[Monk]

Originally Posted by Benji

Its the most recent data which should be used, as the discussion is wether Protoss is UP Now, and not 2 months ago.

The graph of Korean games, that shows 70% ZvP has such a small sample size that it should be taken with a grain of salt. The data linked above not only has a largeer sample size, but is also the most recent. If you want to pick and choose which data to use to suit your arguement however, then its simply a bias discussion.

This. I mentioned in my MLG post that that PlayXP link only had 300 or so people voting on it. Hardly a sample size worth mentioning. The chart however shows that all races are around the same number. I could see you saying Protoss was underpowered IF they were <42% winrate. But 47% is pretty good in my opinion.

@Tom you're sampling Zerg being a low populated race(20%), and protoss(35%) being a higher one. This is a double-bladed sword in your argument as you can say that protoss have a lot more mirrors then zerg do, so it's only natural that the numbers get smaller as the tournaments go on.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Benji

Its the most recent data which should be used, as the discussion is wether Protoss is UP Now, and not 2 months ago.

The graph of Korean games, that shows 70% ZvP has such a small sample size that it should be taken with a grain of salt. The data linked above not only has a largeer sample size, but is also the most recent. If you want to pick and choose which data to use to suit your arguement however, then its simply a bias discussion.

What I'm trying to say is:

- NA GM League Data is current as at 3 June 2011
- EU GM League Data is current as at 3 June 2011
- Korean GM League Data is current as at 3 June 2011
- Previous Korean GSL Data is current as at May
- Korean GSL Super Tournament Data is current as at today
- MLG racial qualification % is current as at today
- NASL racial qualification % is current as at today
- TLPD international tournament win% data is current as at the last few days (not sure exactly when the "cut off" was for the graph).

You seem to be suggesting the TLPD data, which shows "only" a slight underperformance by Protoss, should "trump" all the other data sets. One reason seems to be that it is "current". I would suggest it is no more "current" than the other data sets I have looked at. It is clearly an important data source, but I don't think it is valid to look at it and ignore all the other (current) data sources.

@Ridiculisk: I enjoy talking about these sort of facts and figures in the same way as others like to kick around data/studies proving or disproving things like climate change. Its always hard to work out whether there is a real trend or if we're just imagining things (I often have to debate these sorts of issues in my professional life). I'm personally quite comfortable playing Protoss at the moment, but I find these possible trends interesting. At the same time, it has irked me for a while that Zerg (and even sometimes Terran) have been complaining of being underpowered lately when this really doesn't seem to be justified by the data.

[TAhackdZ]

I don't want to overstep any lines here, since I'm relativly new to the SC scene, but;

I'm pretty damn sure there would have been threads just like this one when BroodWar was in it's infancy.

It's all just a matter of time. Sc2 has only been out for a little while, and players (Pro and noob alike) are still trying to work out all the subtle little things that took BW players 12 years to figure out.

Sure, currently the meta-game suggests that Protoss arn't performing very well, but that will change. Someone will figure out how to steamroll the Zergy forces that are causing so much trouble right now, and the paradigm will shift back the other way.

It's the nature of a strategy game.

Personally, (and Protoss players please don't take any offense to this) if people spent more time actually playing the game and trying to figure out some way around the perceived imbalance, rather than writing about it on forums, then the meta-game would shift even faster.

Quick Comments

:

well said

[crAzerk]

I like that main point Ridiculisk. Also one of the underlying themes I had in mind when writing my article on balance.

However, I'm seeing one comment abit too often, will paraphrase it but it has been repeated many times in different words:

"Protoss players should stop complaining about balance and spend the time to actually play and think of ways to improve their metagame"

Or to put it more succinctly but crudely: "Shut up and stop wasting your time, use it to play more'.

I think this isn't a fair comment to make. I am all for balance discussion, it's good for mental exercise and critical thinking, just that it needs to be done with the correct mindset and framework.
People who make these balance claims obviously love the game, so they love talking about the game as well. Instead of shooting down their balance claims without even assessing them, we should try to understand their perspective (and supply counterarguments if we disagree)
And remember that they are starting these discussions because they love the game like us! (And probably can't play whereever they are, at the moment )

Comments like the one I've quoted seem to just want to shut down the discussion without actually thinking through it. I urge everyone to not keep saying that, but if you disagree, explain why! Not just 'oh nothing's wrong you're just whining'.

[AvPoker]

After winning my 1000th win as zerg a couple of days ago, I decided to switch to protoss. I will update whether protoss is really underpowered in first person. Your welcome.

Quick Comments

Tom:

If you're seriously, that is really awesome man ;p

[crAzerk]

Entirely off-topic, but I'm curious as to what you do Tom
Maybe post here:
http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=1532

lol@ pokerface. Damn i want the kerrigan icon

[nGenLight]

JPMoney: Fair Enough It is hard, and frustrating T_T

Ridiculisk: As mentioned before by posters such as Crazerk, JPMoney and Roz. What you guys are saying is spot on. However this does not stop a little discussion based on hard data.

Tom/Benji: Seems like you guys are inclined to disagree on how to interpret/use the different hard data sets that is available. I am sort of inclined to the notion at how little Protoss are doing well compared to the high numbers of actual Protoss participants in these recent tournaments. I also believe that outlier players such as MC and Naniwa(Only protoss who aren't relying on timing attacks) are really carrying the weight for the Protoss just as FD and Nestea has been back in the darker time for Zerg.

I know I may sound whiney and such, but I have never went into a game feeling like my race was the underdog race, ever. Merely that I don't have the answers better players would have. Watching Naniwa and MC at MLG, I believe the low-time for Protoss won't last too long.

[pikk0n]

On balance, a few months ago, zerg players brought this issue up and back then, the graphs showed a significant imbalance for the zerg players in terms of tournament results. Today, we've got protoss players saying that protoss is UP. Give it a few more months before jumping to the conclusion that protoss is UP because that was what ALL zerg players thought back then about their own race. They have improved their mechanics to the stage that zerg is seen as being OP in ZvPs but this came about after months of frustration when playing against protoss players with the old strategies (no/lack of infestors).

As for the infestor 'buff'. Personally, I really do not see how infestors were 'buffed' against protoss. Fungals are usually used to stop sentries from running away (or stalkers from blinking away) from banes not to kill them so technically, infestors with their 8 second effect time were in fact stronger... That 'buff' just encouraged zerg players to use their infestors more. Perhaps there is a similar unit like this that protoss has which is underused. I thought it was the phoenix but that just made PvT a little more balanced. LOL!

Should protoss be given the Khaydarin amulet back? The mothership vortex 'nerf' (or rather a fix of the bug) is really what brought the playing field back even for the PvZ matchups.

[dennistoo]

Originally Posted by pikk0n

As for the infestor 'buff'. Personally, I really do not see how infestors were 'buffed' against protoss. Fungals are usually used to stop sentries from running away (or stalkers from blinking away)

DUDE, you sure infestor BUFF doesn't impact the currently PvZ? Good casted fungal doesnt just STOP sentries or stalkers, it doest stop colo from micro-ing away with massive banelings drops to crash it.

The reproducing of higher tier units like colo take mins as per compared to zerg reproduction if you have lots of larvas saved up.

[pikk0n]

Originally Posted by dennistoo

DUDE, you sure infestor BUFF doesn't impact the currently PvZ? Good casted fungal doesnt just STOP sentries or stalkers, it doest stop colo from micro-ing away with massive banelings drops to crash it.

The reproducing of higher tier units like colo take mins as per compared to zerg reproduction if you have lots of larvas saved up.

Dude... Read on... It's obvious that you stopped reading after seeing that 2 sentences. What did I say AFTER that. FG USED to be 8 seconds. 4 secs compared to 8 secs. Now WHICH one is harder to micro away from? Which FG will make your army more susceptible to bane drops?

[nGenLight]

Infestor buff gave Zerg a legitimate midgame option to deal with the "Deathball". It also completely shuts down the previously undefeatable Voidray/Collosi mix Protoss used to use. The newer infestors has definitely taken away many timings/options/unit mixes that Protoss used to exploit. (Which was incredibly hard for Zerg to deal with)

I believe it was moreso when Zerg players realised how to abuse their mobile/cheap units against the immobile Protoss army which cannot be split up, that PvZ balance started going the other way. Previously Zerg just rushed to 200/200, sat infront of their bases then waited for a Protoss "deathball" to come crush them.

[pikk0n]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

Infestor buff gave Zerg a legitimate midgame option to deal with the "Deathball". It also completely shuts down the previously undefeatable Voidray/Collosi mix Protoss used to use. The newer infestors has definitely taken away many timings/options/unit mixes that Protoss used to exploit. (Which was incredibly hard for Zerg to deal with).

So the newer infestors deal more dmg to the voids. Is that why the fungals are better now as compared to the previous fungal where a unit was held down for 8 seconds but barely damaged by the spell? Just wondering since it'll help me a lot in my ZvP matchups.

[Tom]

To those pointing to the fact that Zerg was previously underpowered but has improved its results over time (and Protoss likewise needs to learn to adapt), I would point out that there have been several patches over that time that have been kind to Zerg (and not so kind to Protoss). I'm not saying that there hasn't also been some "learning" by Zerg - undoubtedly there has. But I think patching has also played some role.

If data becomes available that strongly suggests Protoss are underperforming, I don't see why Blizzard should not consider balance changes. They have made so many balance changes already based on trends that developed over small periods of time (arguably smaller than what we are currently seeing with Protoss).

[nGenLight]

Fungal Growth
Stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds.
Damage increased by +30% vs. armored units.

This means that Fungal Growth DPS has increased from 100% to 200% per second as opposed to before against non armoured units (Sentries die to 2 casts of fungal, which takes about 8 seconds, as opposed to 16 seconds prepatch). Against armoured units like Void Ray/Stalkers/Collosi, the DPS has increased to 260% dps (because of the +30% against armoured bonus) as opposed to the patch before this. Combined with a few baneling drops, a Protoss player that doesn't have good unit control will just instant lose his entire deathball.

[psygoh]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

Fungal Growth
Stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds.
Damage increased by +30% vs. armored units.

Just to add on, stun duration decrease also means that Zerg players can now cast FG one after another much quicker. It is possible to kill off a Protoss ball just by casting multiple FG with infestors alone

[NvJazBas]

@Monk

When I saw your opinions vs Light's I kind of was on Light's side. NOT because I'm in same clan with him, but from a neutral 3rd person's view your knowledge of game compared to his looks very weak just by looking at your replys to Light (For example, you saying 20 medivacs cost "a little more" than 20 overloads. Overloads is a "supply" unit where we HAVE to make them to get our supplies up unlike medivac which is just a form of unit that is not a MUST to get your supplies up therefore getting 20 medivacs will take you MUCH longer than 20 overloads and 100gas per unit is ALOT of difference). I can't see in any where where Light "whines". Light was asked a question by Benji and he answered it in a sentence that I can't really remember word for word but something like "I don't think Zerg is OP with anything but just the metagame at the moment favours zerg and if HE HAVE TO nerf something maybe ventral sacs". This should be very different to what he said exactly but something like this. I don't want to sound rude to you but I think I have to be rude to be honest with you. Please don't talk about balance when you don't know much about. Some people, (moletrap..) think they know alot about balance although they are not a very good player. This can be true, but hardly not many people are. And in most of the cases, the "better" player knows more about the game than the player who just watches mostly or is just a worse player.

Personally, I don't think Protoss is UP as becasue I can't find any certain unit or strategy that is just too "unfair" (hard to stop even with scouting, not much sacrifice required by the one who is doing it. Or skill) by zerg. I think the only strategy that is broken is the 11/11rax scv marine cheese but this is off topic. Protoss just needs a metagame shift I think. Yes they are not having a great time these days but they are certainly not UP. If I have to say it, I'd say, Protoss is UP "now" but not forever possibly even without any balance patch.

[aLtNinja]

When i see threads like these i feel like they should have a reason other than results that may or may not be skewed by individual player skill, sample numbers or selection. Like the recent starwars tournament that enjoyed a top 4 protoss finish. What is it that is so overpowered about the other races that protoss can't deal with? I feel like in zvp especially protoss have not had enough time to learn to deal with all the new zerg styles that have been used recently.

[Benji]

Whilst there have been mentions of the Super Tournament, I want to note that even though its still halfway through the Ro16, we already know that we will have a TvX Finals, and 4/8 of the players still alive in the other side of the bracket are Terrans...

[SnoWPanda]

pikkon have you actually tried infestor bling vs protoss??? man.... im out of this thread, its pointless.

Last comment:

Protoss is not OP. If you lose, YOU LOSE.

[pikk0n]

Originally Posted by SnoWPanda

pikkon have you actually tried infestor bling vs protoss??? man.... im out of this thread, its pointless.

Last comment:

Protoss is not OP. If you lose, YOU LOSE.

SnoWPanda, did you actually read what I wrote? Are you going to be just as ignorant as dennistoo was? My point is I KNOW how effective infestors are and that it's a pity it took the zerg players (myself included) till after the so-called 'buff' to utilize them properly. My MAIN point was infestors were better before that patch with the extended fungal growth since you wouldn't need as many infestors in your army. You can have a larger number of BANES to kill off the death ball which is stuck for 8 seconds.

Protoss was never OP but there were certain features of protoss that made them seem OP which has been fixed. This is NOT FF but rather the archon toilet and to a lesser extent, khaydarin amulets.

:S I hate retyping what I typed earlier but sometimes, people just read 1 or 2 sentences and post immediately. *sigh*