[Paroxysm]

Originally Posted by FaDeKerrigan

Hey Para, any chance you have the links for your claims on SC increasing brainpower/intellect? Would love to read up on it.

Originally Posted by crAzerk

I'm also interested in these studies Paro

Also would be too strong to say 'proven', nothing is ever proven (besides mathematics).

Just to both of you guys, I cant remember where I read the thread, however I believe it was on TeamLiquid during the earlier months of 2011. Of course I could be entirely wrong.

Also, personally I noticed that from playing Starcraft 2 since its release (I was in year 11), my grades improved from high C's and low B's to High B's and Low A's consistently throughout all 7 of my subjects. This led me to get a good final result and allowed me to get accepted into a dual Bachelor of Laws/Bachelor of Arts (Psychology). It must be noted that no extra effort was put in, in fact less effort was put in to my Year 12 assignments, and my marks were higher. I did nothing in class except browse teamliquid and sc2sea (no forum blocks at school, WOOP!) and play tetris or minecraft all day. Again, I did not study at all because I was too busy playing StarCraft when I was at home. However when it came to writing assignments and sitting tests, I thought about all the processes far more in depth than I did before I started playing StarCraft. You guys could say that it is all coincidental, however I think that this game helped to 'train' my brain into a certain form of logical thinking.

[Rockstar]

I wouldn't want my kid playing computer games at school...

[KAshadowz]

I support this idea however I do not believe that it should take place of any of the actual education time.
Currently at my school (Melbourne High School) I am running a starcraft club at school which can be accepted as an official part of my school's co-curricular system if it runs for another 1-2 years to show that it is a capable of surviving long term.
I have also attempted to run an High School Starcraft 2 league but I only managed to receive interest from 3-4 schools as it's quite hard to get the news out to the high school starcraft communities.

[dKiWi]

An extra curricular activity does not need to confer big improvements, or even optimal improvements, in a student partaking it. This is a flawed perception that is relegated to activities that are currently suffering stigma as dictated by the current state of social norms. Why the heck does starcraft 2 have to provide both improvement in mental as well as PHYSICAL well being? That doesn't make sense at all. Especially when alot of the extra curricular activities in many schools pretty much are not providing optimal improvements to a student taking part in it e.g. Malay dance, Journalism, library, tea ceremony and other similar B.S.

[FvRsolis]

The way I see it is that I got days off school to do class performances, musicals and productions. Athletes got whatever they wanted and were forced to train by taking days of school as well. Education is in part the curriculum but mostly it is the environment. If you had something like this in a school, naturally you'd create some interest amongst the 'gamers', most of which (at my school at least) were under-achievers, because they were shunned for playing games and took days off to play. If you gave them some incentive to compete in their local area, you'd give them a reason to come to school. If you blackmailed them with good grades, you would get them to try harder academically.

Basically what I'm saying is that learning to me only happened when I was comfortable, happy and motivated. Having an eSport at my school would have probably prevented me wagging the entirety of junior school sport (a part from when Rugby Union was offered). If I didn't discover a passion for the performing arts? I probably would've been one of those miserable people doing the Suicide 6 and hating my life. I imagine it works like that for everyone.

Quick Comments

breadfan:

[iRLpuku]

imagine you are a parent and you see your child on the computer the whole day playing sc2. and u question him. he replies. "Hey dad, im just doing my CCA homework." and carries on for the next few hours.

end result, his school results are gg-ed.

yes you might think. it happens in other CCAs too. but one must take into consideration how highly addictive computer games can be and because of that children will have a hard time balancing their priorities since now they have a VALID excuse to play the computer. But i do highly suggest a CCA of this type in a higher education level kind of environment. That's because the kids become more mature and hopefully able to get their priorities right and to balance training for competitions and their school work.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by iRLpuku

imagine you are a parent and you see your child on the computer the whole day playing sc2. and u question him. he replies. "Hey dad, im just doing my CCA homework." and carries on for the next few hours.

end result, his school results are gg-ed.

yes you might think. it happens in other CCAs too. but one must take into consideration how highly addictive computer games can be and because of that children will have a hard time balancing their priorities since now they have a VALID excuse to play the computer. But i do highly suggest a CCA of this type in a higher education level kind of environment. That's because the kids become more mature and hopefully able to get their priorities right and to balance training for competitions and their school work.

that can happen whether it's in the classroom or not. At least having a supervisor means their playing time gets some structure and supervision. Your example is basically a kid lying to their parents. When I was 12, I told them I was going homework when I was chatting on MSN messenger instead.

[Maynarde]

Chess clubs exist in School. As do Debate clubs. So I guess it boils down to;

Do you want to be play SC2 or be a master-debater?

In all seriousness I can't see why this can't exist as a legitimate co-curricular activity / club. Not socially acceptable? Not practical? Maybe. Neither's chess. It's 2012 guys, the world is changing and I believe in the possibilities of representing your school one day via eSport.

[Paroxysm]

Originally Posted by Maynarde

Chess clubs exist in School. As do Debate clubs. So I guess it boils down to;

Do you want to be play SC2 or be a master-debater?

Let's be honest, the majority of teen males going through school are already master debaters

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	Ninja joke :D
	Synizta:

[iRLpuku]

Originally Posted by breadfan

that can happen whether it's in the classroom or not. At least having a supervisor means their playing time gets some structure and supervision. Your example is basically a kid lying to their parents. When I was 12, I told them I was going homework when I was chatting on MSN messenger instead.

i think u got me wrong there. haha.. u telling your parents that you are doing homework is lying. but in the scenario i put there, in no way is the kid lying. BECAUSE he is indeed doing his CCA homework. and u cant fault him for that.

[dKiWi]

parents can always complain to the teacher in charge of the activity if they think their kids are playing excessively. then the kid will get owned by the teacher for lying

[Bash]

Its totally plausible, but it will always boil down to how much effort you're willing to put into getting a club to happen and how enthusiastic your group is.

i was in all sorts of "not socially-acceptable" clubs through high school (BHS Debating and Energy breakthrough reppin' yo)
Dont expect it to count towards your marks or anything, but if you enjoy it and you're willing to put the effort in then it can totally happen, just make sure that its run like a real school club and you have a clear goal and ways to get there. ^_^

[crAzerk]

@Paroxysm

+ [mambo jumbo about research methods that I just enjoyed typing you dont have to read] +

I love what Baka points out about the confounding variable, in case you missed it:

The issue with taking statistics result from University SC2 clubs is that you're taking the results from a sample that already have high intellectual capability. Furthermore, there may be an existing correlation between people who play sc2 and their intellectual capability since sc2 require a high level of computational ability and skills, and people who don't have that don't make the cut would very likely to have left the sc2 scene. The best way to actually find out if there is an actual effect is to have a longitudinal study involving random sampling with two groups of people, one playing sc2 and one not, and see the results after several months.

Though I don't see how the 'best way' will give you any results - you're assuming there's no ceiling effect in 'increase in intellectual capacity'.


And directly at what you said, Parox, I myself have played games since my 'O' levels (Singapore's major exam for 16-year-olds) and have done reasonably well. But correlation (good results correlating with playing sc2) does not imply causation - you can't claim that 'SC2 improves intellectual capability' just because of this correlation.

The only way that I can see for this to be tested accurately is to have a group of people, pair them up matching them for intellectual capabilities, then random assign one to SC2 condition (learn and play SC2 ) and the other to non-SC2 condition.
Still, many other extraneous variables is bound to creep in so ... GAH. Complicated.

Do tell if the article resurfaces

[Paroxysm]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

@Paroxysm

+ [mambo jumbo about research methods that I just enjoyed typing you dont have to read] +

I love what Baka points out about the confounding variable, in case you missed it:


Though I don't see how the 'best way' will give you any results - you're assuming there's no ceiling effect in 'increase in intellectual capacity'.


And directly at what you said, Parox, I myself have played games since my 'O' levels (Singapore's major exam for 16-year-olds) and have done reasonably well. But correlation (good results correlating with playing sc2) does not imply causation - you can't claim that 'SC2 improves intellectual capability' just because of this correlation.

The only way that I can see for this to be tested accurately is to have a group of people, pair them up matching them for intellectual capabilities, then random assign one to SC2 condition (learn and play SC2 ) and the other to non-SC2 condition.
Still, many other extraneous variables is bound to creep in so ... GAH. Complicated.

Do tell if the article resurfaces

As with anything, there will certainly be a skill ceiling that will vary between every participant in any tests, with all results then being inconclusive. Thus, I think it is plausible to take from personal situations and come to conclusion based on playing time, skill level, grades across all subjects prior to StarCraft 2 gaming, and then finally, grades across all subjects after StarCraft 2 gaming. Again, the results would vary largely between all participants, as different effects will be seen across the board.

Out of curiosity though, did you grades improve or remain constant after playing SC2 at a masters level?

If i do happen to see that thread (it may not have even been on TL - Rookie error on my part ) I will be sure to link it here!

[PulseSPR]

totally support SC2 as an E-CA but i guarantee 100% that korean parents will never allow their kids to get into gaming after school activity

[MrHobo]

While this is a nice idea, this would never become more than an idea in the US. People are way too closed minded. On top of that, I doubt any parent would buy into having their kid stay after school to play videogames. To change or implement new extracurricular activities, you basically have to change the opinions of the society they're in. And eSports is not big enough right now to make that change.

[Kepler]

This would more likely take off in the USA, they simply have more people, a better internet infrastructure and e-sports is much more popular there.

I would much prefer that kids were taught science, maths and critical thinking better than a video game, as complex as it is. You can argue that Starcraft teaches you some essential skills but it's hardly something I'd use a primary source, but as an extra-curricular activity there's nothing wrong with it, I would just play UT2004 with friends in after-school computer classes anyway.

[dKiWi]

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...pertise-video/

tl;dr: Chess doesn't teach transferable skills but SC2 does.

But hey, people don't really use science or logic to make majority of their decisions anyway. I could prop up scientific evidence about why a lot of social processes are not optimal, but not many would care.

The way I see it, an after school activity has to possess the perceptual quality that the students taking part of them are suffering (i.e. going through shit) somewhat to be legitimate, need it teach actual transferable skills or not. That's pretty damn annoying imo

[faithHunter]

Originally Posted by HoHVenom

We all know that in high school they have sports like football rugby golf chess and all that.
Why not E-sports!
Today i emailed AIC (Sports for colleges in Brisbane) With the question about E-sports within the colleges.
I want to know what everyone's oppion is on Starcraft As a sport within the schools.

Starcraft has been called the chess of this generation. Numerous articles support this.
So i want to get some support with this. so I can Starcraft as a sport within our school.

Thanks guys,

It would be great, as long as:

1. They have the proper facilities to support it. And by PROPER I mean enough mid-high end computers that can handle a decent framerate in 200/200 late game battles.

2. There are sufficient amount of SCII players who are still in college or students that are willing to try out the game at least. This is a problem, since the e-sport influence in Aussie isn't as big as in Korea, that means there will be little to none volunteers in each college. Chances are there will be only like 4 players/college in Australia, and that's being generous.

3. It doesn't have a major influence on academic endeavors. This one will least likely happen, so I wouldn't consider it as a major problem.

4. There are monthly Starcraft tourneys between colleges. That means we might need someone to sponsor the tourneys. TtEsport and SC2SEA maybe?

Other than that, I don't see a reason why shouldn't we add E-Sports within colleges in Australia. If they did, I would be willing to move to Australia from Indonesia (In case my parents agree ;P) The SCII community in this country is unfortunately quite small, there are only like 2 GMs from Indonesia, and there are barely active Indonesian SC2SEA.com users (aside from myself I guess).

[FvRsolis]

Originally Posted by neozxa

It would be great, as long as:

1. They have the proper facilities to support it. And by PROPER I mean enough mid-high end computers that can handle a decent framerate in 200/200 late game battles.

2. There are sufficient amount of SCII players who are still in college or students that are willing to try out the game at least. This is a problem, since the e-sport influence in Aussie isn't as big as in Korea, that means there will be little to none volunteers in each college. Chances are there will be only like 4 players/college in Australia, and that's being generous.

3. It doesn't have a major influence on academic endeavors. This one will least likely happen, so I wouldn't consider it as a major problem.

4. There are monthly Starcraft tourneys between colleges. That means we might need someone to sponsor the tourneys. TtEsport and SC2SEA maybe?

Other than that, I don't see a reason why shouldn't we add E-Sports within colleges in Australia. If they did, I would be willing to move to Australia from Indonesia (In case my parents agree ;P) The SCII community in this country is unfortunately quite small, there are only like 2 GMs from Indonesia, and there are barely active Indonesian SC2SEA.com users (aside from myself I guess).

Uh, most major universities in Australia have a starcraft 2 society that is quite large. For instance UQSS has around ~300 members. Not all of them are 'hardcore' and they probably balance out to around 70~ active people in a local community.

Frame-rate issues on PCs I see as a huge issue, however most schools (even public) in Australia now have at least one room with high-end PCs to accommodate software engineers/programmers/designers/art and media times.

You'd be surprised at how many people are interested in eSports. It isn't as big as Korea, but then again no where per capita (apart from perhaps Sweden) can really rival Korea in it's interest in online gaming.

You worry about sponsors but forget that there are joining fees and club allowances at each and every university, which means that there can be funding from that club put towards a collective prize pool for an inter-campus competition. You have to spend money to make money and you can't approach sponsors without any evidence of profit to be made FOR them by putting money into this event.

(I.e. Fraglabs is now common amongst sc2 communities and the first suggestion when someone asks for a gaming laptop).

The problem always lies with academic achievement and whether or not sc2 hinders or increases the liklihood of getting better grades. I'd like to say it does both, but in reality it probably does the former. Just like someone who spends more time rehearsing or training... someone who spends more time playing will eventually notice a decline in their grades. You can't actually get good marks if you don't understand the subject material. Period. Starcraft 2 can help you develop an approach to learning that subject material, like Acting can help you with public speaking and rhetoric.. or sport can help you with fitness and increased amounts of energy. As I've said before the solution is to force them to get 'good' grades to participate within the leagues. i.e. A GPA of 4 cannot participate in this tournament, you must be 5 and above, or something to that effect.