[Peleus]

Seriously Chobo, can you please start addressing specific points raised by numerous people in the thread? So far they have been one line comments about games not addressing anything or other vague remarks. Especially considering you were going to "respond to everyone".

I know for sure if someone accused me of hacking I'd have my entire season's worth of replays uploaded and answering specific points anyone raised as soon as humanly possible.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	syfPhoenix:

[TAXanT]

Originally Posted by Peleus

Seriously Chobo, can you please start addressing specific points raised by numerous people in the thread? So far they have been one line comments about games not addressing anything or other vague remarks. Especially considering you were going to "respond to everyone".

I know for sure if someone accused me of hacking I'd have my entire season's worth of replays uploaded and answering specific points anyone raised as soon as humanly possible.

What i pretty much wanted to say, Rossi & Mafia have clearly spent a decent amount of time going over these replays to help build their evidence of your suspicious 'playing style'. The least you can do is explain your side of the story which you have not yet done, you've just been picking out irrelevant posts in the topic and given far from reasonable answers.

You're being accused of hacking. You've obviously spent a shitload of time playing this game given your GM status. I just can't comprehend why you aren't agressively defending yourself if all these accusations have no weight behind them.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	mGGDaedalus:
	Champi:

[Sedz]

I disagree with everyone saying he should be 'aggressively' defending himself. If you know you didn't hack, and everyone was accusing you of hacking because you had just won something, because I'm pretty sure no one has ever made this much of a fuss about CHobo before hand, any smart person would just ignore them, hell, they were even talking about this on SotG. Why the hell would you respond when all it's going to do is put more fuel into the fire and more reasons for people to accuse you?

Anyways, everyone in this thread bar Mafia really has no right to accuse CHobo, most of you guys are probably just upset because he has beaten you in the past, you guys really shouldn't be talking at all with emotions clouding your judgement.

I decided to have a look at the Shakuras replay and give my thoughts.

6:12 sees 2 spines and 2 queens, pulls back everything

we had a discussion with terrans and zergs, if you see 2 spines and 2 queens you still commit cause this usually means the zerg has no units, and 20 scvs 14 marines kills queens without energy and spines really fast. At this point Mafia was pumping out lings and had speed almost finished. Chobo did not see the lings.

This is probably the most suspicious piece of evidence anyone has presented. Yeah, it was a ridiculous move to pull back, but let's analyse what could have been going through his mind. You pretty much have 3 options in the situation;

1) Attack with the 8 marines and SCV you have directly there. He'd probably lose the majority of his marines, which makes the all-in void anyways
2) He waits for his scv's to catch up, probably another 5-6 seconds, at this point he can assume Mafia could have banelings or speed lings or more units to defend
3) He pulls back, extremely behind, but still in the game.

Even at around 5:30 when his camera flicks to mafia's base as the baneling nest is building, the camera stops at the un-taken gas, the bane nest is hardly in view, surely the hack would centre on the building?

7:05 kinda suspect that he keeps calm and and doesnt raise his supply depots when the ling counter attack is coming. Imo, he knows exactly how many lings are coming. He even keeps one of his raxes lifted, when in reality a ton of lings and banelings could be coming and that would mean game over.


Probably the most baseless accusation in this thread. He doesn't even scout the attack coming, the lings run in before his rax has a chance to land, and his depots are down to allow movement of his scv to build the CC on the low ground. What you are saying here is, oh, he knows the amount of lings because he hacks and wants to kill them, when in reality, he hasn't scouted anything, has barracks about to land and completely wall off, therefore there is no need to keep his depots up.


11:50 takes the 6o clock expand, cause he knows that mafia is making infestors, chobo has 2 engineering bays but no turrets, still havent scanned or scouted mafias base.

Nothing really to say here, while this does look suss, it can also be pinned down to CHobo taking a huge risk, which he is extremely fond of. You can't really deny this isn't down a fuckton in all sorts of games when someone is behind and wants to take a risk. This could also be put down to CHobo playing Mafia a bunch and knowing his play style, which I know for a fact he has, because he sends me his replays because I really like to analyse mafia's play style and learn some tips, so he could have assumed no mutas.

12:50 lifts up his wall, makes reactors, and takes the 4th. He has no idea what Mafia is doing ( this is also the timing where a ling bling muta attack would happen) , chobo has no tanks and is sitting calm with his marines.

Not really seeing how this is any indication here, a lot of terrans do this, he has tanks coming out as he is going to secure that base, at worse the zerg attacks and makes him lift that base, he still has a third up and running, he has medivacs coming out too and upgrades finishing.

14:00 Was gonna send 2 drop ships to mafias main,but knows that mafia has that covered with overlords, he sends them to mafias 5th that was about to be made, he sends the drop so mafias overlord doesnt see it.

Yeah, while this does look suss, once again we can just pin this down to a change of mind decision, maybe he wants to deny/scout for that fifth? As the previous person mentions, if he did hack, he would see the ovie and the ling on patrol.

15:10 mafias great spire is building, chobo ( still has no map vision or knows what mafia is doing) scans mafias main, and then his natural. Right after he drops 3 starports. Imo he does this so it doesnt look suspect.

He scans around 15:10, which most terrans would agree is a good timing. And then he responds once he sees the tech. This is one of those stupid accusations again.

16:45 stims a bunch of units to avoid mafia burrowing his ling at the 5th base. Makes a turret too to avoid burrowed infestors.

He sees the ling kill his scv, how is there anything wrong with this?

18:20 hits the money scan right on top of all of mafias unit and spines(3rd time he scanned this game)[/COLOR]

He scans in a generic spot where zergs almost always keep their army when not advancing, he also has vision and sees nothing, once again, nothing wrong here.

19:10 chobo has a sensor tower, mafia backs, chobo follows the units in the fog, moves the vikings to kill the broods and then scans. (thats not how its supposed to be done)


He knows broods are there because he sees them in sensor range, they are the slowest moving units, easy to distinguish, so he sends vikings after them, then scans to make sure he doesn't get caught by festors.

from 19:30 – 20:30 he has no map control even though he could easily claim it with marines (in theory) then he drops two scans sees everything.

Another one of those, he does this to throw us off his trail. He has hardly any army and has a sensor tower there to see if the army is coming, he also knows that it's infested with creep there, why risk moving his army forward when there's creep everywhere when he can sit where it is, build it up a bit more while still defending the majority of his bases.


21:20 repositions his units when mafia is moving out, doesnt spread his units at all even though there are red dots on the mini map from the sensor towers ( I would be ******* afraid of the infestors)

As someone mentioned, he is macro'ing previously to this, and sieges up as soon as he sees the lings popping out on the edge of the FoW.

25:00 hits money scan[/COLOR]

Sees the army in the sensor tower, and scans to see what Mafia has.

[Rage]

Here's my replays vs Chobo from mid January

http://drop.sc/191786


http://drop.sc/191785

[CHoBo(kice)]

I just try and keep up with the newer stuff posted. It is quite hard to keep up with that let alone go back to the older posts.

[Peleus]

Well I'd start with this - http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=664

Because imo it's the most damning piece of evidence against you.

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by SQL.delete

7:40 - 7:42 : Looks at Enderr's base through fog of war, see's the gas, but moves his camera up more to make sure he saw everything.
He was just looking at the base, maybe he didn't notice there was gas when he was microing his marines but saw it on the minimap. Decides to look to confirm that the gas is taken. Also, isn't this contradictory to the "camera lock" thing?

I just want to highlight this. this is HUGE. how did people miss that? aren't hacks known to have that specific camera lock feature whenever you look through the fog of war? and that directly contradicts all the "dead time" where the "camera locks" and he does nothing?

map hackers CANNOT look through fog of war, it screen locks

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	it's not huge and it's only one instance, so it is 'inconclusive' like a lot of the other evidence is said to be
	Zealo:	seems kinda desperate to be accusing him of screen locks and looking into the fog

[TABiggun]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

I just want to highlight this. this is HUGE. how did people miss that? aren't hacks known to have that specific camera lock feature whenever you look through the fog of war? and that directly contradicts all the "dead time" where the "camera locks" and he does nothing?

When me or Rossi talk about the 'random pauses' this is what we are talking about. I have said in many posts that there are random pauses. This is not new news, but hopefully people will notice this now because I have been talking about this since the beginning and noone seems to notice it.

Here is a quote of part of what I originally posted:

Originally Posted by TABiggun

I would just like to quote a paragraph from the recent Spades thread because it is very relevent.

Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=342248

Before starting... for those of you who don't know, the latest maphacks on the internet block your camera on the last place visited when u are looking at some place u haven't got ANY kind of vision on, so that if people watch the replays they don't find it so evident that you are hacking. Camera block situations should be taken as moments where the camera is COMPLETELY frozen but no action is being made, they are easy to spot because most progamers are constantly moving around with the mouse, and almost never leave their camera at the exact same spot, if they do, it's just for about 1-2 seconds.


This is exactly what is happening throughout Chobo's games. It is clearly evident in the Mafia vs Chobo game on shakuras. Chobo looks into the main and then just randomly pauses for a moment with no actions at 5:30 as a baneling nest is being constructed and I also noted this was happening throughout many of the replays; a random pause with no actions. In sc2gears i looked throughout that time at his actions and there was no right click with his scvs on the mineral patches or anything, just a random look into the main and then natural.

[CHoBo(kice)]

7:03 - 7:04 : Looks at Bunker ready to salvage and leaves before queens even get there to attack.
I thought I had already salvaged it and this was just pure coincidence.

7:40 - 7:42 : Looks at Enderr's base through fog of war, see's the gas, but moves his camera up more
I wanted to confirm his gases and if he had a bane nest. Sometimes when your attacking you do not catch all the information because your too busy focusing on the attack itself. the place where i scrolled up is a common position for a bane nest.

9:55 - 9:56 : Sends rally point from Starport(Viking in production) straight to the overlord on the right hand side of his base,

I know this is a common positioning for a OL

9:57 - 9:58 : Realises that theres another overlord at the bottom left of his base which is closer and would scout his 3rd command centre plus tech so changes his rally to kill that one instead.

I changed my mind because I was hoping to do a drop this using this path at a later stage. common ol pathihing.

10:42 - 10:47 : Rally point of Viking goes directly aimed through 4 overlords on the map.
if he was maphacking, wouldn't he go for the one on the right of his base, as it's closer?

These are common locations for pathing for drops... overlord placement is common by good players in these locations, this pathing also avoids any queens etc.

11:28 - 11:29 : Is planning on taking his 3rd, looks at his third realises there's a ling there and kills it with his hellions before lifting his cc.
clearly any good zerg would put a zergling at third to know of terran third timing, some even borrow. regardless pull the hellion to be there so i can scan if needed.

11:47 - 11:50 : Notices how he sends his hellions straight but immediately realises theres 1 ling coming to the 4th base so changes the direction of his hellions to kill it.
game sense, thought he would try scout after the ling die to see what defence on third i had.. i.e. if i had bunker, supply wall or planetary to see what is up

12:26 - 12:29 : Selects Viking and redoes his attack rally straight through 2 overlords on the map.
He ran away from the queen, then redid his attack rally to avoid the third base, but went back to the original path (looking at the edges of the map)

Just using common pathing....

12:45 - 12:50 : Notices 1 ling attacking his 3rd, immediately realises my opponent knows I have a 3rd, what's he gonna do is he gonna attack me? So moves his camera to the watchtower where Enderr's units are to see if hes in threat.

obviously you would focus attention to larger blobs on map because force is larger, just common practice.

13:00 - 13:07 : Notice how Enderr has some lings on the map moving to his 3rd and he puts down 3 supply depots conveniently to prevent runbys from happening.
Later in the game, this depo wall dies and he rebuilds it shortly after. It may have been "conveniently" placed the first time, but that might have been coincidence. It looks like something he just does on this map.

I even did this in the third game with you. its a good place to block runbys and i always re-build makes it better to control that particular map

13:22 - 13:30 : Controls his hellions and positions them perfectly way before he even sees any lings on the minimap.
I have really good hellion control, do you not remember the games where I used to open gas first hellion into hellion drop into mech against you going back a few seasons sir?

14:40 - 15:00 : Moves out of his base with his army, but purposely leaves some marines behind and rallys to his natural because he knows that there are units positioned at the 4th.

I like to have some units at home, its far to common when runbys/basetrade occur.

16:00 : This far into the game hes had 3 Orbitals and a viking has not scouted his opponents base to see if hes going mutas at all, what kind of retarded terran doesn't afraid of mutas makes 0 turrets. At this point all he has seen on the minimap is 2 hatcheries 1 pool and 1 extractor.

This is just experience and game sense. Mutas are not as common right now, and I would probably lose to something as stupid as a 8min spire timing.

16:46 - 16:48 : The 3rd time he selects his viking all game, his rally pathing goes straight through 2 overlords and 3 zerglings(which are the only things on the whole right hand side of the map) pretty godly starsense.

my viking pathings are mainly rhs anyway >><<

16:54 - 16:59 : Notice how he selects his SCV because there are 40 zerglings at his 4th he looks there before knowing theres anything there.

This has been explained by delete....

17:18 - 17:24 : Notice how his 2 medivacs are already rallied but because he realises he's flying past either an overlord or a zergling he is planning to change the direction of his medivacs but then once they get closer he realises it's only a zergling so he's just ignoring it and going back on course.
He controls his double medivac drop to try and kill any of the lings that killed that scv shortly before. He doesn't see any, and resets the medivacs path to do the drop in the main. He flies over a zergling that was barely out of the medivac's vision while his camera was on the medivacs.

It's hard to control double medivac drops, so you can understand that im gonna panic at a zergling thinking its an ol. that's just a panic response because of discipline which I have put on myself after analysing my own games and improving i got to the stage where I do not like making mistakes. had i just gone right over the same path would have been a mistake for me.

19:39 - 19:40 : He directly pinpoints his army movement to where the zergs army is just infront of.

Are you even serious?

Quick Comments

	TABiggun:	This is what we have been asking you to do this whole day. Now we can finally analyse some explanations
	MrToast:
	nirvAnA:

[FvRelimzkE]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

I just want to highlight this. this is HUGE. how did people miss that? aren't hacks known to have that specific camera lock feature whenever you look through the fog of war? and that directly contradicts all the "dead time" where the "camera locks" and he does nothing?

map hackers CANNOT look through fog of war, it screen locks

Before I say this, I'd just like to point out I'm not accusing anyone of anything.
It is possible to disable this camera lock feature. Clicking inside of the fog of war is an emergency override and there are ways to permanently disable it before even going into a game.

After watching the Spades debate today, the evidence against chobo seems much more scarce, however I'm not an advanced player so I'm afraid I can't offer a valid opinion since my game knowledge is rubbish.

Edit: As Evets points out a few posts down, in some hacks you also have to manually screenlock. The ones I am describing have it automatically enabled, and clicking inside the fog of war cancels out the lock until you go back into your vision

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

I just want to highlight this. this is HUGE. how did people miss that? aren't hacks known to have that specific camera lock feature whenever you look through the fog of war? and that directly contradicts all the "dead time" where the "camera locks" and he does nothing?

We've got a couple of issues here.

Firstly, this thread has blown up coinciding with the spades hacking accusations. This means that many sources of information regarding hacks are coming different places. A large portion of the spades allegations centre around the camera lock, now I'm by no means an expert but apparently there are multiple types of hack, with many different features. I believe you can make it totally automatic so you can't look into fog of war at all (hence allegations about spade using the minimap all the time), push button activated, so it only happens when you press a button, or obviously not at all.

Obviously IF Chobo was using a hack we also don't know if it has any or all of these features. Many posters have looked at timings to try and determine if the camera is being locked at different times, they may or may not be right. Chobo may or may not have it enabled at different times. I think given the amazing 'game sense' shown and pointed out by Mafia on his video replay, along with many other analysis' done I'd say that Chobo is hacking, but that's my personal opinion. Also I'd say that I don't accept all the evidence presented, and I believe that in some analysis' the case has been overstated (not EVERYTHING is proof of a hack).

The issue becomes though often the bulk of the evidence is overlooked because of one over exaggeration or inconsistency. If a summary was made up of all the evidence we know to be correct I'd say it would be more damning than any case put forward for those on the 'confirmed' hacker list so far. Inadequate explanations and defence in the forum, amazing game sense, constant 'coincidences', constant 'could have assumed that...', poor performance live while amazing performance online, average performance then amazing performance after a short break, it's all there.

Like I said, I think that overstating the case has lead to people raising valid doubts about the 5% overstated and that casts doubt on the whole thing, but try and take a step back and look at all these amazing 'coincidences'.

[FaDeEvetS]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

I just want to highlight this. this is HUGE. how did people miss that? aren't hacks known to have that specific camera lock feature whenever you look through the fog of war? and that directly contradicts all the "dead time" where the "camera locks" and he does nothing?

map hackers CANNOT look through fog of war, it screen locks

You have to hold down a hotkey to screenlock, isn't an automatic thing

Quick Comments

	inFeZa:	you come in handy
	NvRossi:	THANK YOU!
	MooZfY:	^ what he said :3
	nirvAnA:
	TAriiChard:

[ROOTPetraeus]

Ok I just watched Mafia's analysis.. I don't see why this guy isn't confirmed. In the other replays I have seen it hasn't been as conclusive but I am 100% sure he was maphacking that game ._.

Quick Comments

Champi:

[nirvAnA]

What im saying biggun is it wouldn't it be impossible for him to look at ender's base through fog of war, as the map hack feature which you quoted would "camera lock" him and make it become a random pause in the game?

in his game vs ender there was no camera lock and he was seen looking through for fog of war at enders base.

[mGGDaedalus]

I just watched mafia's VOD of analysing the ohana game vs ender (http://www.twitch.tv/xeriamafia/b/320424553 for reference).

There were a couple of points that I thought could be defencible for chobo. Mafia mentions that he's never seen the top watchtower for units, but the viking that moved around the bottom left of map up to main and across past 3rd, did scout that tower. Also the fact that he made no turrets, while seeming suspicious, maybe he could assume that after the early game damage ender took combined with taking a quick 3rd, that he couldn't really afford mutas (I don't really know if high level terrans are good at judging this on the fly).

Other than that though, every point Mafia brought up looks heavily suspicious. No single point could be considered irrefutable evidence on its own, but seeing all the evidence in conjunction leads me to the opinion that chobo was hacking that game.

Still, seeing as by it's nature none of the evidence is by itself irrefutable, I would love to see more replays brought forward so a pattern can be established more strongly if there is one.

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by FaDeJoshboy

Still, seeing as by it's nature none of the evidence is by itself irrefutable, I would love to see more replays brought forward so a pattern can be established more strongly if there is one.

To be fair, there has been analysis on multiple replays, each one is being passed off as 'inconclusive need to see more', I mean look at the Shakuras turn around.

I don't know what people are hoping to see? Selection of enemy buildings in fog of war? Unless it's blatant 100% replay shows something impossible this is as clear as it gets.

Quick Comments

mGGDaedalus:

Fair point, but more evidence is never a bad thing

[Fourby]

Dont you hit the hotkey and it makes you SEEM like you are screen locked while u go around looking in their base?

Quick Comments

Baldie:

Fourby knows his hacks

[iM MaFia]

whatever, at the end of the day if i wanted to hack online i could and no one would ever suspect it or you guys wont ever catch me because ill be better than chobo at using hacks and my excuses would be just as good

what you cant argue is the bullshit that doesn't add up

you can't not ever practice or train and be good

you can't do so shit at lans and win online tournaments so convincingly

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	so chobo typed all that up and got the exact response jayaiwhy said it would above
	Zealo:	supports the theory mafia just mad cause he got 3-0ed

[CHoBo(kice)]

Originally Posted by iM Mafia

whatever, at the end of the day if i wanted to hack online i could and no one would ever suspect it or you guys wont ever catch me because ill be better than chobo at using hacks and my excuses would be just as good

what you cant argue is the bullshit that doesn't add up

you can't not ever practice or train and be good

you can't do so shit at lans and win online tournaments so convincingly

The thing is I don't use them sir...

[iM MaFia]

Originally Posted by AsGCHoBo

The thing is I don't use them sir...

thats what i would say too if i was hacking

Quick Comments

xGKingdelete:

it's what i would say if i wasn't hacking