[ChaynesOre]

I'll echo that thing riiChard said earlier about the losing your entire text when it doesn't think you're logged in and you have to go back in the browser :S

I think somebody mentioned this way back in the thread but having just made EvetS the example/lesson/warning for everybody in the SEA scene, I imagine there'll be a much harsher penalty next time somebody is caught. And I'm not telling you guys how to do your job here because you're legends, but perhaps a written policy for your stance on hacking will serve as both a deterrent and a non-debatable platform from which to base punishments?

As for the Blizzard/clan issues, those should be their business only. As a member of FaDe, I'm personally quite happy with how things have turned out. I'll echo what Meatex said earlier in that a lot (hours upon hours) of discussion went into dealing with this over the past two days. I find it curious however how much pressure there is on a clan to act on something like this. Regardless of what we decided to do, it should remain only our business, and I think it's a shame we're somewhat forced into dolling out a harsher punishment for PR sake if nothing else (although I do happen to agree with it). It's simplistically logical for an outsider to think "a FaDe member hacks, the clan doesn't kick him? they're all hackers / support hacking and a bad clan" but I don't know how many people would truly believe that, although it's kind of the thing everybody is assuming in the back of their minds. I just think everything gets somewhat muddled in the politics and messages a bit too much, but such is community life I guess.

See you all next year.. I'mma go get drunk now.

[Cute]

Originally Posted by chaynesore

Regardless of what we decided to do, it should remain only our business, and I think it's a shame we're somewhat forced into dolling out a harsher punishment for PR sake if nothing else (although I do happen to agree with it). It's simplistically logical for an outsider to think "a FaDe member hacks, the clan doesn't kick him? they're all hackers / support hacking and a bad clan" but I don't know how many people would truly believe that, although it's kind of the thing everybody is assuming in the back of their minds. I just think everything gets somewhat muddled in the politics and messages a bit too much, but such is community life I guess.

See you all next year.. I'mma go get drunk now.

I don't believe many people think that. If anything, I see a lot of support for FaDe members for sticking by their friend. He told them he only did it once. They're his friends, why wouldn't they support him? I can't see how anyone can be upset with the way FaDe members acted. It's sure as hell what I'd do.

Quick Comments

	EveJeonSa:
	Nemo:	Agreed

[crAzerk]

Originally Posted by FadeRicochet

Would need to find the most trustworthy and unbiased jury however, and finding a way of moderating them.

I don't think a formal jury just for this is necessary just because hacking (seemingly) isn't that regular an occurrence to justify such a group.
What we have now is sufficient IMO, in that our 'jury' is basically the admin/moderating team of SC2SEA.


While I don't agree with what chaynesore said, this is good:

but perhaps a written policy for your stance on hacking will serve as both a deterrent and a non-debatable platform from which to base punishments?

CC: nirvAnA!

[Snx`Azz]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but there used to be a clan called x-17 in broodwar and it was a pretty well known hacker team.

Is this the same evets we talking about? Evetsx-17?

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

[tex0111_slyguy_golden]

I watched the replay of FadeEvets and Marc and I didn't notice any cheating, yes the drone pull off at the expansion was weird but he was only 250 minerals and with the 3 drones he might of did that because of the late pool to check for a bunker and the overlord never saw the drone leave the area even thought it wasn't revealing whole ramp at the expansion and if he was map hacking why would he move his overseer at Marc's 2nd expansion to see what's going on at the 3rd expansion?

Plus I watched whole replay in Marc point of view and watched for any of FadeEvets clicking on Marc' units and there was none at all that I could find so he couldn't be cheating and where has he admitted to cheating as the link says FadeEvets admint's to cheating?

only reason I checked this out is becuase I never cheat and never will, so I like to find outif ppl do.

Quick Comments

	TCPKiaSu:	read the thread dude.... evets admitted to hacking already and he lied 2 times :(
	NvJazBas:	^
	mGGDaedalus:	post
	Fourby:	Use more fullstops and comma's i feel out of breath even reading your post in my head
	NvRossi:	Get a new head
	JaFF:	what deathwing said
	RicocheT:	*tactical face palm*
	TragicHero:	D:
	AxSGRiM:	hurt my soul
	Drizabone:	A+ for effort
	Dox:	engrish
	SLCN.NXZ:	I thought that guy in the naniwa thread was the most ridiculous a post on these forums could get, you proved me wrong
	iM yang:	what a head
	Zanderax:	Doesn't deserve that! Offsetting a bit
	FaDeBadger:	Does deserve it
	EveMassacrisM:	What what the the f*** f*** ? - Day9
	TAScarecrow:	deserved
	wolf:	this guy
	nirvAnA:	lesson learned. chin up mate, just be sure to read the thread first next time :)
	TAEdarus:	..|..

[TASponge]

He only admitted to it cause he got caught, as he said"it was easy to get away with". Doesn't deserve any sympathy.

[Strafe]

Maphacking is just very sad. Just ban him indefinitely until you decide to give him another chance. 3 months is so little, and so is 6. Imo you shouldn't be allowed to compete for a long time when you do such thing otherwise it just doesn't seem like a big deal at all.

And lol at still sucking so hard when you maphack

Quick Comments

	TargA:	hahaha
	MooZfY:	I sooooooooooooooooooo argree
	TAScarecrow:
	TASponge:
	x5.Revenant:	Baller!
	nirvAnA:	easy to kick someone when he's down. cmon strafe ^_^ ~!
	TAEdarus:	Minus the jab at his skill, I agree.

[wolf]

I agree with Light's latest post. I think 3 months which was reduced to 2 is too weak of a precedent for other cases that are sure to follow. Personally, I believe 6 months would be adequate for this type of situation, with 12 months given if the person doesn't come clean. To those saying that this would be e-death for him within the scene, I'd say that it was his own fault in the first place to use the hack. Responsibility doesn't fall on the courts system when a person is found guilty of child molestation (lol Light, , any crime, really). This is the premier site for an entire server, and in my opinion the punishment needs to be higher, regardless of who it is.

Quick Comments

	ToRsupapower:	Doesn't matter who it is really, they all deserve a proper punishment
	Strafe:

[Nemo]

I can understand people are angry with them and want harder punishment than 2 or 3 months. But don't forget it's already harder since there is community work too.

It's easy to forget but I can tell from the very few I do myself that's a lot of work and dedication. It's not because Nirvana and other do a crazy amount of work here that it's all fun and pleasure. It's actually working for others, but it's still working.

If people want more punishment, then let's make the community work harder. For example it could be doing paid coaching for people and payment is given to sc2sea instead. The player could not come back in tournament until 200$ is paid by satisfied coached players to the site. The player could not pay himself and must have positive feedback from each coached student.

He must make a thread himself, search for people who would want paid coaching etc. He can search outside sc2sea, in NA forum or EU etc. It's even better if he searches outside so not make competition to other payed coaches like PiG for example.

Gaining 200$ for the site is not so easy (if you think so, just try ) and would ease the anger of people (especially those who could win it in a tournament) against him. It would also help him redeem himself by working for others by his coaching.

6 month of tournament ban or 3 (or 2) months with hard community work. The culprits can choose. It would be easier to do for people who has already the habit to help. That's all good.

The 200$ might be too much, I don't know. It's yours to say.

There are so better ways of punishing someone for "light" crimes than just letting passing time. Construction and redeeming by work and help is so much better.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	haha nemo no $$ necessary. i was thinking he gives back like 20 hours of free coaching to the community
	mGGDaedalus:	3mths with proven dedication means more than 6months of nothing

[nirvAnA]

I dont know why the meany case is being ignored. No one stepping out to do analysis, no one demanding he be brought to justice, people still focusing on attacking evets. I think theres some crazy double standards going on.

whatever the punishment decided for evets, meany has to be punished and even more because he denied it and we want to send the message that denying it shouldn't be rewarded.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

I dont know why the meany case is being ignored. No one stepping out to do analysis, no one demanding he be brought to justice, people still focusing on attacking evets. I think theres some crazy double standards going on.

whatever the punishment decided for evets, meany has to be punished and even more because he denied it and we want to send the message that denying it shouldn't be rewarded.

I thought this thread was only in relation to evets, due to the thread title Nirv. Like I said in my previous post, I would support meany getting a substantially harsher punishment due to him denying it. Nemo I do like your idea, thought raising $200 might even be worse than a 6 month ban! :-p

[NvRossi]

What are the admins views on Meanys case? i say ban him from tournaments for 6 months too

[Peleus]

I'd have to agree with him going up on the cheaters wall - It was pretty clear map hacking imo.

[Strafe]

Receiving coaching from a self admitted maphacker must be awesome. I bet everyone is dying to have him tell you where to look for and how to not get caught.

Quick Comments

	NvRossi:	ROFL well said
	NvJazBas:
	mGMUSE:	being a manipulative bitch seems like a useful skill toi have in poker
	nirvAnA:	I like the strafe two posts down more
	Rage:
	TCPKiaSu:

[Rockstar]

This issue has really been pissing me off lately. My tongues been somewhat tied on the issue for obvious reasons but now there's all this talk of reform and rehabilitation, giving back to the community etc. etc. and It's just.... pissing me off.

I have but one question.....

WHY the **** are we even contemplating rehabilitation and reformation. This is absolutely ridiculous. It truly is. Hacking is the single worst thing that you can do in this community... The only thing every person on this site has in common is the desire to play Starcraft 2. Blatantly cheating at it disrespects every single individual that has ever bothered to make an account on this website. We are not a conglomeration of saints put here to reform people back into our community. We shouldn't be welcoming anyone who cheats back into the community with open arms. It's absolutely ridiculous. They have cheated every single person here... Every ******* one of you... They've lied to your face, they've chuckled behind your backs... They're probably flickin their bean over the thread right now having a good old laugh before they can rejoin the community and not get -->caught<-- hacking again...

Starcraft 2 isn't just some bullshit game on the internet... It's a strategic free thinking mechanical battle of the wits. This game combines so many valued abilities... It's the equivelant of playing chess with 6 grams up your nose.

I'm not the best SC2 player in the world... I don't compete in the GM league and dedicate hours upon hours of my time to becoming the best... But there's a lot of you that do... These cheating scumbags have blatantly robbed you... You may not even know it... Every one of you think back to when you last played one of these hackers... Did you lose? were you pissed off? did they make you ragequit? did you just know something wasn't right... That you lost even though you knew you should have won?? was it enjoyable for you to lose a game you should never have lost? Did it make you want to get up and start playing again? or just turn the game off and go do something else?

Hacking is just cheap laughs at someone elses expense... These people are all laughing at you. Whether you thought they were your friend or not, they're laughing their asses off... at you.

I can understand that some people may feel attached to these people. They might have been your friend for a long ass time... a good bloke.... That doesn't change the fact they're pissing themselves laughing at you.

This is a very very silly precedent to set. It's just giving a massive thumbs up to anyone who would even consider using hacks.

Quick Comments

	FaDeBadger:	Take deep breath, calm down, then realise everyone deserves a second chance
	Meatex:	take some time to go back and re-read my reasoning behind his punishment. then talk to me if you still have doubts
	mGMUSE:	very true, respect
	TCPKiaSu:
	TAScarecrow:
	fray`Alpha:

[Strafe]

Even though I sort of agree with the message of your post I think you bring it way too harsh. Chill out a bit and realize Starcraft 2 is still foremost a game played for fun. Of course there are going to be some that cheat and they completely kill the fair competition factor and should be ostracized for it. However, I wouldn't go as far as saying they are the scum of the earth.

I'm sure somewhere deep down theres a chance that Evets regrets what he did. He isn't necessarily laughing at our expense. It may very well be that he feels like a dumb dick now and there should be at least the option of him coming back somewhere in the future. Just not the near future imo.

Quick Comments

	Nemo:	+1
	Maynarde:	Well said
	EveMassacrisM:	Is that rly u Strafe :)
	nirvAnA:	Now this is the strafe i know!
	wolf:	<3

[nirvAnA]

SC2SEA's Official Stance on Map Hackers

1. Banned for all SC2SEA tournaments for a period of 6 months.
2. Community work aka "good behavior" introduces the possibility of "parole" which will reduce the sentence by 1-3 months.
3. They will still be allowed to participate in the forums as that will be necessary for their community work.
4. Repeat offenders caught will be banned for life from the site completely, no exceptions.
5. Should they try to circumvent the ban in anyway or join our tournaments earlier (smurfing), they will be banned for life.

It is important to note that not everyone caught map hacking will necessarily change. Under this system those unrepentant will be fully punished but "reforming" players aware of their mistake who have changed their attitude will not be subjected to the same sentence that the unrepentant offenders receive.

Players who are unrepentant will face the stiffer sentence of 6 months, whereas players who have changed their attitudes and reformed themselves will be given the opportunity to be reintegrated in the community earlier but only after proving the change of their attitude through community work. This is similar to the "good behavior" system that reduces jail sentences in prisons.

Like Nemo says:

"Justice is no vengeance or lynching. It aims at giving a message to everyone that if you're behaving badly you will face harsh consequences but it also aim at reintegrating people in the society and community. Put yourself in his situation, don't think that it can't happen to you. We all have made mistakes in our lives. We would want a second chance if (and when) it happens to us."

Community work will be defined for now as:

• Strategy articles (GM and above)
• Free Coaching for the community (Masters and above)
• Replay Analysis in our Replay Feedback thread
• Contributive / helpful posts on SC2SEA

The 1-3 month reduction of sentence will depend on the individuals performance in the above.

EvetS' ban starts today: 3rd January and will be lifted on the 3rd of July
Keep in mind EvetS never used this in competitions nor played in many tournaments, I believe all he wanted was the respect from having a nice ladder record.

Meany's ban starts today: 3rd January and will be lifted on the 3rd of July
There have been enough analysis from Jazbas, Clan SPR, Nemo, myself and many various other people to conclude that he indeed was hacking.

Quick Comments

	asdfSchnitzel:	+1
	TAXanT:
	wolf:	laying the smackdown
	TAScarecrow:
	Nemo:	I support SC2SEA decision

[nGenLight]

Nemo: Your sentiments means very well and as such is clearly very well respected by the entire community. I am in complete agreeance with most of the things you say about rehabilitation and forgiving etc.

The only thing I'm going to disagree with you is your perception of the level of crime of hacking in SC2. As someone who has spent hours, days, weeks, months, failing uni, losing girlfriends playing the game, my perception of people cheating at the game that I love, that I've spent hours on, and was somewhat financially dependent on, whilst the guy smiled and lied to my face, is going to be very different from yours - This is what you need to understand. As you also may have noticed, the people who were the most outspoken about this are top tier players who are known work horses who'vs spent hours improving at this game just to have some savage use shortcuts to get to where they are via cheating. Just the thought of playing Evets in all those ladder games where he always knew what units I was making and my army position all the time, followed by my level of respect for him in the conversations we have after the games, makes me sick to my stomach. If you were in our shoes, your values may be different, but I cannot speak for you. I only hope that you consider the situation from the perspective of people who are more hurt than you by people (respected members of the community especially) hacking behind your back.

That said, I think the administration team did listen to our cries/whinges of a heavier punishment and have compromised somewhat to an agreeable verdict for all parties. My only concern lies now in exactly what community service he can do for a online community where his credibility won't come into direct conflict with his ability to perform the task - like running bsg tournaments or coaching?

Quick Comments

	x5.Revenant:	Couldn't have said it better
	asdfSchnitzel:
	Nemo:	Thanks heaps for the explanation. It's clearer for me now. :)
	mGMUSE:
	NvJazBas:
	Rage:
	Champi:

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

Nemo: Your sentiments means very well and as such is clearly very well respected by the entire community. I am in complete agreeance with most of the things you say about rehabilitation and forgiving etc.

The only thing I'm going to disagree with you is your perception of the level of crime of hacking in SC2. As someone who has spent hours, days, weeks, months, failing uni, losing girlfriends playing the game, my perception of people cheating at the game that I love, that I've spent hours on, and was somewhat financially dependent on, whilst the guy smiled and lied to my face, is going to be very different from yours - This is what you need to understand. As you also may have noticed, the people who were the most outspoken about this are top tier players who are known work horses who'vs spent hours improving at this game just to have some savage use shortcuts to get to where they are via cheating. Just the thought of playing Evets in all those ladder games where he always knew what units I was making and my army position all the time, followed by my level of respect for him in the conversations we have after the games, makes me sick to my stomach. If you were in our shoes, your values may be different, but I cannot speak for you. I only hope that you consider the situation from the perspective of people who are more hurt than you by people (respected members of the community especially) hacking behind your back.

Thanks for your enlightenment on your feelings and other top players ones. That's true that what seems "light crime" for me might not be light at all for guys that have put far more of them into it. I will take that more into account in the future.

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

That said, I think the administration team did listen to our cries/whinges of a heavier punishment and have compromised somewhat to an agreeable verdict for all parties. My only concern lies now in exactly what community service he can do for a online community where his credibility won't come into direct conflict with his ability to perform the task - like running bsg tournaments or coaching?

Administration team has indeed emitted the punishment and it is wise considering the harm done by cheating and expressed here by valuable members of the community.

Originally Posted by Strafe

Definitely not. You receive coaching in order to become better in a legit way. You want to become better because you love the competition and constantly want to prove yourself and measure yourself against others. The ultimate goal is to lay the smack down upon everyone and earn the mad respect you deserve.

What Evets basically did was say screw all that competition. I'm just going to cheat and pretend I can beat everyone so I get respect from online players even though it's not justified. He basically did everything against the spirit of competition and fair play. It's just wrong on a moral level to have such a player help others compete. By allowing him to coach others you attach a certain kind of credibility to his persona that he just does not deserve at this point. Being a coach, especially at GM level, is a display of a certain status. By making him a coach you will simply convey the wrong message to the community at this point.

It should be made absolutely clear to everyone that what Evets did was wrong and that he's being punished for it. Coaching others just doesn't fit in there at all. He should rehabilitate himself by simply being useful in the community. You shouldn't force him to. Where is the sincerity in that? Over time he himself can prove that he deserves another chance. His punishment for the while being though will be a complete ban from all competition until further notice.

I do respect Nirvana's & co's opinions. They clearly try to resolve this the fairest and best way possible for everyone while listening to everyones comments on the matter and in the end it is their decision+ site. However, I do feel they are way too lenient in this case and basically a bit too soft. But like Light explained this might be, because I actually grind 1000's of games without maphack so everyone taking a short cut is a huge dick in my eyes. I simply can't be bothered too much in this case, because even with maphack Evets won't be able to win anything ever, so he isn't ruining too much.

Another passionate testimony to take into account.

It should be made absolutely clear to everyone that what Evets did was wrong and that he's being punished for it.

I think that's what everybody agree on and I think that's what the now heavier punishment shows.

It's just wrong on a moral level to have such a player help others compete.

Any community work will help people to compete, not just coaching.

He is not forced. He can choose to just "pay his time" without doing anything. He will then carry the burden of a ex-cheater without having done anything to "repair". Or he can choose to redeem himself by being useful, teaching his knowledge to other. He will of course gain some respect for that and I suppose that's what might upset you the most. I can perfectly understand it. But it's still good for the community, as it gives a second chance. Remember that each one of us could fall and need a chance to redeem.

Originally Posted by Rage

A better approach would simply to say "To regain the respect/a place in our community, you need to work to benefit it in some" and let them decide how best to do that themselves. That, to me, would better demonstrate their sincerity than effectively giving them nothing more than a checklist for how to get back into the community.

He still can do something else. But it has to be at least as important than the things listed. I think coaching is one of the best. Most useful, might be one of the most time consuming. Should be streamed. And if people troll the chat, well, that's the burden to carry. As he will carry the burden of unfriendly opponents on ladder.

Originally Posted by FaDeEvetS

Hopefully this will be the last time i have to say, i'm fully intending on working on this but would rather work on real issues first.

And that's what you should do indeed. But when do you think you will be able to explain the whole thing since the beginning ? I don't know how bad are those real life stuff, but describing all from the start will not take that much time, just the crude and nude truth.

[crAzerk]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

My only concern lies now in exactly what community service he can do for a online community where his credibility won't come into direct conflict with his ability to perform the task

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Community work will be defined for now as:
Strategy articles (GM and above)
Free Coaching for the community (Masters and above)
Replay Analysis in our Replay Feedback thread
Contributive / helpful posts on SC2SEA

3 out of 4 in the definition would be fairly credible it seems.

Receiving coaching from a self admitted maphacker must be awesome. I bet everyone is dying to have him tell you where to look for and how to not get caught.

I'll assume Strafe was just kidding and hope noone actually adopts this attitude or makes this 'joke' that will directly hinder the rehabilitation and reformation of evetS.

As Light said, "the administration team did listen to our cries/whinges of a heavier punishment and have compromised somewhat to an agreeable verdict for all parties.", so I hope that everyone will accept this and give him a benefit of a doubt for now - if you're going to continue to weigh on him being a lying cheating bas**** it's not going to help matters at all.

And I completely agree with what Light said about the situation having different impact on different people - I'm not asking you to forgive him immediately or respect him or start thinking well of him - I'm just saying, stop lynching, and give him a chance to prove himself (via community service, etc)

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	Strafe:	Definitely not kidding. See post below