[rheotron]

A few simple questions.

I find this happens to me occasionally. I scout too early/forget to scout later and then I have only a limited idea as to what he's doing. For example, I scout and I see lings/roaches out the front of his base, so I begin to go colossus/gateway units. After a few engagements across the map, I see muta/ling at which point I'm at around 180 supply of colossus/gateway and there is not much I can do to change my composition.

What should I do at this point? When I see that I have totally the wrong composition, is it just GG from then? Or is there a way that I can salvage the game? Does it just come down to scouting better and more often?

Also, should I push straight away when I'm at 200 supply? A lot of times I feel like I just leave my units sitting there doing nothing when I'm at 200/200 because I don't have the confidence to push. If I shouldn't push as soon as I hit the 200 mark, what should I be doing to make the best use of my units?

[Aean(:]

Well, reading from your post, you seem like a low-leaguer. instead of just making your goal to counter opponents unit compositions, try to deny the zerg's 3rd or something (with their units countered).

you shouldnt be losing to muta ling if your on colossus/gateway. just forcefield to prevent lings and mutas will die to stalker/sentry. (put up guardian shield, it reduces their bounce damage a lot).

[Rythos]

I'm only a gold league player myself so take my advice with a grain of salt, but here are some thoughts for you:

* I'm not sure what opening you use, but I do a 3 gate sentry expand for PvZ and find that around the 7 minute mark when I'm expanding and starting to warp in some stalkers is a good time to for a poke against a zerg who has gone for some sort of fast hatch. I like to do this because it forces a drone-happy zerg to build some units (thus slowing their economy down), and it gives you a look at what units they are making. Seeing a bunch of roaches or just a bunch of lings at that point is a pretty good clue for what direction they're heading in. The most important thing is not to overcommit to this poke and lose your army. If they have enough defense to take out a few of your units, just forcefield and retreat.

* Observers are pretty darn good. If you've scouted and gone for a bit of a poke you should know if you have time to get a couple of observers out instead of immortals. I find it's pretty rare for zerg to have detection in the early game unless you've shown them a good reason to get it, so your observers can often just look at the whole base. Hallucinated phoenixes are also a good option if you're lacking on info.

* What to do at 200/200 is something I'm a bit less sure of. I have played quite a few games where I was ahead and should have pushed earlier though. If your opponent is behind, any time you spend at 200/200 is just letting them catch up. I would say push before 200, take a 4th and start getting extra production so you can spend that money that will be starting to gather on re-maxing quickly.

[CCJester]

mid game scouting strikes me as one of the more important and yet hardest things to do in sc2, so i completely understand the issue.
Im going to assume you're a protoss judging by your questions.

1st - id say use those observers, they can be a massive help in mid game scouting, not only for composition of the army necessarily but also the tech paths and an idea of what the opponent might be trying to get to. remember, you can have more than 1 obs...

2nd - as far as 200/200... especially against a zerg opponent, its better to move out straight away, i mean by this stage you should be on top of those upgrades anyway so it shouldnt be a matter of waiting for them to finish. but id also say that its important not to just sit back and get to 200 and then push. A good zerg will crush you. Feigning aggression to stop worker production, utilizing warp prisms with dt's or zealtos is helpful. Anything really, you just need to keep that harass up to prevent your opponent from doing exactly what he wants.

[rheotron]

Originally Posted by Aean(:

Well, reading from your post, you seem like a low-leaguer. instead of just making your goal to counter opponents unit compositions, try to deny the zerg's 3rd or something (with their units countered).

Yeah, I'm in Plat and I play Protoss. Thanks for this suggestion, I'll try to incorporate this into my play in my next few games vs. Zerg. I think I need to become more confident in moving out and being aggressive, I always feel very vulnerable vs. zerg when I move out. I'm worried about ling run by's and muta harrass, I guess that's just a fear that I have to overcome by watching my replays and learning when to push and when not to push.

Thanks for the other suggestions. I've realised that I need to be much more aggressive vs. zerg opponents. Is harassing expos and stuff the best way to prevent them from going for a tech switch mid-game?

[FSDarkNemesis]

Basically, I feel, you want to try to preventing the zerg to either Tech-up or build too many hatcheries. I think it gets way scary when Zerg Players gets too many bases and uses hatcheries to crank out too many units at once (like say a 15-Ultralisks cranked out all at once, or 30 over mutalisks at once). Stay on Aggression and When maxed out, push out quick.and at the same time target as many hatcheries you see along the way.

IMO, High Templar are effective against Mutas and many light units like Lings if you can pull off a few well placed storms. And you don't need so many templar at once as long as you can use your Sentries to keep them alive.

[Maynarde]

Imo the zergs power is their ability to expand quickly and get the insane economy they require to keep the stream of death coming at you. Alot of the people that I know who get upset about not being able to beat zerg players sit in their bases making a death ball and turtle too afraid to move out.

I definitely think applying early and constant pressure forces the zerg to make static defence and units instead of expansions and drones. You got to be aggressive, zerg generally needs to react to what you're doing and if you let them take the map you will lose.

The run bys and muta harasses are scary, but to stop run bys keep a couple sentries in your base and if you scout spire tech (and you should be making observers) drop a few cannons in your mineral line and use the sentries + a couple stalkers to make a mutalisk harass seem like a less attractive idea. Plus, if you're applying pressure to the zerg and he has mutas, chances are they're gonna pull the mutas to help defend anyway.

This is all imho, but basically; be aggressive, don't be afraid to pressure the zerg. Hope that was some help.

[pikk0n]

Rheo. I'm in plat myself and I have recently hit a bump in my ZvP's when facing annoying early stargate builds.... -.- Maybe I should do a 2 base bane bust all-in..... The problem is I overcompensate with hydralisks to deal with phoenixes and voids, allowing my opponent to get colo's which directly counter hydras followed by high templars. Standard protoss death ball off 4 bases... LOL! The reason he got to 4 bases is also because of the number of cannons he has protecting each base... 8... -.- I probably lost a window to attack when he was expanding which is entirely my fault but I don't see how you can try a strat like that because frankly, the only reason your deathball of gateway/colo would lose to muta/ling is if your expos are not protected by cannons well enough. Colos basically melt away the lings and like what Aean said, guardian shield and stalkers render your mutas rather useless unless of course you somehow allowed him to get a massive number of mutas that 1 shot colos.... In which case only HTs would have helped.

[Eldrid]

Ling / hydra doom drop off 3 bases hard counters any sort of stargate play what-so-ever.

Edit: more info...

Im trying ling infestor recently and if p goes 1 or even 2 stagate for harrass I defend my 3base with queens / spores if needed into upgraded lings (+1) into about 10-15 hydra and maximum lings. Comes at around 12-13 min off the top of my head, and if they do have a coll out, it's generally only 1, and generally doesn't have range yet so same range as hydras....

Note that dropping this to their main will be much more effective than trying to bash your head against their naturals defences.

Note above timings based off forge fe...

[pikk0n]

That's interesting, Eldrid. I'm going to have to really give that a go.

[rheotron]

Originally Posted by pikk0n

Rheo. I'm in plat myself and I have recently hit a bump in my ZvP's when facing annoying early stargate builds.... -.- Maybe I should do a 2 base bane bust all-in..... The problem is I overcompensate with hydralisks to deal with phoenixes and voids, allowing my opponent to get colo's which directly counter hydras followed by high templars. Standard protoss death ball off 4 bases... LOL! The reason he got to 4 bases is also because of the number of cannons he has protecting each base... 8... -.- I probably lost a window to attack when he was expanding which is entirely my fault but I don't see how you can try a strat like that because frankly, the only reason your deathball of gateway/colo would lose to muta/ling is if your expos are not protected by cannons well enough. Colos basically melt away the lings and like what Aean said, guardian shield and stalkers render your mutas rather useless unless of course you somehow allowed him to get a massive number of mutas that 1 shot colos.... In which case only HTs would have helped.

Yeah, Stargate into Collosus is a real bitch for Zergs. I try not to use it that much, because it's relatively easily countered by better players. You need to get an OL scout in early. If you see that he has 2 gas, 1 stalker and a zealot, and 1 gate, chances are that he's going for a Stargate, at this point you need to mass queen/mutas or something like that. Hit him early with the mutas and try to do as much economic damage as possible. Follow up with regular play, based on what he's getting.

Against a toss, well against me anyway, I find my weakness is in the beginning of the game, just as I'm getting my second expo up (when I'm around 30 -40 supply, I can't remember exact timings). If I were you, I would attack then with mass ling + roach, and be weary of sentries. Either he'll cut your army in half with FF or FF the ramp and you can take out the expo + a lot of sentries.

Often my deathballs lose to muta/ling because I go to zealot heavy. The lings are no problem, but when I only have a few stalkers/sentries in my army (all the gas I have goes to upgrades/collosus) the mutas can just go to town on everything else. If that fails, they usually just hit up the back of my base.

[divinesage]

Originally Posted by Eldrid

Ling / hydra doom drop off 3 bases hard counters any sort of stargate play what-so-ever.

Edit: more info...

Im trying ling infestor recently and if p goes 1 or even 2 stagate for harrass I defend my 3base with queens / spores if needed into upgraded lings (+1) into about 10-15 hydra and maximum lings. Comes at around 12-13 min off the top of my head, and if they do have a coll out, it's generally only 1, and generally doesn't have range yet so same range as hydras....

Note that dropping this to their main will be much more effective than trying to bash your head against their naturals defences.

Note above timings based off forge fe...

Speaking of the ling/hydra doom drop, or even nydus for that matter, when do you scout for the stargates? The protoss could start pressure on you the moment you have scouted his stargates, all the while producing even more void rays from his stargates.

[DemisodaSPR]

Get hallucination... Or

If he's roach ling click on the lings, If he's +1 melee the probability of mutas increases. If he's +1 range the probability of mutas decreases. The more lings to roaches, the higher the probability of mid game mutas, but it could also be a transition into infestor, and or baneling drop (pure ling or with roach ling). Roach ling only needs 3 gas shortly proceeding lair. If he's 4 gas, the probability of mutas or infestors goes up. I don't spend much time thinking about Z tells in PvZ though, I'm sure there's tonnes more you can figure out without hallucination.

[rheotron]

Originally Posted by divinesage

Speaking of the ling/hydra doom drop, or even nydus for that matter, when do you scout for the stargates? The protoss could start pressure on you the moment you have scouted his stargates, all the while producing even more void rays from his stargates.

Speaking from experience, you need to get an OL in there early. A good toss will do a zealot wall off which will deny any drone scout. After this, he will aim to get a stalker out to take out any overlord scouts. I don't like to put down my stargate until I see this overlord is dead.

That being said, if you can get another overlord in from another angle (you might have to sacrifice it) after the first overlord is killed, it shouldn't be too difficult to see.

You could also infer from what you have seen. If you see 2 gas, a gateway, a zealot and a stalker and that's all, then chances are he's going for an early stargate push. I'm not exactly sure of the timings, but try and get them in there ASAP.

The thing about this stargate build is it's very easily counterable with a few queens and spore crawlers. If his first void dies, he's very far behind because you've probably expanded already and all the minerals and gas gone into building the stargate and the void are sunk. From that point, if you go mutas and expand and harass his mineral line/deny expos, you should have it.

[Paroxysm]

Protoss suffers from a slightly immobile army, however you have to use it to try and deny the zerg from getting ahead. If you have built the entirely wrong unit composition, I think the best way to go about evening up would probably be to spend your army wisely against his. If that means sacrificing a few chargelots to kill 10 drones at his 4th expansion so be it. You need to trade effectively and lessen the zerg's ability to be ahead and make them use their mobile units to get across the map to defend their expansions. Alternatively, Multi pronged attacks would work well to come back in my opinion. Try not to 'waste' units, but use them effectively to turn around the game.

[pikk0n]

I don't ever use mutas in my ZvPs... .Probably something I should consider doing now seeing that standard roach hydra corruptor doesn't work as well. The main problem with mutas and lings here is if the protoss goes stalker heavy, your lings still wouldn't be able that much damage to his deathball if he goes stalker heavy with sentries (colos can easily kill off the lings) but then I suppose you're meant to use mutas to stop him from ever having enough gas to go with that unit composition in the first place.

[CCJester]

in general... why don't protoss players use warp prisms... i mean those things are some of the handiest tools protoss has for mid - game harass.
I watch a LOT of games... but very rarely will a protoss use that prism to, for example, drop zealots at the natural before warping in another few in the main.
I mean its still important to be sure you're trading evenly, but mid game economic damage to a zerg can be vital. Especially if its forcing a round of drones before you move out.

Noted - some protoss do you use them... but they're not common.

[ProAnnn]

Originally Posted by CCJester

in general... why don't protoss players use warp prisms... i mean those things are some of the handiest tools protoss has for mid - game harass.
I watch a LOT of games... but very rarely will a protoss use that prism to, for example, drop zealots at the natural before warping in another few in the main.
I mean its still important to be sure you're trading evenly, but mid game economic damage to a zerg can be vital. Especially if its forcing a round of drones before you move out.

Noted - some protoss do you use them... but they're not common.

Protoss players dont use warp prism because of 4 reasons

1. Robo facility is normally used for making collosus and u dont have the spare time of making warp prism.
2. A proxy pylon can do a similar job for 100 minerals
3. Most importantly, protoss have no stimmed marines / marauders that have high dps that can do enough damage to the opponent for their cost.
4. Warp prism are so slow that it cant escape in time.

Back to the topic, you shouldnt have the wrong composition if you scouts him constantly. If he is going ling/muta, you should be able to know when u notice that he doesnt have roaches. You should be able to change your composition.

About coming back, it is possible to come back with a collosus/gateway composition. Just suicide ur zealots to his 3rd/4th while warping in tons of stalkers to counter the mutas. Get blink ASAP.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	CCJester:	Thanks :D

[divinesage]

Protoss' strength lies in the deathball, not individual units. So dropping zealots to harass will only put you further behind. The only viable way of dropping zealots as far as I can see is pushing out with your deathball AND warping in units from the prism into his base at the same time.

[rheotron]

Originally Posted by divinesage

Protoss' strength lies in the deathball, not individual units. So dropping zealots to harass will only put you further behind. The only viable way of dropping zealots as far as I can see is pushing out with your deathball AND warping in units from the prism into his base at the same time.

Really? I don't know if this is necessarily true.

Zealot drops/warp ins are economically viable. I mean, first of all, you'll get worker kills, 100 minerals per worker (50 for lost worker, 50 to remake) and a zealot will more than easily pay for itself once it gets into the mineral line.

In addition, he'll have to move his army back (or at least some of it) to deal with the drop. This way, you also get scouting information as well as the added bonus of delaying any pushes (at least for a few seconds). This is when you're right about pushing and warping at the same time, the army is split up meaning that it will be easier to take out.

Also, I don't know if there is a strict definition for a 'death ball', but from my perspective I think 200/200 supply. You can't warp in at 200 supply.

As I see it, unless it gets shutdown completely without doing economic damage, I'm pretty sure that a zealot/dt warp in is economically viable. That being said, I'm not pro, I could be wrong.:P

Originally Posted by ProAnnn

Back to the topic, you shouldnt have the wrong composition if you scouts him constantly. If he is going ling/muta, you should be able to know when u notice that he doesnt have roaches. You should be able to change your composition.

About coming back, it is possible to come back with a collosus/gateway composition. Just suicide ur zealots to his 3rd/4th while warping in tons of stalkers to counter the mutas. Get blink ASAP.

Thanks, sounds pretty right. I'll try this next time I get caught out. Though, I feel like my scouting is getting better and therefore, this happens less and less.