[nirvAnA]

I dont know why the meany case is being ignored. No one stepping out to do analysis, no one demanding he be brought to justice, people still focusing on attacking evets. I think theres some crazy double standards going on.

whatever the punishment decided for evets, meany has to be punished and even more because he denied it and we want to send the message that denying it shouldn't be rewarded.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

I dont know why the meany case is being ignored. No one stepping out to do analysis, no one demanding he be brought to justice, people still focusing on attacking evets. I think theres some crazy double standards going on.

whatever the punishment decided for evets, meany has to be punished and even more because he denied it and we want to send the message that denying it shouldn't be rewarded.

I thought this thread was only in relation to evets, due to the thread title Nirv. Like I said in my previous post, I would support meany getting a substantially harsher punishment due to him denying it. Nemo I do like your idea, thought raising $200 might even be worse than a 6 month ban! :-p

[NvRossi]

What are the admins views on Meanys case? i say ban him from tournaments for 6 months too

[Peleus]

I'd have to agree with him going up on the cheaters wall - It was pretty clear map hacking imo.

[Strafe]

Receiving coaching from a self admitted maphacker must be awesome. I bet everyone is dying to have him tell you where to look for and how to not get caught.

Quick Comments

	NvRossi:	ROFL well said
	NvJazBas:
	mGMUSE:	being a manipulative bitch seems like a useful skill toi have in poker
	nirvAnA:	I like the strafe two posts down more
	Rage:
	TCPKiaSu:

[Rockstar]

This issue has really been pissing me off lately. My tongues been somewhat tied on the issue for obvious reasons but now there's all this talk of reform and rehabilitation, giving back to the community etc. etc. and It's just.... pissing me off.

I have but one question.....

WHY the **** are we even contemplating rehabilitation and reformation. This is absolutely ridiculous. It truly is. Hacking is the single worst thing that you can do in this community... The only thing every person on this site has in common is the desire to play Starcraft 2. Blatantly cheating at it disrespects every single individual that has ever bothered to make an account on this website. We are not a conglomeration of saints put here to reform people back into our community. We shouldn't be welcoming anyone who cheats back into the community with open arms. It's absolutely ridiculous. They have cheated every single person here... Every ******* one of you... They've lied to your face, they've chuckled behind your backs... They're probably flickin their bean over the thread right now having a good old laugh before they can rejoin the community and not get -->caught<-- hacking again...

Starcraft 2 isn't just some bullshit game on the internet... It's a strategic free thinking mechanical battle of the wits. This game combines so many valued abilities... It's the equivelant of playing chess with 6 grams up your nose.

I'm not the best SC2 player in the world... I don't compete in the GM league and dedicate hours upon hours of my time to becoming the best... But there's a lot of you that do... These cheating scumbags have blatantly robbed you... You may not even know it... Every one of you think back to when you last played one of these hackers... Did you lose? were you pissed off? did they make you ragequit? did you just know something wasn't right... That you lost even though you knew you should have won?? was it enjoyable for you to lose a game you should never have lost? Did it make you want to get up and start playing again? or just turn the game off and go do something else?

Hacking is just cheap laughs at someone elses expense... These people are all laughing at you. Whether you thought they were your friend or not, they're laughing their asses off... at you.

I can understand that some people may feel attached to these people. They might have been your friend for a long ass time... a good bloke.... That doesn't change the fact they're pissing themselves laughing at you.

This is a very very silly precedent to set. It's just giving a massive thumbs up to anyone who would even consider using hacks.

Quick Comments

	FaDeBadger:	Take deep breath, calm down, then realise everyone deserves a second chance
	Meatex:	take some time to go back and re-read my reasoning behind his punishment. then talk to me if you still have doubts
	mGMUSE:	very true, respect
	TCPKiaSu:
	TAScarecrow:
	fray`Alpha:

[Strafe]

Even though I sort of agree with the message of your post I think you bring it way too harsh. Chill out a bit and realize Starcraft 2 is still foremost a game played for fun. Of course there are going to be some that cheat and they completely kill the fair competition factor and should be ostracized for it. However, I wouldn't go as far as saying they are the scum of the earth.

I'm sure somewhere deep down theres a chance that Evets regrets what he did. He isn't necessarily laughing at our expense. It may very well be that he feels like a dumb dick now and there should be at least the option of him coming back somewhere in the future. Just not the near future imo.

Quick Comments

	Nemo:	+1
	Maynarde:	Well said
	EveMassacrisM:	Is that rly u Strafe :)
	nirvAnA:	Now this is the strafe i know!
	wolf:	<3

[nirvAnA]

SC2SEA's Official Stance on Map Hackers

1. Banned for all SC2SEA tournaments for a period of 6 months.
2. Community work aka "good behavior" introduces the possibility of "parole" which will reduce the sentence by 1-3 months.
3. They will still be allowed to participate in the forums as that will be necessary for their community work.
4. Repeat offenders caught will be banned for life from the site completely, no exceptions.
5. Should they try to circumvent the ban in anyway or join our tournaments earlier (smurfing), they will be banned for life.

It is important to note that not everyone caught map hacking will necessarily change. Under this system those unrepentant will be fully punished but "reforming" players aware of their mistake who have changed their attitude will not be subjected to the same sentence that the unrepentant offenders receive.

Players who are unrepentant will face the stiffer sentence of 6 months, whereas players who have changed their attitudes and reformed themselves will be given the opportunity to be reintegrated in the community earlier but only after proving the change of their attitude through community work. This is similar to the "good behavior" system that reduces jail sentences in prisons.

Like Nemo says:

"Justice is no vengeance or lynching. It aims at giving a message to everyone that if you're behaving badly you will face harsh consequences but it also aim at reintegrating people in the society and community. Put yourself in his situation, don't think that it can't happen to you. We all have made mistakes in our lives. We would want a second chance if (and when) it happens to us."

Community work will be defined for now as:

• Strategy articles (GM and above)
• Free Coaching for the community (Masters and above)
• Replay Analysis in our Replay Feedback thread
• Contributive / helpful posts on SC2SEA

The 1-3 month reduction of sentence will depend on the individuals performance in the above.

EvetS' ban starts today: 3rd January and will be lifted on the 3rd of July
Keep in mind EvetS never used this in competitions nor played in many tournaments, I believe all he wanted was the respect from having a nice ladder record.

Meany's ban starts today: 3rd January and will be lifted on the 3rd of July
There have been enough analysis from Jazbas, Clan SPR, Nemo, myself and many various other people to conclude that he indeed was hacking.

Quick Comments

	asdfSchnitzel:	+1
	TAXanT:
	wolf:	laying the smackdown
	TAScarecrow:
	Nemo:	I support SC2SEA decision

[nGenLight]

Nemo: Your sentiments means very well and as such is clearly very well respected by the entire community. I am in complete agreeance with most of the things you say about rehabilitation and forgiving etc.

The only thing I'm going to disagree with you is your perception of the level of crime of hacking in SC2. As someone who has spent hours, days, weeks, months, failing uni, losing girlfriends playing the game, my perception of people cheating at the game that I love, that I've spent hours on, and was somewhat financially dependent on, whilst the guy smiled and lied to my face, is going to be very different from yours - This is what you need to understand. As you also may have noticed, the people who were the most outspoken about this are top tier players who are known work horses who'vs spent hours improving at this game just to have some savage use shortcuts to get to where they are via cheating. Just the thought of playing Evets in all those ladder games where he always knew what units I was making and my army position all the time, followed by my level of respect for him in the conversations we have after the games, makes me sick to my stomach. If you were in our shoes, your values may be different, but I cannot speak for you. I only hope that you consider the situation from the perspective of people who are more hurt than you by people (respected members of the community especially) hacking behind your back.

That said, I think the administration team did listen to our cries/whinges of a heavier punishment and have compromised somewhat to an agreeable verdict for all parties. My only concern lies now in exactly what community service he can do for a online community where his credibility won't come into direct conflict with his ability to perform the task - like running bsg tournaments or coaching?

Quick Comments

	x5.Revenant:	Couldn't have said it better
	asdfSchnitzel:
	Nemo:	Thanks heaps for the explanation. It's clearer for me now. :)
	mGMUSE:
	NvJazBas:
	Rage:
	Champi:

[crAzerk]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

My only concern lies now in exactly what community service he can do for a online community where his credibility won't come into direct conflict with his ability to perform the task

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Community work will be defined for now as:
Strategy articles (GM and above)
Free Coaching for the community (Masters and above)
Replay Analysis in our Replay Feedback thread
Contributive / helpful posts on SC2SEA

3 out of 4 in the definition would be fairly credible it seems.

Receiving coaching from a self admitted maphacker must be awesome. I bet everyone is dying to have him tell you where to look for and how to not get caught.

I'll assume Strafe was just kidding and hope noone actually adopts this attitude or makes this 'joke' that will directly hinder the rehabilitation and reformation of evetS.

As Light said, "the administration team did listen to our cries/whinges of a heavier punishment and have compromised somewhat to an agreeable verdict for all parties.", so I hope that everyone will accept this and give him a benefit of a doubt for now - if you're going to continue to weigh on him being a lying cheating bas**** it's not going to help matters at all.

And I completely agree with what Light said about the situation having different impact on different people - I'm not asking you to forgive him immediately or respect him or start thinking well of him - I'm just saying, stop lynching, and give him a chance to prove himself (via community service, etc)

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	Strafe:	Definitely not kidding. See post below

[Rage]

For me its not even the hacking that was the biggest deal to me, but more the constant lying about it.

That is the part that I can't forgive.

By all means lets give him a chance to prove himself in the community, but I, personally, will never believe a damn word he says ever again about anything unless I know it to be true for myself.

[Strafe]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

I'll assume Strafe was just kidding and hope noone actually adopts this attitude or makes this 'joke' that will directly hinder the rehabilitation and reformation of evetS.

Definitely not. You receive coaching in order to become better in a legit way. You want to become better because you love the competition and constantly want to prove yourself and measure yourself against others. The ultimate goal is to lay the smack down upon everyone and earn the mad respect you deserve.

What Evets basically did was say screw all that competition. I'm just going to cheat and pretend I can beat everyone so I get respect from online players even though it's not justified. He basically did everything against the spirit of competition and fair play. It's just wrong on a moral level to have such a player help others compete. By allowing him to coach others you attach a certain kind of credibility to his persona that he just does not deserve at this point. Being a coach, especially at GM level, is a display of a certain status. By making him a coach you will simply convey the wrong message to the community at this point.

It should be made absolutely clear to everyone that what Evets did was wrong and that he's being punished for it. Coaching others just doesn't fit in there at all. He should rehabilitate himself by simply being useful in the community. You shouldn't force him to. Where is the sincerity in that? Over time he himself can prove that he deserves another chance. His punishment for the while being though will be a complete ban from all competition until further notice.

I do respect Nirvana's & co's opinions. They clearly try to resolve this the fairest and best way possible for everyone while listening to everyones comments on the matter and in the end it is their decision+ site. However, I do feel they are way too lenient in this case and basically a bit too soft. But like Light explained this might be, because I actually grind 1000's of games without maphack so everyone taking a short cut is a huge dick in my eyes. I simply can't be bothered too much in this case, because even with maphack Evets won't be able to win anything ever, so he isn't ruining too much.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	my mate robert
	:	missing the point :(
	EveParachute:
	fray`Alpha:

[crAzerk]

You are not understanding my post.

'I'll assume Strafe was just kidding and hope noone actually adopts this attitude or makes this 'joke' that will directly hinder the rehabilitation and reformation of evetS.'

I was referring to your attitude, in your post:

Receiving coaching from a self admitted maphacker must be awesome. I bet everyone is dying to have him tell you where to look for and how to not get caught.

Where you are responding sarcastically to a (potential, if it happens) effort by him to 'redeem' himself.

Well you have made your stance clear about him coaching and I won't contest that, just that I don't agree with a 'lulz he's a hacker let's bring that up and ridicule him' attitude at things that he does (e.g. community service) to 'be useful in the community' as you say.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

Where you are responding sarcastically to an effort by him to 'redeem' himself.

Actually these are all things that other people have suggested for him. He's barely made a peep since being outed... Seems to me he just spends his time playing SC2 on NA and KR..

[ROOTPetraeus]

Wow! Only just read about the commencing bans. Its good to see people taking this stuff seriously

[TCPKiaSu]

@crazerk, I think what strafe is saying is that coaches are like teachers and you usually respect and trust the. personally I wouldn't be that happy if evets coached me because I have no more respect for him anymore and hmm I dunno how to put the feeling in words but I hope u understand. strafe u can correct me if I'm wrong :P

[crAzerk]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Actually these are all things that other people have suggested for him. He's barely made a peep since being outed... Seems to me he just spends his time playing SC2 on NA and KR..

I probably didn't word what I said well enough - I didn't mean he was already starting it and putting it effort ( i hope he does!), I'm saying that IF he does, AND people still talk like that, it would be just unnecessary negativity.
Made a slight edit (the brackets) to my OP to make it clearer.

Originally Posted by TCPDeathwing

@crazerk, I think what strafe is saying is that coaches are like teachers and you usually respect and trust the. personally I wouldn't be that happy if evets coached me because I have no more respect for him anymore and hmm I dunno how to put the feeling in words but I hope u understand. strafe u can correct me if I'm wrong :P

Yup, I get that. I fully acknowledge that having him coach isn't really a good idea because he has little credibility now. I've already mentioned this above when I was going through the list of 4 Community Service activities.


To reiterate my point:
IF etevS does indeed commence his community work and works to be a useful contributor here (I'm not talking specifically about coaching), we need to stop hurling this negativity his way whether it is sarcasm, ridicule, or despise.
A simple example, if he writes a replay analysis, and if someone replies it with 'lulz what would you know you use maphack', that would be unnecessary negativity.

Quick Comments

	TCPKiaSu:
	PiG:
	FlashVeno:
	asdfSchnitzel:

[mGGDaedalus]

Originally Posted by Strafe

Definitely not. You receive coaching in order to become better in a legit way. You want to become better because you love the competition and constantly want to prove yourself and measure yourself against others. The ultimate goal is to lay the smack down upon everyone and earn the mad respect you deserve.

What Evets basically did was say screw all that competition. I'm just going to cheat and pretend I can beat everyone so I get respect from online players even though it's not justified. He basically did everything against the spirit of competition and fair play. It's just wrong on a moral level to have such a player help others compete. By allowing him to coach others you attach a certain kind of credibility to his persona that he just does not deserve at this point. Being a coach, especially at GM level, is a display of a certain status. By making him a coach you will simply convey the wrong message to the community at this point.

It should be made absolutely clear to everyone that what Evets did was wrong and that he's being punished for it. Coaching others just doesn't fit in there at all. He should rehabilitate himself by simply being useful in the community. You shouldn't force him to. Where is the sincerity in that? Over time he himself can prove that he deserves another chance. His punishment for the while being though will be a complete ban from all competition until further notice.

I do respect Nirvana's & co's opinions. They clearly try to resolve this the fairest and best way possible for everyone while listening to everyones comments on the matter and in the end it is their decision+ site. However, I do feel they are way too lenient in this case and basically a bit too soft. But like Light explained this might be, because I actually grind 1000's of games without maphack so everyone taking a short cut is a huge dick in my eyes. I simply can't be bothered too much in this case, because even with maphack Evets won't be able to win anything ever, so he isn't ruining too much.

I think one thing to keep in mind is how hard it will be for evets to actually fulfill his community service requirements. It's hard enough for the top dogs to actually get a solid coaching schedule (Pig stands out as one of the most successful), but with his now soiled reputation people are going to be even less likely to look to him for coaching. He will have to put in the work to advertise and source students, convince them he can help them improve, and then put in the time and effort to actually coach them well enough that they give him positive feedback. All the while not getting paid.

Hell, he might not even bother with it if it seems too hard, and if that's the case it will tell us a great deal about his character (or rather, lack of improvement to it). But if he is determined enough to try and earn back the community's acceptance and do his time then I don't see why we shouldn't let him try.

Quick Comments

Nemo:

+1

[FaDeEvetS]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Actually these are all things that other people have suggested for him. He's barely made a peep since being outed... Seems to me he just spends his time playing SC2 on NA and KR..

except for the 2-3 times that i've stated in this thread (and more times to individuals) that I fully intend to come back and attempt to fix things, however i'm staying out of the e-drama until the IRL issues/dramas are dealt with, so as to not bring that here more and make things worse. The admins have on multiple occasions said 'this is the punishment, stop talking about it until further things occur' - hate me all you want but if this wis what the sc2sea admins state..

Hopefully this will be the last time i have to say, i'm fully intending on working on this but would rather work on real issues first.

Quick Comments

	Rage:	It's not a real issue?
	TCPKiaSu:	countering rage -1

[TCPKiaSu]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

To reiterate my point:
IF etevS does indeed commence his community work and works to be a useful contributor here (I'm not talking specifically about coaching), we need to stop hurling this negativity his way whether it is sarcasm, ridicule, or despise.
A simple example, if he writes a replay analysis, and if someone replies it with 'lulz what would you know you use maphack', that would be unnecessary negativity.

also just saying about this matter, people shouldn't immediately flame someone if he or she DOES do that because not everyone can forgive so fast and some people will take this more seriously from other past experiences and what they have been through with hackers.