[theFatty]

Thanks for the feedback, will improve on the points u raised in my future games. Really appreciate ur analysis

[TABottles]

Hey all, I have waited a little while for feedback on my replays.

Today i've been playing on the korean server. I feel I play best there since the skill difference is very high and i'm way more motivated to play better. Here's a replay against a on the korean ladder.

I'm asking for feedback on this particular one because I feel it's one of my more solid games. If anyones nice enough to tell me what else i can do to push up the ranks it would be appreciated.

http://drop.sc/110395

Quick Comments

breadfan:

You can get a dedicated practice partner for TvT. I volunteer

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by TABottles

Hey all, I have waited a little while for feedback on my replays.

Today i've been playing on the korean server. I feel I play best there since the skill difference is very high and i'm way more motivated to play better. Here's a replay against a on the korean ladder.

I'm asking for feedback on this particular one because I feel it's one of my more solid games. If anyones nice enough to tell me what else i can do to push up the ranks it would be appreciated.

http://drop.sc/110395

I made the replay analyze on stream tonight after having fixed it thanks to Joshboy : http://www.twitch.tv/nemoulysses/b/308486462

You can watch my assassination of proper English and some advice for you that I hope will be useful.

Post lost games, it's 2 times better ! When you makes mistakes but it has no importance because you win, the advice won't stick as well.

[TABottles]

^yeah breadfan that would be helpful, thanks dude! i'll add you up and shiz!

[Nemo]

Bottles, having 0 feeback when you do an analysis for someone is unpleasant and discouraging. It makes me feel that you didn't even bother to watch it.

I would like to know if :

• You could understand when I speak in the stream;
• It's not unpleasant to listen to (bad sound, bad english, to much "euh", etc);
• If you prefer screenshots analysis and if so if this one is still OK (take far less time to do)
• If the advice are pertinent.

If someone else have watch it and could tell me on those points, I would be interested.

[Apth]

Originally Posted by Nemo

• You could understand when I speak in the stream;
• It's not unpleasant to listen to (bad sound, bad english, to much "euh", etc);
• If you prefer screenshots analysis and if so if this one is still OK (take far less time to do)
• If the advice are pertinent.

If someone else have watch it and could tell me on those points, I would be interested.

• Sound quality is a lot better than when we were trying to record (what did you change, just out of interest?)
• Video quality is good
• Your English is fine
• Can't speak to the feedback as PvT isn't a matchup I'm familiar with

What I might suggest is opening up Word or something at the end of the cast and typing out your main points just to reinforce them.

Good cast

Quick Comments

Nemo:

Thanks !

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by Apth

• Sound quality is a lot better than when we were trying to record (what did you change, just out of interest?)
• Video quality is good
• Your English is fine
• Can't speak to the feedback as PvT isn't a matchup I'm familiar with

What I might suggest is opening up Word or something at the end of the cast and typing out your main points just to reinforce them.

Good cast

Apth, my hero !

Thanks for the feedback ! Ok got it for the short summary at the end.

• Sound quality is a lot better than when we were trying to record (what did you change, just out of interest?)

I bought a new laptop at work and it's more powerful than my tower at home. Same Microphone. So it was the sheer processor power and RAM I guess. I have the same Internet broadband.
I think I have now sort of 6 or 8G RAM and an Intel icore 7.
As soon as we both are awake and free we will be able to cast something.

Thanks delete.

[asdfSchnitzel]

Hey guys, this is a thread i just played on ladder versus my diamond opponant. I found this style very infuriating to deal with and i was wondering if you had any feedback on what i could do to counter it better/do damage earlier. Thanks

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by QEDSchnitzel

Hey guys, this is a thread i just played on ladder versus my diamond opponant. I found this style very infuriating to deal with and i was wondering if you had any feedback on what i could do to counter it better/do damage earlier. Thanks

Diamond . Delete, that's a job for you.

[xGKingdelete]

Originally Posted by Nemo

Diamond . Delete, that's a job for you.

will get around to it tomorrow

[xGKingdelete]

Originally Posted by QEDSchnitzel

Hey guys, this is a thread i just played on ladder versus my diamond opponant. I found this style very infuriating to deal with and i was wondering if you had any feedback on what i could do to counter it better/do damage earlier. Thanks

Game Summary
PvZ on Cloud Kingdom
FFE vs a fast third. You do a warp prism +1attack 4gate but it doesn't do significant economic damage. He goes for 3base mutaling with double spire, you stay on 2base with a blink stalker immortal composition. You attack his third, but he gets a good surround on your army with muta ling and kills all the stalkers. You get away with some units and snipe his 4th base. However, after this he keeps you on two base. You move out again and kill his third and fourth bases, but he intercepts your army on the way home and you lose everything.

I think you played that pretty well, you're a lot better at dealing with muta harass than before

Game Analysis and tips

+ Show +

You lost because of a combination of factors.

• opening
• expansion count
• unit composition

Opening
Your opening is good, but you need to refine it. You want the attack to hit as fast as possible, with as much force as possible. Every second counts, because your opening sets you up for the rest of the game.

Nexus first or forge first?
Your opponent went for a no gas opening: 16pool, 15 hatch. Against a late spawning pool, you should go nexus first, then forge, then gateway. Especially on maps with a long rush distance such as this map, Cloud Kingdom. He won't be attacking you with a 16pool. If he wanted to, he would have made an earlier one.

Against earlier pools (from 6-12), you should get the forge first, because he's 100% sure to be attacking you. Otherwise he would have done a 16pool.

for the standard 14pool into gas, it can go either way. They might be doing a speedling opening into heavy macro style, or they could be preparing for an all in. You can't really tell so you have to come back to scout later, to check whether he has taken a third by the 5 minute mark (if he hasn't it could be an all in or a 2base muta rush).

But anyway, in this game, he opened with 16pool. So you should be taking advantage of this and playing greedily.


You get the cannon before your gateway. In my opinion, you could have just built the gateway first, since it's such a long rush distance on this map. If you spot 4-6 lings trying to run into your base, you can just fully wall off with a second gateway, buying enough time for the cannon to finish.
His drone comes and harasses your building probe. This delays your gateway even more. I think there was still an opportunity to build the gateway if you microed around a bit, because his drone was just following your probe on an attack command.

(I'm focusing a lot on the gateway timing because the faster you get the gateway, the faster you get your cybernetics core, and the faster your rush will be)

If you built gateway before cannon, it would have been at 3:15.
If you built gateway as soon as you had 150 additional minerals, it would have been at 3:30.
You end up building it at 3:45. That's 30 seconds slower than it could have been.


Just another note on your opening, it's better to build 17 probes before stopping, instead of 15. It's because you just want to have as many probes as possible at this stage, because each probe makes a big difference. 18 is too many (you want to resume probe production once you put down the gateway, and 18 will supply block you). So 17 is the magic number.


Gateway finishes at 4:50. Cybernetics core should have been dropped within 5 seconds of this. It takes you 12 seconds. It might not seem like a big deal, but it all adds up in the end.


If possible, try to get the warp prism out faster. Your warp gates are done warping at about 8:20, and your first warp prism spawns 10 seconds after. Ideally, your warp prism would be about halfway to his base at this time (when gates are done, enter phasing mode, warp in 4 units, then go back into transport mode. once you get to his base, your gates should be ready for a second warp in).

I think you didn't have enough gateways, as well. If you built 2 extra gateways earlier, you would have 6 gates to work with, instead of just four. The three that you did build were too late and didn't help in the fight.


Expansion Count
A rule that zergs tend to follow is "stay one base ahead of protoss". By this logic, if the you are on equal bases, you're in a good position. This is why zerg gets a fast 3rd vs a FFE, and why many transitions out of FFE are usually pushes designed to kill the third, or do significant economic damage.

So if you end up taking out his third, or doing a lot of damage, you should stay on two base for a while. You're comfortable being on equal bases.
But if, like in this case, you don't kill the third or do significant economic damage, you have to expand as soon as safely possible.
When the zerg holds off your push, they're likely to drone up and add more tech, as opposed to doing a huge counter attack. So most of the time it's safe to get a third, as long as you build a good amount of cannons (3-4). The extra gas can be used for sentries, which are always good, and/or tech/upgrades.

What ultimately end up costing you the game was the fact that you didn't have a third base. You were pretty much on one mining base after the 17 minute mark. I suggest aiming to have a third base completed by the 16 minute mark, at the latest. Preferably earlier. A protoss on 3 mining bases with 70+ probes is very hard to beat in the lategame.


Unit Composition
When you do your attack, you spot his spire halfway done. You already have a twilight council done and you research blink, which is good. But then you build immortals. Immortal/blink stalker is a good composition against roach based armies, but against mutalisks and zerglings, immortals are actually the most useless unit in the protoss tech tree. You can use the robo to build a few observers instead. If you just have them spotting the area around your base, you'll be prepared for mutas with blink stalkers no matter where he attacks from.

Ideally you want to have your army to have lots of gateway units. Zealots for the lings. Stalkers for the mutas. And high templar, archons and sentries, which just help a lot. If you cut the immortals, you'll have enough money to afford to tech up and expand (third base is crucial).


After a while you make a transition into double stargate phoenix. I don't recommend this. Phoenix are only good verse mutalisks when you already have a few before the spire is complete. 4 phoenix still won't beat 24 mutas (but maybe this will change in the next patch!). For now, it's better to focus on gateway units and templar.

engagement/positioning in battles

Unfortunately your forcefields were late here, and he gets a surround. But don't stop forcefielding. You still had enough energy for a lot more. If you forcefielded around where the red line is, you could have prevented a lot of damage from the lings.
Also, try to keep your warp prism in a safe place for warping in. You should have had it more north west, away from the mutas. This ends up costing you, as he snipes the warp prism while you are warping in 7 stalkers.


important: When you have an engagement like this, you should blink all of your stalkers under the mutas. That way, you have all of your stalkers attacking mutas, and his zerglings will be attacking zealots.
It's not so bad for this battle, since he didn't have enough lings anyway.

In Summary

• refine opening to be faster and stronger
• keep up in expansions
• no immortals vs muta ling

Really, I think it was just being stuck on 3 bases that lost you the game. You dealt with everything else pretty well

Quick Comments

	Stallion:	baws analysis bro ^_^
	Apth:
	Nemo:	Wow wow wow !
	asdfSchnitzel:	Thanks for the help! Will take on board when i see this style again ^^

[Fenner]

Hey guys, I really struggle with ZvP.

In this particular replay i go 3 hatch and he goes ffe into 8 gate, I macro well and realize that hes going 7/8 gate so I cut on drones and had 10 more drones than him. The problem is he completely rolls me and I have no idea what I can change here to make such a big difference.

One thing I did badly this game is to not get my ovies in position quickly enough for saccing, which is something I will focus on in the future but I knew he was going for some heavy gate allin anyway so in this replay is it semi-irrelevant.

Also my spawning overlords go into the middle of the battle, I need to focus on putting my ovies in safe spots as soon as i build them to save me from this happening.

I feel like I'm missing something much bigger here as I don't even get close to holding it off. I'm not looking for any really in-depth analysis but I would appreciate if someone would skip through and see if they can see anything major I'm missing to get crushed so hard by this push.

Thanks guys

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=773

[Apth]

Originally Posted by fenner

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=773

First off, I'd like to ask any higher level Zerg players around to take a look at this, as doubtless there are several things I'm going to miss because of the level of play.

hok -

Spines
This is pretty much the only solution I have to your problem. You macro'd well, you scouted what was coming, there were no positioning or compositional errors.
Yet he ate your head.

I think a line of spines at your natural would have given you the extra damage output you needed to kill that Stalker/Zealot ball. It would have meant losing your third, putting you on even bases, but I don't think your opponent would have been in a good position to expand had his aggression failed.

He had no 'control' tech, so to speak - Voids, DTs, Blink - so if you had bounced that aggression you would have been in a really good spot. I think spines would be worth the drone/resource investment.

Again, if any higher level Zerg's could have a look at this, I'd appreciate it.

Cheers yo.

Quick Comments

Fenner:

[xGKingdelete]

Originally Posted by fenner

Hey guys, I really struggle with ZvP.

In this particular replay i go 3 hatch and he goes ffe into 8 gate, I macro well and realize that hes going 7/8 gate so I cut on drones and had 10 more drones than him. The problem is he completely rolls me and I have no idea what I can change here to make such a big difference.

One thing I did badly this game is to not get my ovies in position quickly enough for saccing, which is something I will focus on in the future but I knew he was going for some heavy gate allin anyway so in this replay is it semi-irrelevant.

Also my spawning overlords go into the middle of the battle, I need to focus on putting my ovies in safe spots as soon as i build them to save me from this happening.

I feel like I'm missing something much bigger here as I don't even get close to holding it off. I'm not looking for any really in-depth analysis but I would appreciate if someone would skip through and see if they can see anything major I'm missing to get crushed so hard by this push.

Thanks guys

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=773

few things to note:
-6 drones mining from your third. in this particular game, the third cost you more than you got from it
-worst map for fast 3base against FFE

If you can't take on his army and he's knocking at your front door, pull drones. They hard counter stalkers. Don't fight a battle that you can't win.
I think you needed spines, although on this map they wouldn't really help since he can go either to your third or natural. Whenever I do gateway pushes, I usually back off if there's 2-3 spines up, with roaches behind.
I don't know exactly how you could do it, but if you could somehow got a good amount of lings to flank from behind, there were no forcefields to stop them.
Would like to see an overlord here

He did an extremely greedy FFE in response to your opening. If you moved in with a couple of lings at the start, you could have harassed his mineral line and forced a second cannon at the least.

That's all of the little things I can think of. Maybe you should do a speedling opening on this map. I don't think a fast third before gas will work against this, no matter what.

Quick Comments

Fenner:

[Fenner]

Thanks for the responses guys.

Honestly I never think to use spines because splitting them between bases seems terribly inefficient, I have never actually tried them though. I will definitely experiment with them a bit more to see if they're stronger than I think they are, probably better than spamming lings either way

@Apth Saccing the third is definitely an option but I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with it. But I like what you said about tech, I could sac it then come out with a timing of either roach hydra or roach infestor before he manages to turtle back up into some tech which will be very strong against some gateway composition with a very low aount of sentries.

@delete I never thought about that overlord spot haha, thanks! I know fast 3rd on this map isn't ideal however I'm not fond of any 2 base macro opening styles. I do like 1 or 2 base allins however

Actually thinking about it even more, since my 3rd is so far away from my nat and i was going somewhat heavy on the lings, counter attacking whilst saccing the 3rd and spining up my natural may well be a good option. I think this could work really well in fact. This actually sounds like a great response at least in theory and in my own head!

Thanks for your responses, they got me thinking about it in more details. Always nice to hear other peoples views.

[ToRPandarine]

So, I've been in the last month trying to get from to (cause people have been ribbing me for staying in the same league for THREE seasons ) and to keep myself going I started a blog here.

Recently I don't know if its Blizzard's Matchmaking system is trying to **** me over or its gotta do with the time I play or I'm actually improving . I've been placed with Top 25 s, Top 8 s and s. So, here's the game that I think I'm pretty pissed about. It is a vs which recently has been a slight problem for me (that AND vs . Get into deadlock, go mass BC but that's a different story for now).

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=774

I believe this is my opponents placement match as he is immediately put into with just 1 win.

I go with a 1/1/1 with Medivacs instead of Banshees. I realised that I should've gotten my Stim and other upgrades quicker but I was all over the place. I also think that sitting in those Storms and maybe getting a few Marauders would have helped.

I would however, appreciate the Replay Feedback Team's opinion on what I could've have done better.

Thanks and GLHF,
ThePandarine

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by ThePandarine

So, I've been in the last month trying to get from to (cause people have been ribbing me for staying in the same league for THREE seasons ) and to keep myself going I started a blog here.

Recently I don't know if its Blizzard's Matchmaking system is trying to **** me over or its gotta do with the time I play or I'm actually improving . I've been placed with Top 25 s, Top 8 s and s. So, here's the game that I think I'm pretty pissed about. It is a vs which recently has been a slight problem for me (that AND vs . Get into deadlock, go mass BC but that's a different story for now).

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=774

I believe this is my opponents placement match as he is immediately put into with just 1 win.

I go with a 1/1/1 with Medivacs instead of Banshees. I realised that I should've gotten my Stim and other upgrades quicker but I was all over the place. I also think that sitting in those Storms and maybe getting a few Marauders would have helped.

I would however, appreciate the Replay Feedback Team's opinion on what I could've have done better.

Thanks and GLHF,
ThePandarine

I have made the replay analysis: http://www.twitch.tv/nemoulysses/b/310739727

Summarize

• If you're going 1-1-1 don't expand before attacking him. That's a super aggressive build and you need to make as many units as possible before your first doom push.
• If 1-1-1 and you see your opponent 1 basing for a long time, make a bunker because you're vulnerable at the begining.
• If 1-1-1 and no hellion drop, make banshees. They rule at the begining to harass, kill immortals etc.
• Don't spread your tanks too much as you did. It's not TvZ.
• Spread your marines in a concave to avoid being stormed like that or Colossi splash damage.
• You're playing well. You will be soon .
• I recommand you ging bio into medivac ghost vikings for TvP

Quick Comments

breadfan:

Awesome advice, I want to add that SCV production should be improved

[Nemo]

Panda, I will look at it sunday, when I'm back home.

[Next_rim]

Need help with very late game pvt. I can't seem to be able to put together enough stuff to crush the damn terran. Here are two replays of PvT's gone wrong, one is 58 mins, other is close to 50. What have I missed?

Game 1: http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=465
Game 2: http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=464

In game 2 I actually disconnected, but the mere fact that it lasted for so long, and I wasn't able to win is eloquent enough.

[xGKingdelete]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

Need help with very late game pvt. I can't seem to be able to put together enough stuff to crush the damn terran. Here are two replays of PvT's gone wrong, one is 58 mins, other is close to 50. What have I missed?

Game 1: http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=465
Game 2: http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=464

In game 2 I actually disconnected, but the mere fact that it lasted for so long, and I wasn't able to win is eloquent enough.

I don't think we need any indepth analysis for this one.

Game One: PvT Shakuras
It's important to remember with unorthodox games like these that the problem isn't your micro, or your macro. It's more about your decision making and scouting.

In this game, he got an economic lead in the beginning, and maintained it all game. The end result was him mining out about 5 bases, and you mining out about 3. It didn't matter that at one point you had lost 10k resources and he had lost 20k, because his economy was so far ahead.

1) Your opponent did a gasless opening. This means either 1rax expand or some kind of marine scv all in/super aggression.
4:15 game time. You notice an engineering bay with 750/850 hp at your natural. This means it's a 1rax expand. If he was going to all in you, he would want you to put down the expansion and slow down the production of your units. He would want the extra 125 minerals to maintain marine production after he pulls scvs.
Any engineering bay in your natural means it's a 1rax expand.

So from here you have to decide whether to all in him or try to catch up economically. You decide to play it from behind. Note that his third cc (hidden expo) is done before your natural is finished. So you're playing from behind this game. This guy economically cheesed you.

If a terran is hiding a quick third, it's possible to scout it by looking at his main.
-no mules at main or natural, yet orbital energy is low (tbh I never bother to do this)
-he has way too much stuff.
-he has 5 bunkers at the front of his base (it means he's really worried about an attack, either because he is hiding something crazy like 3port banshee or because he doesn't have much units. In this game, the 5 bunkers was because his production was so delayed by the super quick third.)


In this game at 10:40, he has 3 engineering bays (you should have scouted more thoroughly with the observer as you missed this), 6 rax (two in production), and a "third" CC in production. He adds an armory shortly after.

Normally when you scout you're looking for starport timings, engineering bay timings, the amount of rax, and whether a 3rd CC is on the way. Since you're so focused on that, it's not easy to realise that he has more things than he should have. But hopefully after this you'll be able to identify that terran's hiding a third somewhere judging from the amount of buildings (the 3 engineering bays was just ridiculous).

So after you realise he's hiding a third, you can look around at the likely locations for a hidden expansion, and if you manage to find and kill all of the scvs, you'll be miles ahead.


2) Your third was too late. It's generally harder to take thirds when going for collosus off two base, but you still have to try and get it. 2-3 collosus with thermal lance should be enough to secure the closer base on shakuras, with good forcefields. Also, unless you're going for a two base all in, try to continue probe production. It's okay to over saturate your natural (sometimes I have like 40 probes at my natural) as long as you take a third base and transfer those probes to saturate it immediately.

So yeah. Your opponent had his fourth before your third. Also, after the 14 minute mark, he was generally ahead by 20-30 SCVs for the whole game. He ends up sniping your third at the 18 minute mark, as well. It's almost impossible to catch up up to his economic lead.

If he ends up with 3 planetary fortresses splitting the map in half, it's almost impossible to beat. You can try drops or something like that, but most of the time you won't be able to break it.


So in summary, in this game you did a two base play transitioning into a late third, while he took a pretty fast fourth and secured his half of the map. You'll either have to attack before his 4 base macro kicks in, or take faster expansions yourself.

Just a few things in general, I suggest getting a second obs, and using prioritising feedback over storm (unless you have a really good opportunity to land blanket storms). Also, remake probes when you lose them. When you lost all of those probes to the nukes, you had 7k minerals to spare. Might as well spend 1k of those minerals to remake 20 probes.

I think there was one point in the game where you could have won, 32:40 game time, if you go back to the replay. You're about 40 supply ahead, with a couple of collosus and 9 templar (most of the time you'll only need 4-5 templar, so use the extra templar for archons). But then you attack into his planetary wall and lose your entire army when his reinforcements arrived.

If you just walked past the wall, you could have sniped two of his mining expansions, plus three orbitals. That might cost you your army, but you had enough of a bank to remake an army of zealots and templar.
it's usually a bad idea to attack into planetaries


That's pretty much all I have to say, sorry if there are any grammar issues, I haven't edited it. I'll get to game 2 tomorrow.


P.S. Your late game PvT is fine, it's actually pretty good. This game was just a bit gimmicky because he economically cheesed you.
I suggest making a second robo, or even a third if you build up a huge bank of resources, so you can remax on the tech that terran doesn't have (if he overmakes vikings you can stop collosus and go for templar archons etc, and if he overmakes ghosts you can go for double collosus production)

P.P.S. where's the triple stargate carriers, I am disappoint

Quick Comments

	Nemo:	Awe-some !
	ToRPandarine:	learned tht splitting the map in half with pf is good :P
	Next_rim:	thank you comrade