLT + xGking. MiTH and inFi are separate teams now as are all the other Tier 1 teams. I agree it does not make sense at all to combine SQLT+xGking other then the fact they lack the numbers. Since SQLT did not want to be represented as an independent team, I personally would have preferred if sensei/yang to have gone back to TA and HuT to xgking/ngen and ninja to alt. Because those are their original clans it makes so much more sense that way, and from the SQLT sponsor's perspective, they are now represented by 3 teams not just one and have a 3/8 chance to have a member from a winning team compared to a 1/8 chance (assuming all teams have an equal chance for simplicity) so that shouldn't be the issue.

So i left it up to the players to decide who they wanted to play for. I said "let infeza the manager decide" cause i assumed he would discuss with his players before giving me his answer of their collective thoughts(whether he did or not i have no idea). And infeza's answer was what i assumed to be the players choice and that was to play for xgking. So yes this issue can be looked at more, but apart from this team they are the only "unnatural alliance" in this league!!!

"SEACL name" - Just a technicality, called SEACL cause its easier, its already been renamed the SEA xxx League theres no mention of team/clan.

Conclusion + some changes: League should can be spread over 2 days, anything more would be too demanding. May/froggy and i discussed it and decided Tier1 and tier 2 to have 10 teams each instead of the original 8. xGking + SQLT issue may need to be looked at further.

We have listened and implemented alot of the good suggestions in the SEACL threads. First we started with a Bo5 format. People complained saying it should be smaller to accommodate teams with 3-4 players. So we switched to a TCL with 4 players. inF

, TAscarecrow and others complained saying that it doesn't reward depth and its not like the typical team/clan competition. So we switched back to Bo5 and now inFiRev is saying his team is too small. TAdeL comes out with a suggestion which kinda tries to accommodate all teams by separating pro teams/clans but we feel it will do more harm then good to split up the viewers/prize pool and prestige of the leagues.

The point i am getting at is its impossible to please everyone, even clan mates have different opinions from each other. I make changes and Xxx says this. I made Xxx suggested change and yyy says this. Even now i'm getting alot of heat and losing friends from teams who think they should have been in Tier 1 because they think their team is better then the others i have invited. Yes this is a thankless job and i am reminded about it every day.

I'd say we can still fix minor details but lets not spend anymore time on the major format. This has taken alot of time already (i really hate writing essays, i mean with all this time i could have competed my WCG/Australia blogs which i've been really wanting to finish *sigh*) and its time to move on and finalise everything. Let the season run its course and we will collect feedback at the end once we have actually experienced it. The time management required by the admins/casters, the players feedback from their matchday format, the amount of viewers for each league etc we will get a much better understanding of all of these factors after going through it and we can always make the appropriate adjustments for next season.

SEACL#1, SEASL#1 had lots of debate with everyone thinking their format was the best one too. In the end it went smoothly and everyone liked it, and i have no doubt this season's SEACL will follow the same too. With that being said lets focus on setting up the league, making the wikipages, schedules, getting the admin roles sorted out, managing the team rosters, sorting the divisions etc. There is still alot of work ahead of us and I hope everyone helps to play a part in making this a big success so we have many more SEACLs to look forward too.

Quick Comments

TAriiChard:

agree with most of it especially the "xGking + SQLT Alliance". new name = SEA TCL?

syfMiley · Tue, 27th-Dec-2011, 9:56 PM

I actually kinda like deL

TargA · Wed, 28th-Dec-2011, 6:56 AM

i agree with muse and del, remove the "pro" teams and only allow clans.

Quick Comments

	Zealo:	wrong thread, very late
	Fourby:	balance for noob rep
	TAriiChard:	FXOTArga

deL · Wed, 28th-Dec-2011, 12:58 PM

I just thought the point of hosting a SEA clanleague is because you get to cheer for clans and it has a very social atmosphere regardless of the players who are playing or not, and regardless of the format being 3 bo5s or 5 bo3s. If we just want to turn it into a 'showcase top SEA players' with merged and made-up teams we might as well just run a SEASL. I think if you look at who voted for a SEASL in the original thread and the reasons posted, they would be similar (if not the same people posting) to posts asking for separation of the clans and teams now.

NvRossi · Wed, 28th-Dec-2011, 4:02 PM

How about listing Alt as a team and as a Clan if they feel underrepresented, as well as maybe allowing flash to be represented by rev muse roz or something?

allowing full representation of every clan and team in SEA in a strongly competitive environment

Quick Comments

x5.Revenant:

It seems like quite a good compromise and allows both teams AND clans to be represented~ It's worth considering.

deL · Wed, 28th-Dec-2011, 4:04 PM

Yah I guess top level could be clans looking for sponsorship too which I guess would include aLt and maybe inFi (and they said they like that format better) so that could work out well.

NvPinder · Mon, 12th-Mar-2012, 6:20 PM

Wait, there's no playoffs of tier 1?

Seriously?

Like not even a finals between top 2?

Wow.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

all i do is complain, i also can't be bothered to read.

Stallion · Mon, 12th-Mar-2012, 6:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAJPMoney

Wait, there's no playoffs of tier 1?

Seriously?

Like not even a finals between top 2?

Wow.

isnt it frog cup?

**nirvAnA** · Mon, 12th-Mar-2012, 6:22 PM

Yea top 4 go into frogcup thats basically the playoffs

Quick Comments

	NvPinder:	If there is the main prize going based on season results it isnt 'basically the playoffs'
	Stallion:	double prize is a good prize

**nirvAnA** · Mon, 12th-Mar-2012, 6:29 PM

The prizes are both $300 for the league and $300 for frog cup its the same, read please

Frogmite informed team leaders about this over a month ago. and yea pinder heres some neg rep in return.

as to the playoff issue its not a matter of anyone wanting it, im fine with whatever people want, of course we will do what the sponsor wants, its his tournament!

The problem here is when we came up with the initial rules and I ran it past everyone in the per-tournament discussion threads we stated no play offs and nobody said anything. About half way into the season, we realized some teams were not aware of this playoff issue, so froggy pms all the team leaders and asked if they were ok with it or would rather change it to playoffs.

This is because changing the rules halfway though the season will be unfair to some teams (unless every team agreed) because at that moment xgking and mineski were are the top of the table by a bit. I voted to have playoffs too but it wasn't a unanimous vote from all the teams. In the end what frogmite decided to do is sponsor $300 out of his own pocket so we could have a form of playoffs.

What i dont understand is even after all of that there are people complaining. Basically prize pool was doubled and there are two tournament winners now - for those who wanted the playoffs and for those who didn't.

TAriiChard · Mon, 12th-Mar-2012, 6:36 PM

It's not "basically the playoffs"... They don't play off for the $300... They get "invited" into a different tournament that has another $300 prize. I had a chat with JoFritz about this tournament not having playoffs and he had no idea about it and didn't seem too happy. He personally wanted playoff for his own tournament but it was you guys who decided against it. Everyone I talked to wanted playoffs for JoFritz's tournament.

**syfChadMann** · Mon, 12th-Mar-2012, 6:37 PM

To be fair, While Pinder may have incorrectly expressed himself and the Neg rep wasn't required...

His statement has merit. The Frog cup is not a Play off series from SEAL Tier 1 - it is more an invitational event where top four finishes from SEAL are invited to participate. I understand his point - the winner of the SEAL will be decided in the main season, where as the 'play offs' are a separate event...

We all appreciate these events tho, nirv and Frog.. you guys are amazing! ^_^

EDIT: I believe it was too late to change the event format - how ever, if teams, admins and Mr JoFritz want to change the event to included the play offs - maybe combine the prizes and give placements to 2nd and 3rd?... Just an Idea..

But guys, remember the SEAL is developing - I didn't expect everything to go well in the first season of this new format.. but work with us, it will be great!!

Quick Comments

	TAminimat:	T5 doing things right ^^
	Nemo:	Wise !
	nirvAnA:	yea SEAL is developing! next season will only get better

NvPinder · Mon, 12th-Mar-2012, 6:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

The prizes are both $300 for the league and $300 for frog cup its the same, read please

Oh nevermind, if the separately run invite tournament has a similar prize pool, then that completely changes everything!

And way to do what you would call 'abusing' your own rep system by downrepping someone simply cos they downrepped you, lol.

Last post in this thread before you banhammer me for being surprised there's no playoffs and thus no exciting climax or real conclusion or anything to something that's been hyped to death for a long long time.

EDIT: out of curiosity, is the team who said "We don't want playoffs" willing to step forward so we can at least know who wanted to ruin the climax of the season for $300, lol.

Quick Comments

Stallion:

this cahnges eeeeeeevvvvvvvvvveeeeeerything ^_^

**nirvAnA** · Mon, 12th-Mar-2012, 7:07 PM

People don't get banned for expressing surprise, they get banned for rudeness to admins. People don't get "banned for making rep comments", they get banned for inserting personal attacks into rep comments which they have be warned about many times before to bypass the infraction system. I don't want the site to become a place with people 24/7 bitching about shit or being rude to admins when they could have just said the same thing without the unnecessary sarcasm or rudeness. If people see this is allowed, noone will wanna be an admin its a thankless job as it is and when there are no admins there are no tournaments. Just last week PickleWeasel was temp banned for his rudeness to admins by frogmite, even though the case he argued turned out to be correct, because he was very rude about it. Let people get away with this and sooner or later this turns into the CS community. And it is all linked together, the site and tournaments are run by the same people we are not a multi-national conglomerate, if you wanna be participate in what we do just behave and you will never be banned.

And btw a lot of the stuff you say about Benji's casting where he tends to focus on the negative instead of positive in his casting can be applied to yourself too and the way you "critique". In every single tourney we run you are there criticizing it in a very negative fashion right from the get go to the finish line. Why not be positive about it or try to say the same thing in a nicer way? E.g "I felt the tourney would have been much better with playoffs. Right now something is missing that would have provided an exciting climax to the season". People will be more happy to accommodate requests when they are asked nicely as well as more more willing to listen and ensure the same doesn't happen in the future.

We have spent countless hours on league and and it isn't a nice feeling when at the end of all that all you can say is "no playoffs? seriously?!?!" instead of expressing appreciation for all the time and effort all the admins have put into running this. Or if you feel we aren't entitled to that at least express your opinion civilly without it being laced in sarcasm that would be a basic courtesy to show especially if you contribute nothing but harsh criticism every time.

Quick Comments

ToR.Arnor:

well said,

**Nemo** · Mon, 12th-Mar-2012, 7:09 PM

It's better if we stop this incoming drama now and I ask everyone not participate in a brawl. The rules have been fixed by now and as Chad stated, it would be unfair for the future winner to change them now.

IMO, Frogmite has already fix that in investing his own money (if I'm not mistaken) so we have the "playoffs" without being unfair for the regular winner of the championship. I think Frog would not have created this Cup if there had been a playoff at the championship (IMO from what I have guesses, this engages only me).

For the next season, there will be a debate elsewhere (and civil too).

Riichard, please, don't add salt on this. If JoFritz want to say something about this, he will do it himself. And in fact he won't do this publicly because he doesn't want to make drama. He will discuss it directly with the organizers. I believe they have enough respect for him to listen carefully to his opinion.

Nirvana, please don't answer anymore on this particular subject "playoff or not", that's not the place and if there are moderation to do, Forgmite, Maynarde and Baka will deal with it, don't worry.

Guys we don't need that, please, let's all be wise and calm.

Quick Comments

	ROOTPetraeus:	nemo is a boss
	nirvAnA:

deL · Mon, 12th-Mar-2012, 7:11 PM

I was under the impression from the start that Tier 1 (premier league) was to be the only tier with playoffs, and admins of lower leagues were free to take a poll and decide if they would run them too. When did this change?

**Nemo** · Mon, 12th-Mar-2012, 7:14 PM

Pinder and Nirvana - really - stop to post on that now please.

Quick Comments

	ToR.Arnor:	agreed, not the place or the time clearly a dicussion for 3 months ago
	nirvAnA:	Moved the posts to the 3 month ago thread!

aLtShortizz · Mon, 12th-Mar-2012, 7:19 PM

This page looks strangely familiar.....