[SnoWPanda]

Originally Posted by pikk0n

SnoWPanda, did you actually read what I wrote? Are you going to be just as ignorant as dennistoo was? My point is I KNOW how effective infestors are and that it's a pity it took the zerg players (myself included) till after the so-called 'buff' to utilize them properly. My MAIN point was infestors were better before that patch with the extended fungal growth since you wouldn't need as many infestors in your army. You can have a larger number of BANES to kill off the death ball which is stuck for 8 seconds.

Protoss was never OP but there were certain features of protoss that made them seem OP which has been fixed. This is NOT FF but rather the archon toilet and to a lesser extent, khaydarin amulets.

:S I hate retyping what I typed earlier but sometimes, people just read 1 or 2 sentences and post immediately. *sigh*

Yes i do read everything. I just don't want to argue. This is not personal but a general comment.
There are people who theorycraft with a preconcieved bias towards another race. Im sick of this perception of protoss players been cheesy, uncreative people who just rely on "OP" units and never macro or explore the potential of their race. There is no point to arguing with those theory crafters, they will never accept anything other than that which reinforces they biases and just lower the level of the discussion to balance whines.

[pikk0n]

Originally Posted by SnoWPanda

Yes i do read everything. I just don't want to argue. This is not personal but a general comment.
There are people who theorycraft with a preconcieved bias towards another race. Im sick of this perception of protoss players been cheesy, uncreative people who just rely on "OP" units and never macro or explore the potential of their race. There is no point to arguing with those theory crafters, they will never accept anything other than that which reinforces they biases and just lower the level of the discussion to balance whines.

Fair enough but your initial sentence really irked me. I have been part of threads when zerg players were QQing about toss being OP and now this. Never once have I said that protoss is OP. I have always defended both races because I felt back then that FF being OP was just :S and now, it's just again a gut feeling that infestors are not that OP. It pretty much took spanishiwa to force the zerg players to use infestors more and hopefully there will be something for protoss players in the not too distant future. I'm just saying that isn't it too early to make that judgement about zerg being OP and toss UP? I have noticed however nGenLight's slide down the GM ranking which was rather surprising seeing that he was the top player for a really long time. On top of that, zerg players are suddenly moving up the ranks.

As for cheesiness, if you follow the BW scene, the korean players are always cheesy but they have follow-ups. I disagree with cheese haters. Cheese will always be part of the game. MC's game where he cannon 'cheesed' idrA on Tal Darim was really interesting but all that really did was delay the mining. When roaches pop out, the cannons would have been taken care of. It just allowed the toss to get his own expo safely and be not that far behind the zerg economically. However, from those games, it seems that the current way to stop a ling/bling/infestor composition is by forcing the zerg into a different tech path with your phoenixes and voids since zerg has always been a reactionary race.

[nGenLight]

^ I understand what you are trying to say regarding fungal growth being "stronger" before the patch. But I have a feeling 99% of Terran/Protoss and even Zerg would disagree with that sentiment, you are heavily underestimating the DPS(2.6x DPS) of the new fungal growth and how that changes the game. This also means more fungal growth can be used more rapidly with your idle Infestors instead of watching them die to Collosi/Tank fire otherwise.

[pikk0n]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

^ I understand what you are trying to say regarding fungal growth being "stronger" before the patch. But I have a feeling 99% of Terran/Protoss and even Zerg would disagree with that sentiment, you are heavily underestimating the DPS(2.6x DPS) of the new fungal growth and how that changes the game. This also means more fungal growth can be used more rapidly with your idle Infestors instead of watching them die to Collosi/Tank fire otherwise.

Yes. I know what you mean. As terran against THAT new fungal, my army dies so quickly. But it seems that the point being made by dennistoo was mainly about fungal stopping him from microing. Your earlier point about 2 fungals to kill a sentry definitely enlightened me as well as voids dying earlier. But the 2 posters that I am debating with didn't make any mention about fungal being able to kill armoured units quicker now. Seemed more like a QQ about bling/infestors and trying to pick a fight with someone who never said that toss or zerg is UP/OP. :S It's not like they are adding anything to my point like what you had done earlier. I'm pretty much on the fence on this because I play all 3 races.

[SnoWPanda]

i dont QQ about protoss, I "QQ" about the percption of protoss because I am a protoss player. I dont get into pointless debates. People just play the fuken game.

EDIT:
I don’t like balance discussions; they are always subjective to the players understanding of the game and his particular experiences. This makes it almost impossible to have a constructive dialogue, the result will always be a reflection of that players beliefs and will simply reinforces the views of others who have similar experiences.

But when a balance argument ends up as masked attacks on the ability of protoss players. I take that personally. As a protoss player I will defend the honour of protoss players when I see nGenLight the top protoss on this server dismissed so easily in posts that accuse protoss players of uncreativity and “lack of macro”.

I will jump out and comment on balance if only to defend the respect of protoss players.

Quick Comments

nGenLight:

[nGenLight]

^I have to agree with you, the amount of crap Protoss players take for their race having easier mechanics does get rather annoying. Sure it is easy to just 4 gate and take easy wins from inexperienced players, but the learning curve for Protoss at the higher level is incredibly steep. Decision making, preemptive unit placement (to counter Protoss imobility), game knowledge, unit control, chronoboost usage, creative, unpredictable and flexible gameplay etc are not EASY to learn. Also, easier and limited mechanics also means limited potential and things to do - The amount of fun I have offracing as Terran and medivac dropping, actually using my APM for a purpose rather than spamming is so much more satisfying.

Off topic personal view: I would exchange CB for mules in a second at how easily used that mechanic is, Larva inject on the other hand... NO TY =D.

It is nice to get recognition but I do not see myself as "the" top Protoss. My fellow brotoss such as Roz, Indy, Azz, Spidereight, Kowi, (although I have not seen him play), and previously Aaron, Nirvana, Refallen, Cobo, Sheepy, Pinder (Inactives) could all contend for that title easily.

As brotoss, we shall stand together and cheer for the only Protoss left in the GSL to take the trophy just as FD and Nestea did it at low-times for Zerg.

[exoduse22]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

I have to agree with you, the amount of crap Protoss players take for their race having easier mechanics does get rather annoying. Sure it is easy to just 4 gate and take easy wins from inexperienced players, but the learning curve for Protoss at the higher level is incredibly steep. Decision making, preemptive unit placement (to counter Protoss imobility), game knowledge, unit control, chronoboost usage, creative, unpredictable and flexible gameplay etc are not EASY to learn. Also, easier and limited mechanics also means limited potential and things to do.

Yeah I do feel this way

[dennistoo]

SLAYERS ALICIA. Hopefully he can produce new stras against the might zergs.

[SnoWPanda]

Alicia is very good... might need some luck though hahaha lets hope he pull a FD.

[exoduse22]

You guys say that protoss players aren't showing the same level meta game which is why they aren't doing so well, but did you consider possibilities that it isn't easy to meta game compared to zerg and terran?

[TAScarecrow]

Getting sick of hearing how the GSL protosses are simply inferior to their terran counterparts. It's not a matter of better players or lack of protoss innovation. I believe it's simply the more the matchups get mapped out the more it's showing up how one dimensional protoss is. We're falling behind in the metagame not for lack of trying, but for lack of tools. Terran has SO much flexibility, the number of effective unit combinations and builds they have at hand is just staggering and suggests many more yet to be discovered. Zerg is also evolving with the increased use of infestors, banelings and drop play. Protoss just doesn't have the same utility.

Anyone who says toss is struggling atm because of lack of innovation doesn't play them. Warp prisms are shit compared to the drop capabilities of the other races. It's been looked at and it's not terribly effective. Protoss is seriously just as 'explored' as the other races, they simply have less options:

- Protoss is better off staying in a ball because of individually weak units that scale far better when used in conjunction
- Drops are not as good because of this and gateway units kill workers so slowly compared to other races t1
- Prism is slow and often uses crucial robo time
- Our two capital ship units are expensive paper weights.

We're not underpowered as such and we can still win a decent % of games. It's just that our strategies are become predictable and the other races have adapted well. Now it's time for Toss to adapt and we're drawing blanks.

The other thing inhibiting protoss is that collossi are so important in all 3 matchups. Having to either tech to t3 for such a gas intensive unit, 2 base timing all-in or both is very limiting. Nerf collossi by all means or replace it with the reaver; buff prisms and carriers; merge templar and dt tech; make the mothership smaller and call it an arbiter, then you will see much more exploration and innovation from the sons of Aiur. If Blizzard would just allow us more, not necessarily stronger, tools I feel protoss would be just as robust as the other races and the decline Tom's statistics show would be reversed.

[SnoWPanda]

just watched MC vs Idra game 6 at MLG. that game just examplifies how difficult it is for protoss to play a standard game with zerg. MC played a perfect game, just to stay in the game he had to constant harass without losing units, perfect macro/timing to defend zerg push, pressuring while taking care of his army with great forcefields and positioning, and then he just barely managed to win the game because of idra's small mistake of not having detection.

[Monk]

Originally Posted by SnoWPanda

just watched MC vs Idra game 6 at MLG. that game just examplifies how difficult it is for protoss to play a standard game with zerg. MC played a perfect game, just to stay in the game he had to constant harass without losing units, perfect macro/timing to defend zerg push, pressuring while taking care of his army with great forcefields and positioning, and then he just barely managed to win the game because of idra's small mistake of not having detection.

??? You're comparing two top notch professionals doing what they should do. Of course MC micros perfectly, and of course his macro is insane. That's why he is a pro. And it wasn't a small mistake by IdrA, I think it was capitalization by MC. I saw that game as IdrA winning UNTIL the DT's came out solely because MC's Stargate pressure did jack all. So of course IdrA is going to have a lead especially if he expands like nuts knowing that he can defend the stargate units. I just don't think this was a really good example because MC did the same thing to IdrA on meta. So of course IdrA was going to be prepared for it(The stargate stuff)

[dennistoo]

we should look at how fast zerg expand. it gets out of control. it's the DT that won MC the game. obviously early mass sentries will good forcefield doesnt work. it only helps MC to defend the first push but subsequently he has to depends on mass stalkers and good micro to defend idra's push.

IMO, infestor came too late for indra and lack of speedlings cost him the game. If he could use baneling drops tactics, MC could have lost the game. Remember how losira tear MC aparts by constant dropping of banelings on MC mineral line?

[V_enDetta]

If not for TvT, I would have switched from Toss to Terran quite a while ago. Damn.

[nirvAnA]

whoa protoss finished #1 in 5 of the 6 dreamhack groups atm! with the current form or protoss i definitely was not expecting that!

[ShinyA]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

whoa protoss finished #1 in 5 of the 6 dreamhack groups atm! with the current form or protoss i definitely was not expecting that!

I didn't expect so many P to make it to the top 16 but to be honest there were a lot of sub-par players in the group stage. I think everyone expected MC, HuK, White-Ra, and Naniwa to get out of their groups as they are just better than the rest. The only real upset so far would be ThorZain not making it out of his group IMO. The field of P players was a lot better overall than Z and T, I mean you have SaSe and Socke as probably the "weakest" P players as opposed to like the Machine's and PredY's of Z and T.

I'm really happy that there are no mirror matches in the RO16, but I predict now that the lower level players are out of the tournament we'll see the P's drop quick. I'm rooting for HuK though, would be epic to see HuK v IdrA finals haha

[dennistoo]

It seems like the most P player are skipping colo. Most go heavy gateway and uses templar instead.

Mass stalkers seems to be very good.

[pikk0n]

No, Mensa! I want to see IdrA vs MC. Rematch!

The "Are you angry" question. LOL!!!!!!!!! I loved that so much.

Though I suppose Huk and IdrA have had their times too with the hallu and the next game where IdrA told Huk to eff off. That was funny. Also, this other game on Xel Naga where IdrA's BM about toss units not costing anything (sorry what? From a guy with broodlords spawning free masses of broodlings?).

Ooooooo the dilemma.

[Tom]

I don't know whether others have thoughts on this, but it seemed to me Protoss performed very well in Dreamhack.

[DREAMHACK SPOILERS]

HuK was obviously the stand out. I've been going through his PvZ games in particular, and what I love is the "back to basics" approach. Most of the winning games are low tech 3gate expand variations. Eg, game 1 v July 3gate into 5gate pressure into robo stalker/sentry/immortal/obs; game 1 v Moon - fake 3gate into 2gas 4gate etc. The exception is that cross fire game vs Moon, where I think HuK was doing quite well with a standard 3gate expand, but his typical aggressive poking didn't pay off when he was caught badly out of position by mass roach/ling. There's not much you can say about that except that its the risk you take with HuK's style of play.

Where HuK got into trouble is where he did expansion/heavy macro builds on maps like Shakuras. Macro Protoss just doesn't seem terribly viable at the moment, but perhaps this is more than compensated for by strong early game timing attacks.

Game 5 vs Moon was inspired play by HuK. He also got very lucky - scouting the 6pool first meant he could stop probes, which allowed him to get his wall up with barely seconds to spare (does anyone else think Moon actually slightly misjudged the timing on that pylon? It seems like he had just enough time to kill it and get through without losing many lings to the cannon... I guess we'll never know). I still think 6/9pool on 4 player maps is a bit of a lottery - the chances of winning outright or failing epically seem to depend mostly on chance in relation to where you spawn/scout.