[nirvAnA]

The Initial Seedings

When the 2012 MLG vs Proleague Invitational was first announced I remember thinking to myself.. how come KesPA players are being given half the seeds! Thats not justified I felt it was too biased as they haven't really proved themselves yet etc but it was named the MLG vs Proleague invitational after all...

I haven't been following this tournament at all so when I looked at the results on liquipedia I had the shock of my life. The top tier of the foreign world and some of the best Koreans were all holding negative records. So not only did the seeding turned out to be "justified", in fact the Kespa players should have been awarded more seeds!

For those unfamiliar with the system, it goes like this. Every player in the Proleague conference will play every player in the Major League Gaming conference. Meaning Kespa players vs best of NA/EU/KR and not against each other. If they played each other you could argue that the skill level / winners of the kespa groups might be different as their players could have been less skilled, but this was not the case as they played cross division.

In other words, an individual MLG players performance would indicate his ratio vs the "average kespa player" and vice versa.

Statistics as of 14th October

(Just updated with most recent statistics from MLG's page)

• NA Players: 12/12 players Negative win ratios. Idra/Sheth is at the bottom with a record of 3-33
• EU Players: 5/6 players Negative win ratios. Socke is at the bottom with a record of 3-32
• KR/TW Players: 6/6 No Positive win ratios. MC is the best with a neutral record of 18-18. Oz, Alicia, aLive and PuMa the two time NASL champion is last with a 15-21 Record. Unbelievable!

Now the for the most alarming statistic.

• Kespa players: 23/24 players have Positive win ratios. Rain Flash and Baby lead the table with records of 22-2, 21-3, 21-3. No one has a negative ratio, the weakest link is Jaehoon who has a neutral record of 18-18.

Click to enlarge. Source: Liquipedia MLG vs Proleague Invitational

Detailed Results

Other things to consider:

• Lag / playing times of the matches
• All top kespa players were there but a few top "MLG" players not there (Stephano, MVP, Scarlett etc)
• Walkovers? Not sure if some wins were counted from that.

Conclusion

My first conclusion is the Kespa players have already eclipsed the top tier of the foreign world and GSL world. Maybe its still too early to tell but this looks like a sign of things to come, especially with SKT rain leading the charge getting in the semis of both the OSL and GSL. It looks like the Kespa players are inevitability going to replace the most elite players in the world sans a few of the best GSL players. I was quite skeptical this would happen, or at least not happen so fast. Especially since you always hear cries that SC1 players > War3 players but that was proven otherwise (at least outside of Korea). Add also the fact the GSL stars had a 1.5 year headstart.

The reign of Kespa has begun.

The next issue is what is going to happen to all the existing stars of today? Or aspiring pro-gamers, both Korean and international? Being a pro-gamer is going to be soooo much harder now. Because of them the competition and relative skill level has went through the roof. Also, after listening to grubby cast WCS Asia I feel he can earn 10x the amount he does and be set for the rest of his life being the best caster in the world. Whereas if he continues to compete vs the best of Korea its going to be such an uphill battle like it is for every top tier foreign pro except Stephano But obviously he does not play for money he plays for passion. But theres passion in commentating too!

Its going to be sad to see the stars of today inevitable fade out and by replaced by this wave of koreans kespa players. Or maybe the new stars will shine even brighter and be better idols. I did not follow the SC1 pro scene much but theres obviously friction between the two groups of players. I felt the dishwashing ceremony by Flying after beating MVP and PartinG (a reference to how previous GSL star players were Team B dishwishers) was more disrespectful than funny.

+ [Dishwashing ceremony] +

Anyway these are my thoughts on the results, interested to hear what you guys think.

Quick Comments

	Dox:	thread title :P
	iM tgun:	Sensationalist thread titling, reddit mode activated
	crAzerk:	@tgun in case u missed it, dox's comment was referring to the original title of 'has the reign of kespa has begun?'

[Bash]

I think it being played on the KR server has a bit to do with it, also we dont know how much the kespa players are putting in to this particular tournament- im not sure what commitments they have besides playing, and if they're only playing This & OSL/GSL then it makes sense they'd prepare better than most foreigners (its also easier since its easier to find replays etc of foreigners than Kespa players)

Also the incentive to put that effort in is diminished somewhat- top_ get seedings at MLG and 1 player gets 10k, if i was them i'd rather put my effort elsewhere (see stephanos reaction)

Either way, Kespa kids are damn good at the game, and if they're putting the effort in then they deserve the wins.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

lol, fine edited! >_<

[oRomiS]

I think the liquipedia page is a little outdated.I saw this on the MLG website

http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/com..._128_standings

Only Naniwa has a positive record of 19-17 among all the MLG players (MC is at 18-18),while ty,EffOrt,Flash,Rain lead the KesPA players with scores of 33-3,31-5,31-5,31-5 respectively.

[iVnschmuttt]

Man IdrA sucks so bad now T_T

[FaMe]

Originally Posted by iVnschmuttt

Man IdrA sucks so bad now T_T

Has for a long time now; don't want to be 'that guy' but his 'personality' is the only thing keeping him alive.
I think the recent NA WCS title's are the only major thing he's done in this entire year? 4th and 3rd results

[FsDronesInJail]

im not emotionality ready for KESPA to be this good already D:
Oh god my hearts racing

[Fairyking]

This is only the beginning.

[ToRSoul]

Was disappointed, would have loved to see rain in the final.

[sRDreaM]

Yeah like Zeratul said I think it's only the beginning

I also believe KeSPA players will do better then the GSL/Foreign players in the long run

KeSPA Team have excellent training facility/staffs/coaches/practice schedules they have so much awesome stuff >.<"!!

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

very good point!

[ToRDolo]

I personally think it's a great thing! Once the transitional period is over we'll start seeing more and more amazing games and no longer have to put up with sc2 being seen as some kind of second rate esport to BW as all the best coaches/players/teams are involved now. Hopefully overall as an esport it will allow things to grow even more due to the increased competition. I'm really excited to see how high the skill ceiling will be pushed by the brute force of the hard work of the kespa guys. It's definitely scary how quickly the kespa players have adapted and reached the highest level though!

[dippa]

reign of kespa

don't make me vomit

when you practice as hard as the old BW pros do, and you have access to quite literally a mountain of information - while your opponents have none on you

and you reportedly have better mechanics and a better mind for strategy (they did go pro at BW, after all)

...

what kind of result would you expect?

give it 6 months to a year and then we'll start to see kespa players become as fallible as everyone else once people get to know them better. they're not ******* invulnerable - there's just more of them.

that said, it's hilarious that the worst kespa player has the same record as the best player from NA.

but to be fair, all the GSL koreans have similarly punishing records (except puma).

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

6 months to a year and they'll prob still be owning lol, has mvp faded away?

[ToRSmotPokingFish]

just going to say 13>11 so therefore wouldnt there be 23/24 kespa players with positive ratio, only negative is jaehoon who is 9-15...

Quick Comments

Fairyking:

All Proleague are positive and Jaehoon is even. http://www.twitch.tv/thegdstudio

[AssyrianKing]

Players just have to practice harder now, but that is easier said then done

[TCPKerO]

And then HOTS drops and everything will be broken again

[Fairyking]

OOops wrong link..... Yeah all Proleague are positive Jaehoon is only even. MC is only even. Naniwa is only positive. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/com..._128_standings.

Quick Comments

ToRSmotPokingFish:

oh, i was just going of what nirv had in OP

[opterown]

The results are a bit skewed since most of the games the KeSPA players are playing are bashing on foreigners and top-level koreans; the only real good non-KeSPA player in the koreans currently is probably MC. Granted, he's not doing too great, but it's a bit early to say much - especially when 4 of his losses are forfeit losses

I don't think many people expected the KeSPA players to take very long to catch up and surpass foreigners - the real question was when they would surpass ESF koreans.

If NaNiwa (who isn't *that* great a player compared to top ESF pros) can maintain a positive record against KeSPA players on a whole, it shows that only really the top of the top KeSPA players are doing quite well.

Either way this debate really has been bashed to death; I hope for good games either way

[nirvAnA]

Thanks oRomis, updated!

• NA Players: 12/12 players Negative win ratios. Idra/Sheth is at the bottom with a record of 3-33
• EU Players: 5/6 players Negative win ratios. Socke is at the bottom with a record of 3-32
• KR/TW Players: 6/6 Positive win ratios. MC is the best with a neutral record of 18-18. Oz, Alicia, aLive and PuMa the two time NASL champion is last with a 15-21 Record. Unbelievable!
• Kespa players: 23/24 players have Positive win ratios. ty (who?), Rain Flash and Effort lead the table with records of 31-3 to 31-5. No one has a negative ratio, the weakest link is Jaehoon who has a neutral record of 18-18.

Also, SKT Rain just won WCS Asia just dropping a single map.. to Kespa herO

Quick Comments

oRomiS:

You messed up the the KesPA players scores again :P

[FaMe]

Originally Posted by opterown

The results are a bit skewed since most of the games the KeSPA players are playing are bashing on foreigners and top-level koreans; the only real good non-KeSPA player in the koreans currently is probably MC. Granted, he's not doing too great, but it's a bit early to say much - especially when 4 of his losses are forfeit losses

I don't think many people expected the KeSPA players to take very long to catch up and surpass foreigners - the real question was when they would surpass ESF koreans.

If NaNiwa (who isn't *that* great a player compared to top ESF pros) can maintain a positive record against KeSPA players on a whole, it shows that only really the top of the top KeSPA players are doing quite well.

Either way this debate really has been bashed to death; I hope for good games either way

Naniwa may not be the most solid/consistent player but among foreigner's he's definitely strong. You don't win Major title's and get to R8 GSL Code S (twice?) without being good.

[crAzerk]

Originally Posted by dippa

when you practice as hard as the old BW pros do, and you have access to quite literally a mountain of information - while your opponents have none on you
.

I don't understand - why do people talk about them 'practising so hard' as if the current GSL players don't practice just as hard? I mean, we all have 24 hours in a day don't we?

[ToRDolo]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

I don't understand - why do people talk about them 'practising so hard' as if the current GSL players don't practice just as hard? I mean, we all have 24 hours in a day don't we?

Yeah, I think when I imagine BW pros practicing somehow their hour of practice is worth a lot more than an hour of anyone else's. Which I guess is probably wrong, though, - referring to the saying 'Hard work beats talent, till talent works hard' - maybe this is a case of the talent working hard?

[ToRSpookToR]

i seriously think the GSL pros dont practice as much as the kespa players at the moment, although i am hearing it 2nd hand at the least so i could be wrong.

[eCKo`Switch]

I, for one, welcome our new KeSPA overlords.

[opterown]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

I don't understand - why do people talk about them 'practising so hard' as if the current GSL players don't practice just as hard? I mean, we all have 24 hours in a day don't we?

GSL players don't really have well-structured training regimens; their coaches are a bit less focused and fewer per team, and they have less motivation since they are less well paid. This means that most of their practice is a bit all over the place, and is mostly on ladder rather than custom games (especially so for players who aren't in teamhouses)

Of course, this is not true for all the ESF teams, but it seems to be the trend.

[Unstable]

Originally Posted by opterown

GSL players don't really have well-structured training regimens; their coaches are a bit less focused and fewer per team, and they have less motivation since they are less well paid. This means that most of their practice is a bit all over the place, and is mostly on ladder rather than custom games (especially so for players who aren't in teamhouses)

Of course, this is not true for all the ESF teams, but it seems to be the trend.

Most GSL teams have just as structured training regiments as kespa teams their coaches come from kespa teams and some have gone back to coach kespa teams, earlier it wasn't like that but since the kespa players have come to GSL, most esf teams have gotten off their asses. most practice like I explain in this blog http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=370814 it's pretty clear on which ones havent adopted that practice style

In regards to being paid more, B teamers on kespa teams definitely do NOT get paid more than most esf teams, even S class players get much much much less than people have been spreading around.

The difference is kespa does their business development, esf teams don't have any of that in most cases, but they are learning quickly.


In regards to this thread, nothing can be seen from this data, it is pointless because it doesn't factor in when they were played what server they were on. The matches themselves are skewed on who plays who at the same time.

[FSmoofang]

It's too early a call imo. I've seen very good players perform relatively poorly plenty of times when the tourney in question isn't considered important enough. For the ESF players this event is surely a little of a sideliner, whereas for the proleaguers many of them didn't make it far in GSL or OSL so they could be taking this more seriously as a place to get a foothold on the new game. The representation on the non-proleague side is a little meagre anyway, with perhaps only MC, alive and Naniwa really qualifying as anything GSL-class.

Next GSL would be where things will really get interesting I think. If Kespa is really to "reign" we should see most of the Kespa players now playing through Code A making and getting far in Code S, but imo not until then. Some of the well performing folks in MvP (flash, jaedong) have already lost in Code A too.

[syfChase]

Sad to see the current GSL roster be overtaken by the new KesPA players, but I am excited to see the new, even higher level games that will be on offer by these extremely high level and talented players