[Kyfoid]

I would like to share my story of how I had a startling revelation about protoss when I was trying make adjustments to zerg so that they could fight marine/marauder/tank with the proper counter, roach/ultralisk.

I've always felt like something which was very problematic in this game is what the intended counter against Marine/Marauder/Tank was suppose to be for zerg.

There are actually 3 general options that zerg has which come at different times, and I would like to lay those out from earliest to latest.

Earliest: Roach, Infestor

Middle: Roach + Ultralisk

Late: Broodlord

Now, why do I keep saying Roach instead of Zergling?

Reason A: Because Zerg is suppose to match what terran gets in marines with roaches.

Reason B: Zerg is trying to spend their extra minerals on drones to keep their macro going.

With zerg having to match terran's marine force with roach force, it makes it very difficult to get armored ultralisk to counter the tank/marauder in return. But the scenario should end up being zerg with Roach + Ultralisk, and then Terran countering this with Banshees.

The zergling is more of an outsider unit like the Reaper.

So I made a map with some experimental changes.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Expiramental Changes:

Roach Warren Cost: 200/100 (0, +100)
Cybernetics Core: 150/50 (0, +50)
Roach Cost: 100/0 (+25, -25)
Stalker Cost: 125/25 (0, -25)

As you can see, I lopped 25 gas costs off the stalker and the Roach, added 25 minerals to the cost of roach (Considered adding 50), and added 50 gas costs to the Cyber Core and 100 gas to the Roach Warren.

Why?

I've felt it to be kind of strange that Zerg and Protoss were able to unlock their secondary tech unit across all hatcheries and all gateways with out having to pay a dime in gas, while terran had to pay gas for each individual barrack to unlock their secondary tech unit.

With roaches not costing gas, Terran still handles them perfectly fine, the problem occurs between Zerg and Protoss as roach does well against both Zealots and Stalkers.

That's why I added a 50 gas cost to the Cybernetics core, and took away 25 gas cost on the stalker.

Keep in mind that Protoss are not deviating from the main branch of their tech when they go stalker, where as Zerg and Terran must deviate from their main tech branch in order to access Roach and Marauder...

This could be one of the smaller reasons why Zealot + Stalker do not aggression well against ling/roach and marine/marauder.

But at this point, I had a startling revelation about protoss....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Startling Revelation of Protoss:

Even though the balance changes seemed to work fine, I realized that when Zerg and Terran deviate from the main branch of their tech tree from the start, they access units Bane/Roach and Marauder, whereas, when Protoss deviates from the main branch of the tech tree at the start of the game, they make forge and macro with photon cannons..... Defense....

Now, everyone claims that a very real and standard approach to fighting zerg with protoss is the Forge/Cannon FE.

I've always wondered how this makes sense when considering the traditional wisdom of strategy gaming, "The best defense is a good offense"

Sure, it might be viable play, but I think that starting out with defense, regardless of getting more income, is kind of damning against good zerg players who play aggression with the bare minimum of offense.

Idea:

What if, included with the other changes that I mentioned above, that when protoss make a forge, it unlocks the ability to "Transform" their probes in to some kind of slow fighter unit that costs gas?

Something hardier then a queen obviously but...

You see, currently, there is this concept of offensive proxy with Protoss when they make forge... But this is cheese...

I'm saying that, I think protoss should be able to fulfill this concept of proxy, but it should be in a more viable fashion, something with out cheese....

So Just as how when Terran and Protoss Deviate from their main branch tech path with a Roach warren that now costs gas and roaches that do not, and terran with their tech labs...

When protoss deviates from the main branch using the forge, protoss must mine gas to make this new unit which transforms out of the probe, which is slow enough that in order to be offensive you need to proxy it, but mobile enough that it keeps protoss expanding and protecting those expansions.

There is still the option to go cannons, and their perk is that they don't cost gas....

Can anyone see the potential light of what I'm talking about here?

This might be a huge hole that could be filled in the protoss design.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Reason Why the Infestor is Problematic

So we're all sitting here after a good deal of balances changes so far, only to stare at a potential nerf to fungal, infested terran or both, from the words of Dustin Browder?

What could be the reason for this?

From the start, I've always found it strange that....

-Khaydarin Amulet was removed
-Pathogen Gland Remained
-Infestor Unlocks both fungal and infested marine with no research.

-Last, but not least, zerg unlocks their spell caster with out having to deviate from the main branch of the tech tree.


With that said, it's probably pretty obvious why everything funnels down to a problem with the infestor.

Now, if the gas cost was removed from the roach and the roach now costs 100-125 minerals, they would have to do a few things that would make it balanced.

A.) Roach Warren has a 100 gas cost, at the very least. (Gas cost added to cyber core, compare to terran tech labs)
B.) Infestors now have to research their destructive spells for a damn cost like how other spell casters have always had to do so, and continue to do so in sc2.
C.) Add back Khaydarin amulet?

It's outrageous, really.... to go from a mid-game spell casting queen that must research its spells for a cost, one of which is actually destructive... to this?

And you could say that zerg had the lurker.... but technically the roach is more effective for macro purposes and co-harmonizes in cost with their spell caster better then queen/lurker.

Look, the root problem of the game, as I said, comes back to the fact that protoss are missing some type of defensive unit unlocked by the forge that costs gas, and built, transformed, or morphed in the same duration it takes for a pylon and a cannon to complete, so that no pylon is sacrificed which limits the proxy approach as cheese....

Once this is corrected, the mineral only roach with a gas cost added to the roach warren, and proper research time/upgrades can be added to the infestor....

A gas cost can be put on the cyber core, the gas cost of the stalker can be reduced...

The zealot and terran can be buffed back to normal...

And then we can all sit around the fire singing songs about how amazing starcraft 2 is...

Then finally, zerg can properly combat Marine/Marauder/Tank with roach/ultralisk instead of having to over shoot with broodlords, or undershoot with roach/infestor.

Quick Comments

TABiggun:

Do you even play Starcraft 2? Because whatever game your playing is really different to mine lol

[Satu]

kt:dr

I missed you kyfoid, best troll ever.

For anyone who doesnt know, he was trolling battle.net forums and here as well around a year ago. They are good reads.

[Fairyking]

Instead of spending all your time trying to find things wrong with the game how about just enjoy and play it.

Quick Comments

UHF:

well, if he isn't enjoying it then he can't really do that

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by xGKingSatu

kt:dr

I missed you kyfoid, best troll ever.

For anyone who doesnt know, he was trolling battle.net forums and here as well around a year ago. They are good reads.

Thank you...

I just want to say that I've been banned from the battle.net forums on my 3rd account titled as "AtlasMeCH" and I'm really pissed at myself for becoming emotionally compromised.

My most recent thread there was deleted and I was penalized for harassment on a thread that was completely unrelated to the important one.

I have the writing saved here on my computer and I would upload the file as a link for you if I could as the writing is kind of long.

But the problem is that it only sees things as zerg being UP, but the corner I feel like I have been pushed in to has resulted in a myriad of crazy ideas and logic.

People find it entertaining to read, but it seems unrealistic for balance... that is, Blizzard doesn't seem to be unable to use it or implement it in anyway.

Out of my recent writing, which I feel was my best work, I had this startling revelation about protoss and now I am ashamed at how focused I was on the idea that the root problem with starcraft was zerg weakness and flawed design....

If I had just been more open and looked at things from protoss' point of view, and how they have the divided option to play macro defense and macro offense....

I would have realized that the macro/cannon route is a flawed concept...

Protoss is expected to either switch to offense, or switch to using cannons offensively....

Switching to offense after cannons is too large of a jump...

Offensive cannons is too cheesy.

This reveals the weak point of protoss design that I believe could be fixed, not even by data changes perse, but recognizing that there is a missing piece here which means there is an amazing opportunity to put a new unit in to the game for protoss.

I bet if the community came together and cooperated on what this unit might be and how it would function, that it could be very interesting, tactical, and fun to use.

in turn, we might be able to consider the further, more extreme changes to the other races.

That is all.

[Thrasher]

I must admit I am somewhat confused as to the point of this. Are you just sharing for the sake of it?

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by Thrasher

I must admit I am somewhat confused as to the point of this. Are you just sharing for the sake of it?

Well, It appears as though I am looking to the long future of legacy of the void...

I knew that if I put enough time in to this, that I might be able to squeeze of a glimmer of hope before the major foundational design points of the game were said and done, and before the 3rd installment of the game.

As for now, it appears that, yes, this is just for the sake of it... but as for the long future, and legacy of the void?

Maybe there is hope for something truly awesome here.

[Kyfoid]

Oh one last thing, I just want to add that it is ironic that the name of the 3rd installment will be "Legacy of the Void"

I am very moved and inspired by the Tao Teh Ching 45 when it states...

3

If you overesteem great men,
people become powerless.
If you overvalue possessions,
people begin to steal.

The Master leads
by emptying people's minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know.

Practice not-doing,
and everything will fall into place.
4

The Tao is like a well:
used but never used up.
It is like the eternal void:
filled with infinite possibilities.

It is hidden but always present.
I don't know who gave birth to it.
It is older than God.

Tao Teh Ching 45: 45.1 A man's work, however finished it seem, Continue as long as he live; A man, however perfect he seem, Is needed as long as he live: As long as truth appears falsity, The seer a fool, The prophet a dumb lout,

[Thrasher]

Quick Comments

	SLCN.Kez:	LOL
	Stallion:	HAHAHA

[Reere]

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Quick Comments

SLCN.Kez:

reere are you retarded? LOL

[Kyfoid]

There is one last thing I want to point out.

So the idea would give protoss a mobile yet slower style of defense that has the option to be used in an offensive manner in a legit proxy fashion. In other words, taking the forge macro direction would now be legit.

With that said, I almost feel like the Roach was suppose to fulfill that same concept with zerg, but some how this function got passed over to the hydralisk.

So instead of the roach having a speed upgrade, I believe it should not. Instead, the roach should be faster on creep, and slower off creep.

The hydralisk should function like a normal unit and have a speed upgrade at the den...

Currently, the hydralisk is treated as zerg's macro defensive philosophy with its natural highest speed on creep and slow speed off creep while not having a speed upgrade.

This role, in my opinion, is clearly suppose to be with the roach.

So, look at my proposed changes one more time...

A gas price is placed on the roach warren, let's say 100 gas.
The roaches cost is now 100-125 minerals with no gas cost.
The infestor now has to research its upgrades like a normal spell caster always had to....

Last, but not least, the Roles are switched between the hydralisk and the Roach, as the roach acts as zerg's macro defensive unit, but just like the new protoss unit, should have potential to be used offensively. I'm not sure if some sort of way to proxy the roach should be implemented for more offensive potential? But maybe the zergling already covers that.

Anyways, by slapping a gas cost on the roach warren, making the infestor upgrades priced and researched, and then making the roach less aggressive by switching its situation with the hyralisk...

I think this totally balances out to keep the roaches from being over powered if the gas cost was taken away from it. And you could take the gas cost away from it if fricken protoss had the unit that I am talking about.

Added point: With the slower roach, I think that this proves that the Ultralisk is suppose to be the legit answer for tanks, and with the new charge ability on the ultralisk, I think that pretty much says it all...but wouldn't the natural speed on creep be enough to handle tank threats somewhat until the ultralisk is got?"

[TADivinity]

OH MY GOODNESS - ATLASMECH - YOURE THAT KID THAT MADE THE "Protoss and Terran is Green, but Zerg is Red" argument.

I had that quote in my signature on this site for ages - naturally for its sheer retardedness.

If you create enough buzz I might be able to get a new quote from you

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by TADivinity

OH MY GOODNESS - ATLASMECH - YOURE THAT KID THAT MADE THE "Protoss and Terran is Green, but Zerg is Red" argument.

I had that quote in my signature on this site for ages - naturally for its sheer retardedness.

If you create enough buzz I might be able to get a new quote from you

Oh yeah lol, back when I said that

"Starcraft is a double layered trichotomy"

Reaction
Aggression
Position

+

Quantity
Quality
Ability

=

Protoss = Aggressive Quality
Zerg = Reactive Quantity
Terran = Positional Ability

And all the evidence I had to support it?

Protoss - Shields regenerate faster then zerg life, can warp in units, (agressive quality)
Zerg - Delayed Reaction because they make queens, but results in greater numbers (reactive quantity)
Terran - Bunkers can be placed anywhere and repaired... Tanks get a siege mode that holds their position (Positional, Ability)

And the point was that when you implement a double layered trichotomy that it represents a concept of 3 purely unique bodies and therefore Red, Green and Blue? The primary colors?

I remember those days

I later had the theory that lings should produce in Quads for 100 minerals in each larvae, so that zerg's macro defensive philosophy would have been zerglings, but those zerglings would have had to slowly lose life off creep to balance out...

But apparently blizzard wants that role to be with the Roach... heh...

Sigh....

It seems that people really don't like my retardation when it reaches that high of a level...

I've had to really tone it down and first figure out the most obvious root problem with the game...

I think this protoss point could be the perfect start.

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by Kyfoid

The zergling is more of an outsider unit like the Reaper.

You've... never actually watched anyone good play this game, have you?

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

You've... never actually watched anyone good play this game, have you?

Well, let's be realistic and discuss the role of the zergling.

It is definitely more of an outsider unit until adrenal, let's be honest about that.

Until that point, it's great for taking out constructing expansions that you catch as you can easily have zergling speed ready...

Finally, you really want to save as much larvae as possible for macro, so when you go two different types of units, let's say, roach + ling, it can really slow you down, so the best combo that uses zerglings for macro purposes ends up being zergling + infestor... next in line, zergling muta.

The roach is typically always more cost efficient to make over the zergling.

this game follows a sort of counter system in the following way...

Ground to Ground > Ground to Air
Air to Ground > Ground to Ground
Air to Air > Air to Ground
Ground to Air > Air to Air

Once you put the units from each race in to this counter system, ALL the units outside of this are designed to fulfill a particular role.

For example

Banelings intended for workers in particular (Fungal will always be better then banes against marines)
Zerglings intended for buildings

Which is why, at one point I felt like bonus damage to buildings should have actually been on zerglings and not banelings, and that zerglings should actually be breaking the banelings in to hit workers and units, not the other way around where zerg kind of wastes a lot of gas on merely buildings. I just felt like there could be some role confusion going on there...

But, as I was trying to say, all the units outside of that primary counter system example are intended to fulfill a role... like worker harasser, or building destroyer, etc, etc.

I don't know, that's just how I see it, what about you?

[|Erasmus|]

Well, you talked about as a counter to bio. Every zerg will tell you that roaches are less cost efficient. They are also supply inefficient, so you have to make more ovies = even more cost inefficient.

Have you ever seen a pro zerg counter bio with roaches?

The only time roaches > zerglings vs. bio is if you are incredibly larvae capped (but you probably lost anyway in that case).

and banelings used only to counter workers... I'm almost convinced now you've never even PLAYED this game, let alone watched some actually good players before making incredibly bad arguments.

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

Well, you talked about as a counter to bio. Every zerg will tell you that roaches are less cost efficient. They are also supply inefficient, so you have to make more ovies = even more cost inefficient.

Have you ever seen a pro zerg counter bio with roaches?

The only time roaches > zerglings vs. bio is if you are incredibly larvae capped (but you probably lost anyway in that case).

and banelings used only to counter workers... I'm almost convinced now you've never even PLAYED this game, let alone watched some actually good players before making incredibly bad arguments.

I guess I'm wrong but I'm not so sure you are clarifying yourself properly...

When you say zerglings, are you saying zerglings alone? Or are you saying that what you make with the zerglings is critical to the point?

Second, Fungal will always be better against marines... and honestly, I can't think of much anything else I would use banelings on besides marine... zerglings actually micro quite well against banes... um.

So yeah? I mean, I might be able to see where you are coming from if you went in to a bit more detail...

[Kyfoid]

Hmmm silence for a while....



I think the real question is, would you know when to say GG when playing a 1v1 of philosophical debate?

Maybe I should start my own gaming forum and call it "entertaining philosophy battles"

Believe me, I would be making sure that people said GG when they lost because I honor "respect and manners" when it comes to competitive sports...

[FaDeBadger]

Didn't this idiot get banned here too, or did he just **** off? Either way, can we make it happen again please.

Quick Comments

ROOTPetraeus:

no dont be mean

[Fairyking]

Lol this guy.

[wTlzq]

[syfCabracan]

I think the best part about this thread is that the changes he wants to happen won't actually improve late game roach/ultra vs marine/marauder tank (aside from the gas you are saving to put into a good unit like winfestor) and a new unit for protoss that nobody would use except in all-ins because it means you lose probes.

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by Cabracan

I think the best part about this thread is that the changes he wants to happen won't actually improve late game roach/ultra vs marine/marauder tank (aside from the gas you are saving to put into a good unit like winfestor) and a new unit for protoss that nobody would use except in all-ins because it means you lose probes.

Is it winfestors that are the exclusive problem?

Or is it how the infestor combos with roaches in particular? or Roaches + burrow heal? Hmm?

Again, with this role confusion that I'm trying to point out between the hydralisk, roach, and queen as a 3 way tear in zerg's macro defending approach, maybe the roach was actually suppose to be the fast unit on creep with no speed upgrade off creep, have a mineral only cost, a gas cost on the roach warren, and hydralisks that have a speed upgrade and burrow heal?

Then they could make the infestor more normal with spells that are researched and for a cost?


As far as zerg saving more gas, I would like to make this point...

T and P always have extra minerals being spent on basic army marines and zealots, so when ever T and P mix in Marauders and Immortals, it is like mass destruction to roach.... but shouldn't the answer be to mix a counter unit like the mutalisk with the roach? Instead of having to mix gas costing roaches to counter the zealots and marines, and mutas against marauder/immortal?

Is it really fair that T and P are saving up so much gas with these compositions when zerg is not?

Maybe, ... maybe the roach + the mutalisk is the true rightful answer and I'm wrong about roach + ultralisk...

But would the roach + mutalisk hold up?

Anyways, all I would really like to see is more gas saved up for the purpose of a more interesting counter battle... instead of just macro defending with roaches, spines, queens, infestors, spores...

[Maynarde]

Nearly closed but very funny read, please continue

[ToR.Arnor]

this guy, you're the guy I got an infraction for insulting, please continue, hopefully the ban comes in quicker this time ^_^

Quick Comments

Maynarde:

Insulting = infractable, hilarious ideas = not infractable

[syfCabracan]

Originally Posted by ToR.Arnor

this guy, you're the guy I got an infraction for insulting, please continue, hopefully the ban comes in quicker this time ^_^

He isn't actively insulting anyone or derailing other threads, I don't think there are grounds to ban him from just having really really weird ideas about balance and what units are meant to do what.

Quick Comments

Maynarde:

Correct

[ToR.Arnor]

Originally Posted by Cabracan

He isn't actively insulting anyone or derailing other threads, I don't think there are grounds to ban him from just having really really weird ideas about balance and what units are meant to do what.

yeah he is fine now, but last time he kinda got cray cray when people started picking apart his theories, thats the part im waiting for ^_^

[cruxis]

Can someone tl;dr this thread?

Quick Comments

Reere:

tl;dr requires a full read from page 1

[syfCabracan]

Originally Posted by cruxis

Can someone tl;dr this thread?

TL;DR
The OP was made by a nutterbutter who aparently has been bm to people before when he posted crazy and people called him out on it. This time around he thinks that roach/ultra should be the counter to marine/marauder tank. He proposes a change in balance that revolves around minor costing tweeks that wouldn't impact the viability of the army but would have really really big impacts on early game play.

He also thinks that the forge should unlock a mighty fighty probe change because protoss doesn't have enough useless units. This is also because they don't have "enough t1 options". He also thinks that zerglings are a weird unit and don't really have a main role in the game sort of like the reaper, this aparently can be fixed by making them cost 100 minerals and one larva for 4 zerglings, but now they slowly die when they aren't on creep. Oh yea and ultralisks are a midgame unit now

Also this marvelous gem "Starcraft is a double layered trichotomy" which translates into the races being colours.

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by Cabracan

Also this marvelous gem "Starcraft is a double layered trichotomy" which translates into the races being colours.

I say that starcraft represents a double layered trichotomy of wisdom, because of the following picture that I just made for you....



when stated "the diversity of triversity" i'm implying the division of 3 opposing 3 sets of colors, and then the uniting of them together in to a single force... "The true universal"

The philosophy of Alchemy "To separate, then join together"

When Nikolas Tesla states, "if you only knew the power of the 3, 6 and the 9, you would have the key to understanding the universe"

I challenge him because I think he overlooked the power of the 1, 2 and 3.

[TADivinity]

Yeah keep it going - they are out-of-this-world ideas and generally unrealistic, but entertaining and quite creative nonetheless.

The main problem though, is that he makes all suggestions off baseless assumptions of the current meta game that are not at all realistic.

[Kyfoid]

I'm still pretty baffled that people think the zergling is more cost efficient then the roach when the roach gets + 2 attack per upgrade and life restoration on burrow.

Can't we come to some kind of agreement here? Like we are both wrong and that the actual cost efficient unit against bio should be the Hydralisk but the problem is that the Hydralisk costs too much gas?

I mean, the intended function of the hydralisk seems to be one of defense, more specifically, "An all purpose macro defensive unit" Why? Because it attacks air AND ground, and starts out naturally capable of moving very fast on creep, no speed upgrade but is slow off creep....

I mean, if the intention is that the hydralisk is suppose to be zerg's "all purpose macro defending unit" then why are people going zergling + infestor?

I mean, if the hydralisk is only going to get + 1 attack per upgrade and not 2, isn't that grounds enough that the hydralisk should cost 100/25 as it is a step backwards from the roach?

I'm pretty sure that I know one thing, at least, and this goes back to broodwar.

I'm quite sure that the hydralisk was suppose to produce linearly at the hatchery, just the hydralisk mind you... and that it was suppose to function the same way as we see here in sc2... That it would have naturally moved faster on creep and would not have a speed upgrade...

Why? Because instead of macro defending with non-mobile sunken colonies which you practically had to mass, you would have been macro defending with the mobile hydralisk....

In turn, if the opponent wanted to get you off of hydralisk on your macro defending endeavor, all he would need to do is get the units to force you to mutate lurker.

Anyways, imagine if the hydralisk had produced linearly at the hatchery in broodwar... Going from broodwar to sc2, wouldn't blizzard's claim that "All the races will be even more unique from each other" actually be true?

Instead of hydralisks which really seem to be more of a warrior then anything else, producing linearly at the hatchery, which is a lot like terran and protoss' production... they would have said, "well we corrected this by giving zerg a queen that produces linearly at the hatchery instead" Which truly makes the races have a unique feel?

Maybe there is some severe "Role Confusion" going on here between the hydralisk and the queen, I mean, maybe the hydralisk should only cost 25 gas and the queen should have its ground to air attack removed?

I have a quote from Einstein that could go along with this...

"A perfection of means and a confusion of aims seems to be our main problem" - Einstein

All and all, I guess what I'm saying is that the roach seems to have occupied a degree of the role that the lurker fulfilled in broodwar,

And now we are staring at a defensive macro philosophy that is torn between Queens, Roaches, and Hydralisks at the moment....

I believe it should have only been a 2 way tear like how it shoulda and woulda been in broodwar.

Anyways, that's all.

[syfCabracan]

Originally Posted by Kyfoid

I'm still pretty baffled that people think the zergling is more cost efficient then the roach when the roach gets + 2 attack per upgrade and life restoration on burrow.

Roaches cost 2 food while zerglings only cost half a food unit each that's also not taking into account attack speed and a lot of other factors. I'm glad that you care this much about the balance of the game, but if you want to be taken seriously you should start laddering as well as watching every day9 daily and tastosis cast you can find to improve your game knowledge. You also need to stop assuming you know what the developers were meaning to do with all the units.

Quick Comments

RVLiveR:

He's being a troll lol

[Kyfoid]

I'm not Jewish, but....

http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/pellissier20110719

[NOM]

Quick Comments

Akilos:

I just love this gif.

[HuT]

Quick Comments

	x5_Bard:	Whats Spook doing in a space suit?
	ROOTPetraeus:	ILY SPOOK

[Kyfoid]

You Tube

You Tube

[Akilos]

moment I started reading this i decided to go and get a bag of popcorn going in the microwave.

[syfCabracan]

Drinking game.
Every time he references the purpose of the unit that he clearly doesnt understand drink.
Every time he references broodwar like it was meant to be this game drink.
Every time he brings up some abstract quote or poetry that has no obvious link to starcraft drink.
Every time he says produced linearly drink.

More rules to come.

[RVLiveR]

Every time he bolds a question drink.

[FaDeBadger]

Please stop feeding this idiot the attention he craves. His "ideas" are complete bullshit and he's lucky I'm not a mod.

Quick Comments

ROOTPetraeus:

calm down bro o_O

[Kyfoid]

At this time, I would like to go back to my old from Fri, 21rst oct-2011
On Symmetrical balance with a simple concept and point.

Everyone agrees that starcraft is suppose to be asymmetrically balanced, but my point was that to exclude the concept of symmetry entirely from balance is quite outrageous. Asymmetrical balance is practically an oxymoron when you come to consider it closely.

What if all blizzard had to do was develop a simple pattern and formula that included symmetry to a minimal degree?

For example:

Race 1 and 2 share 50% symmetry on this unit with this particular role, the other 50% is asymmetrical while race 3's unit share's no symmetry at all.

And then, you spiral this pattern through out the races, which means the next step would be....

Race 2 and 3 share 50% symmetry on this unit with this particular role, the other 50% is assymetrical, whilre race 1's unit shares no symmetry

and so on...

race 3 and 1 share 50% symmetry on this unit with this role, while race 2's unit shares no symmetry.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't you still have a completely balanced game with 3 totally unique races?

My personal opinion is that blizzard doesn't implement something like this because it would place a degree of restriction on their freedom for coming up with unit ideas that work with Lore.

But guess what? I just think that it would mean blizzard would have to do a little bit more work....

Look at it as more of a guideline to follow for coming up with unit ideas...

But if blizzard actually pointed out where they need help for coming up with a unit that sort of functions like this, this, and this... the community could help them 10 fold because a billion people throwing millions of ideas at them would result in units that would make sense with lore...

Sigh...

Blizzard does the poorest job at directing and funneling community efforts to be productive.... they make us feel like we don't even have a shot at potential contribution.

[Kyfoid]

Omg, I just had a realization on the point of this new protoss unit idea.

So let's say that the role of the roach and the hydralisk was switched, the roach now costing minerals alone (more minerals mind you) natural speed on creep, slow off creep. Roach warren now costing gas, maybe infestor spells that are researched like a normal spell caster now.

My thought was that this protoss unit would be unlocked by the forge, cost gas, and counter the roach, but then I realized that I was just creating the same problem for protoss that zerg currently seem to have. That is, all zerg would have to do is make roach, and then protoss would be forced to use gas to macro with this unit (Not that it is any worse then the current cannon macro) that costs gas.... Protoss wouldn't have any gas left over, sort of like how zerg get screwed.

BUT!

With this more proper role of the roach, this new unit would actually be more of a macro defending answer to the zergling if protoss chose the forge/fe route...

So if zerg tried to be aggresive with the roach, protoss could still use cannon, but to answer against zerglings, the probe would now either warp in or morph itself in to this new defensive style unit that is good against zerglings, and would be able to push out and expand accordingly.

Now, you might think, add another unit to protoss that is good against the zergling when toss already have zealot + archon?

Yes, because it balances out if the probe morphs in to this unit... it practically sacrifices the probe, but it would have aggressive potential if it was proxy morphed.

But is this too similar to zerg? No way... I believe it is totally legit that there can be familiar functions between races as long as they are kept to a bare minimum...

And guess what? The linear queen production at the hatchery is a PERFECT example of this.

Even in lore you might say that protoss and zerg shared a common ancestor and that is where this inherited genetic function comes from!

Not that it has to be perceived like this, but you get the point....

And now, everything makes sense.... the protoss macro defending direction of forge first actually becomes a viable approach that they don't screw themselves on against zerg...

The best defense is a good offense...

Quick Comments

syfCabracan:

Linear queen production, drink.

[Kyfoid]

I also want to go back and make one more point about the trichotomy

Quality, Quantity, And Ability...

Technically, the more proper term in place of ability is Mode (Alternation) which comes from Kant's trichotomy Quality, Quantity, Modality....

So take the new battle hellion for instance...

We can see its modality for sure, but where is the positional aspect of it?

Should it not be able to transform back and forth between a stationary flame turret that spews out a higher volume of fire? Looses its mobility?

Maybe if they realized that their reasoning was wrong to give the battle hellion mobility, they could keep the battle hellion in the campaign, add the flame turret concept to the campaign as well, and then use this "Flame Turret" as a macro defensive concept for terran.... in multi-player

When in reality, the true unit that should have an area of attack and mobility should come out of the probe, as I pointed out.

[Kyfoid]

Ok, I think I've just had the grand realization to the point I'm trying to make, and it integrates the 2 layer trichotomy concept with the macro defensive concept.

So I'm wondering if the trichotomy concept might only work with the macro defensive methods for each race.

So for example:

If zerg's macro defensive philosophy was "Reactive Quantity" the only unit that this really makes sense with is the zergling.

So let's track back.... let's say that the roach remained the same as an offensive aggressor costing gas...

This would mean that the new protoss unit would have to be good against roaches instead of zerglings.

Zerglings, on the other hand, would probably be produced in quads for 100 minerals, and then slowly lose life off of creep.

The zergling might be viewed as an aggressor, but you might now see it more as a hit and run unit on bases, and a protective unit for zerg on the creep as it fulfills the concept of "Reactive Quantity"

In the mean time, you would aggress with roaches for the most part...

A problem that you might run in to is, let's say that you snuck passed protoss photon cannons with zergling speed, ok, so now your zerglings have so much time before they are going to die? This kinda sucks..

Well, what they could do is place an ability on the zergling so that it could be sacrificed before it dies, returning the minerals that you spent on your zerglings back to you...

Now that idea right there may have WAYYY more potential then Roaches not costing any gas...

And then how about the macro philosophy of the other races?

Terran: Positional Modality

Aggress with hellions, fall back to macro with stationary "Flame Turret" mode....

Simple enough...

Protoss: Aggressive Quality

So this new protoss unit that morphs out of the probe could be of high quality and proxy morphed... more aggressive then photon cannons obviously...

But I think pylon warp in can definitely be used as a macro defensive method already as toss can set up a pylon near an expansion and warp in units.

Anyways, I firmly believe that I have the right direction here, and any fool with enough faith and passion can stumble upon the right direction...

But the specifics? That's not my cup of tea, I would completely leave that up to blizzard because I think that is something for the sharp minded... not my cup of tea.

[TADivinity]

Lol.
10char

[Kyfoid]

I'll tell you what I really think about starcraft and the communities situation...

Honestly, the reason why there is all this flaming hate, whining, sensitivity, war.... is because deep down we know that this game could achieve greatness on a level that we have never seen before.... We feel it... but we hate our feelings because they don't get us any answers, and then these new guys come in that try to express their feelings of the game and we shut them down because we all know the track record of our feelings... they let us down time and time again at getting this game to make sense....

It's just a revolutionary, and when I mean revolutionary, we are just spinning around in circles, but for some reason these revolutions are not bringing us to the goal of evolution....

You Tube

You Tube

Tao Teh Ching 45

"The Master leads
by emptying people's minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know."

1-Corinthians 18-31

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[a]

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”[b]"

[syfMiley]

What are you smoking mate, I want some o dat

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by Kyfoid

Anyways, I firmly believe that I have the right direction here

you don't.

Quick Comments

Kyfoid:

Shouldn't you elaborate on your comment first since it pointed out nothing?

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

you don't.

And yet unfortunately some still have issues that they have to work out with themself, I wish you the best of luck with that.

Quick Comments

|Erasmus|:

care to elaborate?

[mGGAequitas]

don't you have anything better to do than to write pages and pages of garbage?

like go become a politician; that seems to be well suited for you

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by sRAequitas

don't you have anything better to do than to write pages and pages of garbage?

like go become a politician; that seems to be well suited for you

I bet your one of those people who sees garbage and an immediate sign goes off in your head that says "useless" am I right?

[Kyfoid]

At this point, if you believe that dead silence has more meaning then what I am saying, then at least let the current dead silence say one thing.... that you people need to do some serious Soul Searching and take some responsibility as a loyal Blizzard fan and customer by holding Blizzard accountable for these inexcusable short comings... The game could be so much better and so much more then this absurdly self conflicting concept of "Asymmetrical Balance"

Let's get this game worthy of the RTS classification "E-sport"

[Reere]

This needs to be archived.

What if, just what if, we look back after the release of Legacy of the Void and all of this makes sense??~

[Kyfoid]

All I can do his keep hitting you guys to see this from another point of view until hopefully something clicks.....

Look at zerg from broodwar where their macro defensive philosophy consisting of matching marine and zealot forces with sunken colonies.

Now that we have queens in the game, blizzard, in alpha or beta gave the queens this ability called "deep tunnel" to practically go in to "Underground Teleport God Mode" so that zerg could direct their new defensive unit toward the hatchery that was being attacked...

This gave zerg an element of a defensive macro philosophy... but not a complete and balanced one.

Why was this removed?

Clearly it was totally unrealistic and seemed like superior advanced technology that protoss would have, for one.

Second, like I said, it was not complete and balanced and so therefore unnecessary....

Zerg can just macro aggression/defend with roaches....

But... what if we decided to keep the sunken colony as zerg's macro defending approach, just like it was in broodwar? As it has turned in to the spine crawler and has mobility now, maybe it can work...

Well, it could possibly work, we might not have to change any of the units around as they currently are, but what we would need to do is basically change the spinecrawler to function like the lurker from broodwar. This rooting delay would have to be removed... COMPLETELY, because the spinecrawler would now be perceived as zerg's macro defending method that can hold its own against warrior forces in mobile battles.

It would be a great way to bring back something that has a lurkerish feel.

The main issue would be its travel method getting from base to base....

Going back to the concept of zerglings losing life off creep.... if the spinecrawler became zerg's macro defending method so that zerg could save more gas, would need to slowly lose life off creep, and instead of overlord creep spew unlocked after lair, would have to be unlocked on tier 1.

Also, it might need to be considered that the overlord would spew creep as it moves along instead of turning off and on, this way zerg could literally push with spinecrawler and overlord to block a new path where zerg would be able to set up a new base.

But it seems that the big hole with this problem occurs when zerg hits lair and gets overlord speed, suddenly zerg would have this mobile combat force that would be entirely mobile and consist of defensive buildings...

This is a problem...

So, it seems that they would have to change the method that zerg spreads the creep, I would propose that spinecrawlers would have the ability to spread creep, but only when they are uprooted... so you would have to keep crawling to the edge of the creep to spread it over to a path, defend it, then expand.

This is familiar to the "Creep Colony" concept from broodwar.

So now the lurker concept is back in the fashion of the spinecrawler...

Sigh.

But now let's say that the opponent gets around those spinecrawlers and starts attacking your constructing hatchery down this particular path?

This would be an opportunity to perhaps trap the opponent down this path by making more spinecrawlers and expand to a new location...

This idea doesn't support my hope for a "reactive quantity" macro defending method for zerg though....

[Kyfoid]

And to add a very critical point...

If the spinecrawler was intended to function as zerg's macro defending philosophy, then this would basically PROVE that there is a big hole in the protoss design when protoss decides to take the "Macro/Forge" approach...

There is absolutely no degree of mobility to the cannon what so ever, zero, nil, none...

That's why it would be completely necessary to add a mobile unit to the protoss side of things...

Would it consist of the probe morphing in to this unit with the freedom to do so anywhere?

Or would it consist of the photon cannon tansforming in to a mobile melee sort of unit that sacrifices its cannon range?

I think transforming the cannon in to a mobile melee defensive style unit at will, and then being able to fight outside of pylon radius is a neat sort of idea, a bit overly familiar to the nightelves in warcraft 3 but hey...

Perhaps that would still be too similar to zerg though?

And maybe it just wouldn't leave an aggresive enough option open to be consider an E-sport...

Then again, imagine epic wars of defensive buildings between zerg and protoss?

Terran has tanks, which pretty much makes this all acceptable right?

Ahh, who am I kidding, why am I wasting my time....

:P

[Kyfoid]

Ok, fine... let me end this with a picture to drive the nail all the way in.

Quick Comments

Fairyking:

Cybercore - Mobile Stalker

[ToR.Arnor]

a Forge is = to a Evo Chamber or a Engineering Bay

they are built to upgrade units are build static defense (Cannons, spore, turrets)

*Building a Tech lab/reactor is not a deviation from tech, unless you plan on dying to anything throughout the game

*Building a Bane Nest or Roach Warren is not a deviation unless you cross your fingers and hope your opponent does attack for 12mins

*forge into cannon is called a cannon rush its a cheese as it is, to give toss a buff to make that cheese stronger will break the game further

I cant believe believe i replied to this, I suck at starcraft, but even I can see your ideas are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off the mark

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by ToR.Arnor

a Forge is = to a Evo Chamber or a Engineering Bay

they are built to upgrade units are build static defense (Cannons, spore, turrets)

*Building a Tech lab/reactor is not a deviation from tech, unless you plan on dying to anything throughout the game

*Building a Bane Nest or Roach Warren is not a deviation unless you cross your fingers and hope your opponent does attack for 12mins

*forge into cannon is called a cannon rush its a cheese as it is, to give toss a buff to make that cheese stronger will break the game further

I cant believe believe i replied to this, I suck at starcraft, but even I can see your ideas are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off the mark

See, I was totally waiting for someone to say this so that I could prove them 100% wrong.

The spawning pool unlocks zerg's offense and defense

The Barrack Unlocks terran's offense and defense

The gateway unlocks protoss' offense, the forge unlocks protoss' defense

Because of this division, it makes the point as plain as day and confirms my point as 100% accurate.

There is a missing Mobile Unit at the forge location and level.

The Tech lab is definitely a deviation when zerg unlocks roaches accross multiple hatcheries with one building

Terran builds individually for each barrack, and even shares the role with reactor.


Btw, your admin friend claims that zerg do not want to get roaches because they are not cost effecient compared to the zergling...

And you might say "Oh but terran must fill their bunker with offense" but that argument is cancelled out because the bunker can be salvaged and moved in to a new location and let's not forget repair"

The truth is, the forge is in a category of its own, not comparable to the evolution chamber or the engineering bay

[ToR.Arnor]

Originally Posted by Kyfoid

See, I was totally waiting for someone to say this so that I could prove them 100% wrong.

The spawning pool unlocks zerg's offense and defense

The Barrack Unlocks terran's offense and defense

The gateway unlocks protoss' offense, the forge unlocks protoss' defense

Because of this division, it makes the point as plain as day and confirms my point as 100% accurate.

There is a missing Mobile Unit at the forge location and level.

zealots arent defensive?

have you tried making them? theyre pretty good on hold position blocking a 1 hex gap.... or kiting if the unit has to be "moving" for you to count it

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by ToR.Arnor

zealots arent defensive?

have you tried making them? theyre pretty good on hold position blocking a 1 hex gap.... or kiting if the unit has to be "moving" for you to count it

Two words...

Shield battery (Gasp)

It seems to me that blizzard took out the shield battery because the gateway was unlocking an overpowered offensive defense for protoss,

What is missing is actually a unit at forge location and level.

Quick Comments

	ROOTPetraeus:	???
	ToR.Arnor:	lol zero relevance to my comment, im bored of you now, bye bye
	UncleTom:	preaching to the choir
	ROCCAT_Savior:	This guy....

[Kyfoid]

Zero Relevance? Are you out of your mind?

I was pointing out that yes, that the zealot did fulfill a defensive role at one time when the shield battery was unlocked by the gateway in broodwar.

It was removed perhaps for a good reason, but it seems that what should have been added has not been realized... overlooked.

Quick Comments

ToR.Arnor:

not looking at bigger picture

[syfCabracan]

I think you should make a youtube show, of you playing ladder games and explaining the short commings of the balance and gameplay design as they come up in game.

[mGGMueX]

You know what this sounds like? It's as if someone gave an English professor a detailed description of Starcraft but no mention of its metagame and didn't let him play the game, then told them to write a book on how to make it better.

Quick Comments

|Erasmus|:

If by 'english professor' you mean someone who can't form coherent sentences.

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by mGGMueX

You know what this sounds like? It's as if someone gave an English professor a detailed description of Starcraft but no mention of its metagame and didn't let him play the game, then told them to write a book on how to make it better.

I have only one point and one question in regard to this statement.

The only legit Zerg Build that I have EVER seen in Starcraft was July Zerg's low economy 2 hatch mutalisk.

With that said, would you possibly clarify for me if I go 2 hatch with quad gas asap with the perfect mineral to gas ratio, is it legit to make a lair first and then make queen + spire at the same time?

It seems that the only window of hope that zerg has is to aggress with mutalisk as freakin early as freakin possible to take advantage of their key strength of being able to parallel spend all of their gas for a one time hail marry shot in the dark at making the game balanced.... but if zerg are forced to defend with a spinecrawler or some zerglings before lair completes, it makes it even that much more ridiculously difficult to pull off.

Strangely enough, the one suggestion that was actually the most accepted on the blizzard forums was that the spire be moved to tier 1.5 unlocked by the queen, and the justification for this change was that the hydralisk den was moved to tier 2 while the spire is actually quite pricey.

If I was trying to balance the game from the point of view that YOU GUYS believe how balance should work... where zerg should always have to get 1 unit for the game to be fair, this is the one and only change that I see possible to correcting this nerdy game of "one way that requires flawless execution".

Does the game really have to be that narrow and dull?

Quick Comments

ToR.Arnor:

lol you dont watch any SCII at ALL if you think thats the only legit build

[TidaL]

4Gate is a legit build!

:P

Quick Comments

Kyfoid:

More legit then forge fe :P

[Fairyking]

I don't know what possessed me to comment... T_T

[Kyfoid]

Let me drive the nail home with a perfect point.

The queen represents a partially defensive stance, and the ability to spend excess minerals on drones/zerglings.

Zerg don't technically need the queen to take advantage of their 1 pop 6 muta agression, and really shouldn't get the queen before layer because that would mess up the critical window of opportunity.. if there is any...

Zerg try to be aggressive with their mass gas spending capability first and foremost, and then retaliate with queen, spine, roach, drone macro.

this is the only real legit zerg play...

[mGGAequitas]

if you have such a thorough understanding of the game how come you are only silver? perhaps there are some things that you don't yet understand. I suggest you just go push that find match button instead of... whatever it is you are trying to do in this thread.

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by sRAequitas

if you have such a thorough understanding of the game how come you are only silver? perhaps there are some things that you don't yet understand. I suggest you just go push that find match button instead of... whatever it is you are trying to do in this thread.

You can look up that I am platinum if you check my profile on battle.net.

You see, I spent most of my stress and strain playing 1v1 with zerg in broodwar, and I said to myself, ok, I'm getting older, I need to enjoy the team games now, so I put all my focus on 2v2 in sc2. Man was I disappointed when I found out how the game was meant for 1v1 which resulted in a very poor 2v2 experience with zerg. I just found myself being bothered to no end.

I never took 1v1 seriously in this game, then again, I never technically played standard 1v1 zerg in broodwar because I rarely ever went this 2 hatch 6 muta build.

Against terran, I would expand and rush queen/overlord speed research, followed up by lurker research. I would typically make 2 queens, but only scout with 1. Then I would make judgement on whether I needed spawn broodling or not.

Some of my most satisfying wins consisted of terrans who would still make tanks, while I would follow up scout queens with lurker drops then pick off tanks with broodling because I would get a jump start on energy saving. It was great.

I think that Saviors 3 hatch muta play against terran deceived everyone off the proper way to play them.

Strangely enough, I found ZvT was easier then ZvP because of this. While the pros seemed to do better against protoss then against terran....

ZvP was a totally different animal for me.... I found the corsair absurdly difficult to deal with without rushing devour. Luckily for my dignity many pros were losing against corsairs multiple times in a row.

I felt like, deep down, Devour, Lurker, and Dark swarm was the first most optimally aggressive goal for zerg with the most potential... but the fact that storm both worked on burrowed units AND the dark swarm with out even a 50% reduction in effectiveness was absolutely retarded, when they should have been properly countering with reavers...

Quick Comments

ToR.Arnor:

You know nothing Jon Snow

[Kyfoid]

@tor.armor's quick reply

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_that_I_know_nothing

"The impreciseness of the paraphrase of this as I know that I know nothing stems from the fact that the author is not saying that he does not know anything but means instead that one cannot know anything with absolute certainty but can feel confident about certain things"

Quick Comments

ToR.Arnor:

wrong quote

[mGGAequitas]

*coughs* http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/525331/Kyfoid/season/7 last season you were silver.. the season before that plat
either way you're not very highly ranked.

Originally Posted by Kyfoid

the game was meant for 1v1

how is the game meant for 1v1? Care to elaborate a bit please?
I play lots of team games, I have lots of fun in them

Originally Posted by Kyfoid

I never took 1v1 seriously in this game

then what the hell gives you the right to judge how 1v1 works and to write pages and pages on how to 'improve' it? Hell, you aren't even ranked this season. If you actually played and were at a half decent skill level then perhaps your opinion would matter more.

+ [random shit about broodwar] +

Originally Posted by Kyfoid

I never technically played standard 1v1 zerg in broodwar because I rarely ever went this 2 hatch 6 muta build.

Against terran, I would expand and rush queen/overlord speed research, followed up by lurker research. I would typically make 2 queens, but only scout with 1. Then I would make judgement on whether I needed spawn broodling or not.

Some of my most satisfying wins consisted of terrans who would still make tanks, while I would follow up scout queens with lurker drops then pick off tanks with broodling because I would get a jump start on energy saving. It was great.

Strangely enough, I found ZvT was easier then ZvP because of this.

ZvP was a totally different animal for me.... I found the corsair absurdly difficult to deal with without rushing devour. Luckily for my dignity many pros were losing against corsairs multiple times in a row.

I felt like, deep down, Devour, Lurker, and Dark swarm was the first most optimally aggressive goal for zerg with the most potential... but the fact that storm both worked on burrowed units AND the dark swarm with out even a 50% reduction in effectiveness was absolutely retarded, when they should have been properly countering with reavers...

what does any of this crap have to do with anything?
if you want to play broodwar then go play broodwar. No one is forcing you to play sc2.

[Kyfoid]

Meh, over 50,000 games of broodwar + sc2.over the years.... my sc2 games pale in comparsion to my broodwar games played, I have a few other accounts though... DaBest, AtlasMeCH.

More games then you've played between both games total and many more fails at trying to play creatively, which is how it goes.

Your comment is quite insulting but I'll let it pass as there isn't much I have to show for it. Starcraft 2 was a joke to break down and understand every viable strat from the get go, after having played broodwar.

Quick Comments

	ToR.Arnor:	50,000 games and still plat/silver level
	syfChadMann:	You'll let it pass - how nice of you. **** off.

[Kyfoid]

Do you guys want me to quickly bump my 1v1 rank to diamond or what?

Quick Comments

ToR.Arnor:

Diamond still isnt good

[Kyfoid]

I don't want to be considered good in a system that lacks intellect...

Quick Comments

	syfChadMann:	Your not good.. nor do you have intellect - if your post are anything to go by.
	ToR.Arnor:	this ^ well You're* but still this ^

[Kyfoid]

"if your post are anything to go by"

"All your base are belong to us"

Quick Comments

syfChadMann:

All your base are go **** yourself mate.

[syfChadMann]

If your not GM or at least Master on Korea.. you shouldn't be bothered to talk about Balance... Your not good enough to express any balance problems..

your silver mate, if you keep losing to broodlords or whatever - its cause your bad.. not because of broodlords.

The end.

Quick Comments

ToR.Arnor:

this ^

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by fray`ChadMann

If your not GM or at least Master on Korea.. you shouldn't be bothered to talk about Balance... Your not good enough to express any balance problems..

your silver mate, if you keep losing to broodlords or whatever - its cause your bad.. not because of broodlords.

The end.

If I shouldn't be bothered to talk about balance then you shouldn't be bothered to read or respond to my posts, unless you feel inferior as they are heralded as good writings by many good players and intellectuals.

The end.

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by Kyfoid

If I shouldn't be bothered to talk about balance then you shouldn't be bothered to read or respond to my posts, unless you feel like the minority as they are heralded as good writings by many good players and intellectuals.

The end.

I didn't read a single page of this thread..

Was just told some random retard was being a dickhead in the forums I enjoy so much..
So if you're going to be a dick head - then please go **** off. That is all I've come here to say.

Coolio?
seeya.

[Zepph]

MOD PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD.

This guy has been trolling on here (got banned under atlasmech) and battle.net in the past with almost the same post. Why this thread has been allowed to last 4 pages is beyond me. Enough.

Quick Comments

	ToR.Arnor:	Because Mods are inactive T_T
	Maynarde:	^ I'm not inactive, I did however find this guy hilarious

[ToR.Arnor]

Originally Posted by Zepph

MOD PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD.

This guy has been trolling on here (got banned under atlasmech) and battle.net in the past with almost the same post. Why this thread has been allowed to last 4 pages is beyond me. Enough.

I said this two pages ago, was told it was fine...

[mGGAequitas]

Originally Posted by Kyfoid

I have a few other accounts though... DaBest, AtlasMeCH.

Both gold. What are you trying to prove with this? That you are willing to pay more money to be bad under multiple names?

Originally Posted by Kyfoid

over 50,000 games

congratulations you must be so proud. However it doesn't change the fact that you have no clue how to play this game nor how it works. The number of games doesn't matter your rank matters a lot more. Having played 50k games and being silver-gold also shows that you don't learn or improve.

Originally Posted by Kyfoid

More games then you've played

again, congratulations on being a lower rank than me with more games played.

Originally Posted by Kyfoid

Your comment is quite insulting

which part of it? I re-read my comment but didn't see anything insulting.

Originally Posted by Kyfoid

Do you guys want me to quickly bump my 1v1 rank to diamond or what?

Go get gm and then I will listen and put some actual consideration into you're ideas. But at the moment you are not qualified to have an opinion on these issues.

[Maynarde]

Ok that'll do.

Also Kyfoid if you post anywhere else don't just make 2 or 3 posts in a row it's actually infractable. There's an edit button for a reason if you need to add thoughts to a post.

Although "thinking" and "posting" is something that's tough to put in a sentence when thinking about this silly thread.

Was fun while it lasted.

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by Kyfoid

I have a few other accounts though... DaBest, AtlasMeCH

AtlasMeCh was banned over a year ago for "trolling" SC2SEA multiple times here, and on multiple sites. It seems after almost a year you are back at it and have not learned a single thing. And you are still silver and writing your Starcraft thesis! You probably spend more time writing then you do playing. I would first suggest spending all that time getting better at the game so have you a decent understanding of it, only then would your words be credible to anyone. And if you had that decent understanding, you probably would not have typed all of that.

Regardless, you are already a permanently banned user and we do not welcome such users on our site, especially when you have showed you have not grown at all over the past year. You are clearly seeking attention by creating provocatively titled threads to incite a reaction just like what you did. I do not know how some people can get off from that, but that is not a behaviour entertained on sc2sea. Please use reddit / bnet as an outlet to express your views instead, you will be more welcomed there.

Thanks

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syfChadMann:

boss.