[nGenLight]

Nemo: Your sentiments means very well and as such is clearly very well respected by the entire community. I am in complete agreeance with most of the things you say about rehabilitation and forgiving etc.

The only thing I'm going to disagree with you is your perception of the level of crime of hacking in SC2. As someone who has spent hours, days, weeks, months, failing uni, losing girlfriends playing the game, my perception of people cheating at the game that I love, that I've spent hours on, and was somewhat financially dependent on, whilst the guy smiled and lied to my face, is going to be very different from yours - This is what you need to understand. As you also may have noticed, the people who were the most outspoken about this are top tier players who are known work horses who'vs spent hours improving at this game just to have some savage use shortcuts to get to where they are via cheating. Just the thought of playing Evets in all those ladder games where he always knew what units I was making and my army position all the time, followed by my level of respect for him in the conversations we have after the games, makes me sick to my stomach. If you were in our shoes, your values may be different, but I cannot speak for you. I only hope that you consider the situation from the perspective of people who are more hurt than you by people (respected members of the community especially) hacking behind your back.

That said, I think the administration team did listen to our cries/whinges of a heavier punishment and have compromised somewhat to an agreeable verdict for all parties. My only concern lies now in exactly what community service he can do for a online community where his credibility won't come into direct conflict with his ability to perform the task - like running bsg tournaments or coaching?

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	x5.Revenant:	Couldn't have said it better
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[Nemo]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

Nemo: Your sentiments means very well and as such is clearly very well respected by the entire community. I am in complete agreeance with most of the things you say about rehabilitation and forgiving etc.

The only thing I'm going to disagree with you is your perception of the level of crime of hacking in SC2. As someone who has spent hours, days, weeks, months, failing uni, losing girlfriends playing the game, my perception of people cheating at the game that I love, that I've spent hours on, and was somewhat financially dependent on, whilst the guy smiled and lied to my face, is going to be very different from yours - This is what you need to understand. As you also may have noticed, the people who were the most outspoken about this are top tier players who are known work horses who'vs spent hours improving at this game just to have some savage use shortcuts to get to where they are via cheating. Just the thought of playing Evets in all those ladder games where he always knew what units I was making and my army position all the time, followed by my level of respect for him in the conversations we have after the games, makes me sick to my stomach. If you were in our shoes, your values may be different, but I cannot speak for you. I only hope that you consider the situation from the perspective of people who are more hurt than you by people (respected members of the community especially) hacking behind your back.

Thanks for your enlightenment on your feelings and other top players ones. That's true that what seems "light crime" for me might not be light at all for guys that have put far more of them into it. I will take that more into account in the future.

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

That said, I think the administration team did listen to our cries/whinges of a heavier punishment and have compromised somewhat to an agreeable verdict for all parties. My only concern lies now in exactly what community service he can do for a online community where his credibility won't come into direct conflict with his ability to perform the task - like running bsg tournaments or coaching?

Administration team has indeed emitted the punishment and it is wise considering the harm done by cheating and expressed here by valuable members of the community.

Originally Posted by Strafe

Definitely not. You receive coaching in order to become better in a legit way. You want to become better because you love the competition and constantly want to prove yourself and measure yourself against others. The ultimate goal is to lay the smack down upon everyone and earn the mad respect you deserve.

What Evets basically did was say screw all that competition. I'm just going to cheat and pretend I can beat everyone so I get respect from online players even though it's not justified. He basically did everything against the spirit of competition and fair play. It's just wrong on a moral level to have such a player help others compete. By allowing him to coach others you attach a certain kind of credibility to his persona that he just does not deserve at this point. Being a coach, especially at GM level, is a display of a certain status. By making him a coach you will simply convey the wrong message to the community at this point.

It should be made absolutely clear to everyone that what Evets did was wrong and that he's being punished for it. Coaching others just doesn't fit in there at all. He should rehabilitate himself by simply being useful in the community. You shouldn't force him to. Where is the sincerity in that? Over time he himself can prove that he deserves another chance. His punishment for the while being though will be a complete ban from all competition until further notice.

I do respect Nirvana's & co's opinions. They clearly try to resolve this the fairest and best way possible for everyone while listening to everyones comments on the matter and in the end it is their decision+ site. However, I do feel they are way too lenient in this case and basically a bit too soft. But like Light explained this might be, because I actually grind 1000's of games without maphack so everyone taking a short cut is a huge dick in my eyes. I simply can't be bothered too much in this case, because even with maphack Evets won't be able to win anything ever, so he isn't ruining too much.

Another passionate testimony to take into account.

It should be made absolutely clear to everyone that what Evets did was wrong and that he's being punished for it.

I think that's what everybody agree on and I think that's what the now heavier punishment shows.

It's just wrong on a moral level to have such a player help others compete.

Any community work will help people to compete, not just coaching.

He is not forced. He can choose to just "pay his time" without doing anything. He will then carry the burden of a ex-cheater without having done anything to "repair". Or he can choose to redeem himself by being useful, teaching his knowledge to other. He will of course gain some respect for that and I suppose that's what might upset you the most. I can perfectly understand it. But it's still good for the community, as it gives a second chance. Remember that each one of us could fall and need a chance to redeem.

Originally Posted by Rage

A better approach would simply to say "To regain the respect/a place in our community, you need to work to benefit it in some" and let them decide how best to do that themselves. That, to me, would better demonstrate their sincerity than effectively giving them nothing more than a checklist for how to get back into the community.

He still can do something else. But it has to be at least as important than the things listed. I think coaching is one of the best. Most useful, might be one of the most time consuming. Should be streamed. And if people troll the chat, well, that's the burden to carry. As he will carry the burden of unfriendly opponents on ladder.

Originally Posted by FaDeEvetS

Hopefully this will be the last time i have to say, i'm fully intending on working on this but would rather work on real issues first.

And that's what you should do indeed. But when do you think you will be able to explain the whole thing since the beginning ? I don't know how bad are those real life stuff, but describing all from the start will not take that much time, just the crude and nude truth.