[syfChadMann]

Yeah but saying women get easy doesn't consider the whole situation.
Women gamers get no respect.. no one ever thinks they are going to be good - because they are female.
The often get harassed (sexually - or just trashed for being a girl)
They try to be involved in this male orientated world, but are told to go back to their Tupperware parties.
And much much more BS that they have to deal with

So when a Girl gamer gets this kind of treatment - day in, day out... and then they turn around and say, Ya'know what.. I'm going to give back to the community and cast matches or try and be a decent gamer they deserve to be celebrated. They have to deal with so much more shit than male gamers.. and when they can have the maturity to still work hard for this scene I think it shows so much more character than some second rate Male gamer turning their hand at casting...

I know I'm probably being 'overly sensitive' but I personally, want to see eSports as a legitimate sport and industry.. and this kind of shit is just slowing that down and is totally retarded.

[syfMiley]

I agree with everything that has been said in this thread.

(The Chad remains great!)

Quick Comments

	zeffrin:	ChadMann is retarted
	deL:	ChadMann is a gentleman and a scholar

[Bugalugs McScruffin]

MiLes, you gonna make me re-read the entire thread again?

[TAPelican]

Being a female online, and especially in such a male-driven community, is certainly not easier. But it is easier for mediocre casters and the like to draw larger amounts of views and interest if they are female.

I do take objection to benji's thoughtless cop-out argument simply because of the underlying sexist and jealous tones. The only 'semi-true' point he makes is that female casters can draw larger viewer counts, but I don't really see why this is actually an issue like he makes it out to be. His post is largely a sexist rant and I don't think it should be condoned given the context of the discussion.

It is a huge up-hill battle for females to gain any respect like chadmann points out. At times, the general attitude is akin to a female rocking up to a AFL (thats aussie rules football for the uneducated) club and being laughed at and told she can sit on the sidelines and wash the jerseys, but shes not fit to touch the ball.

I thoroughly agree with Chad's assertions that women who put in the time and effort, braving the creepers/stalkers/haters and invest their time and effort in such a masochistic community that they should be celebrated, not looked at with jealousy or envy because they can pull viewers.

As a caster you need something that is going to set you apart from the crowd in order to attract a viewerbase, and being actually good at the game, or casting, commentating or production will set you out from the crowd just as much if not more so than being female.

Quick Comments

	syfChadMann:	This guy knows whats up.
	VoxMSI.Rogue:	<3

[Kalikah]

Without getting too far into the debate, as someone on the other side of the counter (a female employee of a large video game retailer) and also a casual games enthusiast, I'd like to make a couple of general comments coming from my own experience.

First off, there are less women in games because the games are not marketed towards them - everyone knows that the main market for games = males 16-40. I myself had no interest in Starcraft whatsoever until Maynarde convinced me to try the beta, I'm just not that into sci-fi space themed stuff. Obviously after playing the game realised how awesome it is and what a huge community is involved. The amount of women going into a store or picking a 'male' oriented game is slowly rising, but the whole point I'm trying to make is that there are going to be less women playing and even less going on to play professionally and become a part of that elite E-Sports niche.

As a female working in an environment dominated by males I am frequently discriminated against, since I'm a lady, there's no way I'd know a thing about games right? Well the truth is, that after 7 years, you'd f***ing well hope so. I have dudes who end up on my side of the counter asking me a question, (which I answer correctly) and 20 seconds later, asking my male colleague the same question, who then gives exactly the same answer. You could imagine how frustrating it can be at times. What I don't understand is where this attitude comes from.

But everyone deserves a go, and whether you think they've earned their spot, perhaps having a female team member/caster/whatever is also a strategy to include women and give them something to relate to. If E-Sports continues to be a sausage fest, then where do females in general fit in? Women can offer a different perspective and add a new dynamic, and most importantly, add viewership and participation. The more women coming through, the higher calibre their work/results with more competition.

The question is, if these women were dudes, would you have even noticed or wondered or cared? Perhaps because they stand out they come under more critique and are a lot more noticeable within the industry.

Quick Comments

	Bugalugs McScruffin:	Great post.
	syfChadMann:	Well said.
	Maynarde:
	Zepph:
	nirvAnA:
	deL:	telling it like it is

[dippa]

something seems wrong about males arguing whether its easier to be a female gamer or not.

[Zepph]

I don't like people being nice to me, helping me or doing favours for me just because I'm a girl. I want to be liked, yeah, but preferably only if I've proved myself or earnt it first. If I could cast in a male voice, I would. I want people to like my casting because they learned something from it, they found it entertaining, or even just because I'm showing that I'm improving and making an effort to bring better quality commentary. Yet when I first started casting it was hard to come by constructive criticism even when I asked for it, as people were too preoccupied with being nice saying "I like your voice" or "I think you did fine (:" to say anything negative.

The same stands for when I played WoW. I agree with Nirvana's comment "you will level up the fastest you have in your life and any gear that drops will be force fed to you even though you can't even use it." My old server was pretty small and everyone knew everyone. Being a US server also, I eventually became known as "that aussie chick" (and not because I advertised myself that way). I had people insisting on doing me favours and talking to me incessantly for a piece of my attention and of course I had my fair share of creepers too. When I transferred to a server with a few of my real life friends on it, one of them admitted to me that he was skeptical of putting me in his raid group because he thought that being a female I would be bad at doing my job in boss fights.

To me this is largely put down to what ChadMann said - "no one ever thinks they are going to be good - because they are female." So when a girl does alright, people are in a sense pleasantly surprised and therefore are more inclined to treat them more nicely than someone else. Keep in mind though that I'm making a very broad generalization. I know not everyone bends over backwards for a female when they meet one in the gaming arena and many people could care less about someone's gender. I also accept that particularly in the starcraft 2 community, the few females that people do know about haven't always made the best impressions so some of these opinions come from that too.

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:
	Kalikah:
	deL:	they're nice to you cos you're a colombian drug lord

[syfMiley]

Beta keys for all!

Quick Comments

	Bugalugs McScruffin:	Where do I get my beta keys?
	Nemo:	lol

[SLCN.Kez]

I don't think I pointed this out but I feel as I should. I never said I have a problem with girls playing games, Ive played with/against many girls in WoW, CS, Dota, every e-sports game you name it, I've played with girls. I wouldn't say they are any better/worse than guys, how good they are is just how good they are.

Also, I have no qualms with girls who have worked hard to get where they are in the community or onto a team if they are good enough to be there, ie. my view on kellie. I dont think people (I hope not) are calling me sexist, but are rather saying all the views of the thread are.

In regards to the female opinion on gaming, I think that since it is so male dominated, guys will trust guys opinion more, I dont think its particularly right, but you cant deny it. Would a girl not get a second opinion on something that is female orientated when her initial source was from a male. It might be an exaggeration but I think if the situation was reversed you could see my point.

The reason I went to all the effort for pointing this out is because I so strongly believe that men and women are equal, and to see this is kind of saddening, as it so obviously points out the differences. It would be stupid to think a male commentator for netball would all these extra opportunities because he is a male in a womans game, so I dont see the reason why we should do it in our game, but I guess woman wouldt focus so much sexual attention on the male caster like the guys do to the girls in e-sports, which makes me quote myself in the opening post saying "It is obviously not the girls fault that there are so many problems at the moment with girls in the spotlight at televised e-sports events."

This thread got way off topic I believe since people started talking about girls gaming in general. The opinion girls get it easier/are worse etc in just playing a game is entirely retarded. My only issue came from when girls get special treatment in professional e-sports (ie casting, teams etc) purely because they are female and it will helps sales/viewship, irrespective of their talent. If they have the skill and expertise to be there, I'm all for it and will support them 100%.

I do agree it obviously takes time for someone to become a better caster and that sometimes these women are genuinely trying to get better, and after initially not doing so well they can become good and stay in the scene. People might say that it is fair they CAN get preferential treatment in e-sports because they are women because of all the extra creepy shit they have to deal with, and to some extent I do believe this is true, however, I also think people forget how much hate male casters get for whatever reason, and whilst sexist hate might be more hurtful than regular hate, I don't think the 2 are that dissimilar and warrant preferential treatment, but I could be wrong, Ive never been a girl in e-sports.

This will probably be my last post in this thread, Ive had my say, people have had theirs, there will always be disagreement among the parties, I just hope people got something useful out of it. I know i certainly have with how shit some girls can be treated and that really sucks, so the more power to ya for playing the game!

[zeffrin]

Personally I laugh at dudes who play netball, heh

Quick Comments

deL:

I laugh at retards who try to post funny comments

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by zeffrin

Personally I laugh at dudes who play netball, heh

I played mixed netball for a year, got something to say about man-ball?

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by Maynarde

I played mixed netball for a year, got something to say about man-ball?

Man, the mixed netball comps in primary school were baller...

[Mayo]

Mixed netball is farking fun as.

Why do I need to pound a guys arse into the dirt (rugby) to be considered manly? :P

[ROOT`iaguz]

Goddamn if I'd known this would be the kind of attempts people would do I'd slap together some stupid Axe jokes and collect my key.

Quick Comments

ToR.Arnor:

You have my sword!

[zeffrin]

Yah, I'm still laughing

Netball is fine if you find throwing and catching so difficult as to not be able to do it in motion

[syfMiley]

Originally Posted by zeffrin

Yah, I'm still laughing

Netball is fine if you find throwing and catching so difficult as to not be able to do it in motion

All that stutter stepping really messes with your knees after years of playing.

[zeffrin]

Originally Posted by TAMiLes

All that stutter stepping really messes with your knees after years of playing.

This I don't doubt, actually the sudden stopping constantly would be quite jarring on the joints

Netball injuries are no joke, this I know... ankles really cop it in that game.

But I still say it's a game designed for people who find throwing and catching too difficult to perform in flight

[crAzerk]

Not taking any sides here but just offering some explanation from a Psych student's perspective (I love to discuss Psych stuff )

The Psychology Part
There is this thing in Psychology we learn called 'confirmation bias'. What this means is that it is human nature to seek out information that is in line with our beliefs, and ignore information that contradicts it.

The stereotype that exists is of course - 'females are bad at gaming' or some variation of this statement, whether in meaning or phrasing. This is the belief that many people have.

Thus when males encounter a female gamer who IS bad, he's going to naturally think 'I knew it' or 'yea she's a girl' or something along those lines. It reinforces his stereotype. It's reassuring to think that. It makes him feel at ease.

But when he encounters a female gamer who is GOOD, he is going to be like 'wait what? no way', and this contradiction to his belief is going to cause some amount of cognitive dissonance (in laymen's terms, make his mind uneasy).
He may then proceed to make misattributions such as 'She must have been lucky' or 'I am tired, that's why I lost', (which are called fundamental attribution errors) where he credits the success of the girl to situational factors(she got lucky) rather than personal factors (she is good)

These attributions help to ease the cognitive dissonance in him and thus such 'evidence' just 'bounces' off him, and he ignores these. 'Girls are bad at gaming' remains a personal belief. The effect may even be strongly positive reinforcing - that it could be a matter of personal pride, that he is defending the age-old sexist myth that Male > Female.
His group identity as a Male induces him to want to defend this at all cost (according to social identity theory), and that includes making such attribution errors and holding on to such stereotypes.


Therefore , for the awesome female gamers out there being discriminated against, do forgive the male chauvinists, they are almost programmed to behave this way. This kind of discriminatory behaviour of course does not apply only for the gender issue, but for race issues, and even simple ingroup-outgroup matters (e.g. SC2 vs WoW players. For example, 'All WoW players have no skill so they play WoW instead of SC2' )

For the males who still have this sort of stereotypes ingrained in them - do try to actively suppress it, and approach each female gamer with an open mind.

Quick Comments

	Zepph:	wow! Interesting :)
	syfChadMann:	nice

[zeffrin]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

Not taking any sides here but just offering some explanation from a Psych student's perspective (I love to discuss Psych stuff )

**** yeah, the question is, eventually some stimuli must force the observer to reconsider their belief, what does it take to achieve that?

You talk about being beaten by girls straight up, but i'd say this might not be the case, well at least on the ladder if so we don't know. If the girls were out owning face as a regular occurance then this belief wouldn't have been able to form in the first place.

Being a psych student, are you prepared to also discuss the difference in brain development which occurs between male and females which ultimately leads to a difference in spacial skills?

And, from your more educated perspective, would you consider lower spacial skills a possible reason for women on average being less skilled in RTS and FPS games?

And in turn, would the greater communication skills women posses account for at least some of their greater success in MMO games?

Relevant points for discussion from http://www.medicaleducationonline.or...d=46&Itemid=69 below

(3) Cellular connections: while men have more neurons in the cerebral cortex, women have a more developed neuropil, or the space between cell bodies, which contains synapses, dendrites and axons, and allows for communication among neurons .

(4) Corpus callosum: it is reported that a woman's brain has a larger corpus collusum, which means women can transfer data between the right and left hemisphere faster than men. Men tend to be more left brained, while women have greater access to both sides.(however other studies have told a different story).

(6) Language: two areas in the frontal and temporal lobes related to language (the areas of Broca and Wernicke) were significantly larger in women, thus providing a biological reason for women's notorious superiority in language-associated thoughts. For men, language is most often just in the dominant hemisphere (usually the left side), but a larger number of women seem to be able to use both sides for language.

(7) Inferior parietal lobule (IPL): it is a brain region in the cortex, which is significantly larger in men than in women. This area is bilateral and is located just above the level of the ears (parietal cortex). Furthermore, the left side IPL is larger in men than the right side. In women, this asymmetry is reversed, although the difference between left and right sides is not so large as in men. This is the same area which was shown to be larger in the brain of Albert Einstein, as well as in other physicists and mathematicians. So, it seems that IPL's size correlates highly with mental mathematical abilities. Studies have linked the right IPL with the memory involved in understanding and manipulating spatial relationships and the ability to sense relationships between body parts. It is also related to the perception of our own affects or feelings. The left IPL is involved with perception of time and speed, and the ability of mentally rotate 3-D figures .

(9) Limbic size: females, on average, have a larger deep limbic system than males. This gives females several advantages and disadvantages. Due to the larger deep limbic brain women are more in touch with their feelings, they are generally better able to express their feelings than men. They have an increased ability to bond and be connected to others .

[Starcraftmazter]

Eagerly waiting for tossgirl to switch to SC2 and own it up in the GSL.

Quick Comments

deL: