[yamite]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

I got into diamond with 11-0. I blame good players like Bull and Ninpo in my division for being inactive!

lol I thought that even if suddenly your division was filled with Azz/Nirvana level players the system still considers the division to be F rank so its better for you they aren't active so you can keep #1 easy?

Also, about the top 200 thing, I checked the TW server top 200 (http://tw.battle.net/sc2/zh/blog/147660#comments).... and #189 (lovecd) is in PLATINUM. There are also a lot of sub 1k diamond players on their top 200 list.

So what's the reason for that? Seems weird especially since there are these division modifiers yet there is a guy with 2.3k diamond (1st comment) who isn't top 200 on TW.

I know that this isn't entirely related to SEA, but I was hoping this would help Edge and others who are trying to decrypt blizzard's crappy system

[Edrahil]

Actually, how I think it works is, new divisions open up as the old ones fill up. So it is not so much that those divisions are better, just that you are in a newer division. The point boost is given to the newer divisions I presume to help balance the point totals of the old division, which would be needed if everyone played just as much and as consistently.

Of course the above is merely what appears to be happening, a reason for that could be that everyone promotes to diamond fast without much history and thus the newly promoted diamond players are always ranked lower than currently established players, and since the only way to move between divisions is to promote or demote, you don't see any movement.

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

I got into diamond with 11-0. I blame good players like Bull and Ninpo in my division for being inactive!

Well shit, I've no idea then I got into B-rank with 17-7, so maybe the period when you reached diamond matters somewhat as well. Does the TL thread mention that anywhere?

JP's right though, having a lower-tier div just means you have inflated points to look awesome, but doesn't hinder you in terms of total points gained for top 200.

[TAEdgE]

You can't get in to diamond without a loss at least Light o.o?

I'm pretty sure it's 5 losses to gain a trust factor. Most people get in around 17-6 or so, and some players go like 35 wins and advance (these players are the ones that normally are in a higher division, due to losing alot of points.. well that's part of it.)

If you really were 11-0, maybe that's why you got F-Rank. who knows.

[yamite]

Originally Posted by EdgE

You can't get in to diamond without a loss at least Light o.o?

I'm pretty sure it's 5 losses to gain a trust factor. Most people get in around 17-6 or so, and some players go like 35 wins and advance (these players are the ones that normally are in a higher division, due to losing alot of points.. well that's part of it.)

If you really were 11-0, maybe that's why you got F-Rank. who knows.

Nah you don't have to lose a game to get diamond (at least for 2v2/3v3/4v4). There are teams out there who are 78-0 in diamond 4v4.

I think Light was just beating scrubs so he got F-rank division lol, or all the other people in his division were bad before Light joined and somehow there was space so he got stuffed in.

[nGenLight]

I think what Edrahil said makes the most sense, new divisons are created when older ones are formed. The older divisions will naturally have higher points and will be in a higher league rank.

Pinder: But the MMR match making has nothing to do with what division you are in. If I was in a S ranked division, I still vs the same opponents and lose/win the same points but will require 3xx less points to be in the top 200 position I am now. The problem with the top 200 is that players like yourself and Edge simply cannot earn enough points cause of your high MMR, activeness on the ladder plays a big role too. I'm winning mor than 70% of my games these days but the -20s just hurt ridiculously.

It was a long time ago but I'm pretty sure I got to diamond in the 1x wins, maybe a loss or two, but I was just suggesting how they dont put you in divisions base on mmr or win%, but on a chronological order.

[Dogsi]

Originally Posted by EdgE

You can't get in to diamond without a loss at least Light o.o?

I'm pretty sure it's 5 losses to gain a trust factor. Most people get in around 17-6 or so, and some players go like 35 wins and advance (these players are the ones that normally are in a higher division, due to losing alot of points.. well that's part of it.)

If you really were 11-0, maybe that's why you got F-Rank. who knows.

Not at all. I went 5-0 placement. 2 plat matches. Promoted to diamond.

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

I think what Edrahil said makes the most sense, new divisons are created when older ones are formed. The older divisions will naturally have higher points and will be in a higher league rank.

Originally Posted by Excalibur_Z on TL

New divisions of all tiers -- even S-Rank ones -- are created all the time. I really need to update the OP and spell out for people that the ages of the divisions are completely irrelevant because for some strange reason people aren't understanding.

A lot of this discussion has been covered.

[nGenLight]

I'm going to take a stab at this.

From what I presume divisional class is based on the average mmr of the players, and since movement across diamond divisions does not happen, if that division is filled then new players cannot join that division, so new divisions are formed and/or incomplete ones are filled, in that case age of divisions do play an indirect factor. Anyways not going to try to understand this anymore, merry xmas!

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

Anyways not going to try to understand this anymore, merry xmas!

Good call. I wish Bliz would just make the information public so we didn't have to slam our heads into it trying to figure this stuff out.

Merry Christmas to all.

[Dogsi]

Originally Posted by Xeen

Good call. I wish Bliz would just make the information public so we didn't have to slam our heads into it trying to figure this stuff out.

Merry Christmas to all.

Why do you need to figure it out? You get to the top the same either way... play and win games...

Merry Christmas to you too!

[Xeen]

You don't see a point in understanding how the game handles the ranking of players?

I'm really not sure how to reply.

[Dogsi]

You can't pick who you play and knowing how it determines the ranks doesn't improve your chance of winning at all. So, no, not really.

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Dogsi

You can't pick who you play and knowing how it determines the ranks doesn't improve your chance of winning at all. So, no, not really.

Simplistic. You might argue that having rankings is pointless altogether, then.

We have rankings so that we have a general scale of how players compare, for players of all levels. The entire reason for division structure is so that people can feel progress, can feel like they've improved or have a degree of competition when they're not players who can play tournaments. If ranking is not entirely transparent in terms of how it is done, it is good for the community to figure it out, because it matters to people.

[Dogsi]

Originally Posted by Xeen

Simplistic. You might argue that having rankings is pointless altogether, then.

We have rankings so that we have a general scale of how players compare, for players of all levels. The entire reason for division structure is so that people can feel progress, can feel like they've improved or have a degree of competition when they're not players who can play tournaments. If ranking is not entirely transparent in terms of how it is done, it is good for the community to figure it out, because it matters to people.

There is a use to having rankings.

Again, you didn't address how it is useful. But I don't feel like arguing :-P I think it's an interesting piece of trivia that has no bearing on the game itself :-P

[DsDxiaohao]

Originally Posted by Xeen

Simplistic. You might argue that having rankings is pointless altogether, then.

We have rankings so that we have a general scale of how players compare, for players of all levels. The entire reason for division structure is so that people can feel progress, can feel like they've improved or have a degree of competition when they're not players who can play tournaments. If ranking is not entirely transparent in terms of how it is done, it is good for the community to figure it out, because it matters to people.

simple, if one feel that one should be in the top 200 and not there, go msg the person whoever you feel should replace, for a personal best of 7 and claim your bragging rights, and a round of applause from the good pple of sc2sea.

[Ryukku]

i like to see the system as a simple one... win more = higher placed. play more + consistent = higher position. ill leave all the theorycrafting to you guys kaka..

haha im actually glad im not top tier in SEA. gives me a little of excitement when i still see some players as favored. cant imagine how its like for top 5... everyone would be unfavored lolol or even at most.

its strange how i only played one game this week and i won against a favored player and i went up in the top200... lolol

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Dogsi

There is a use to having rankings.

Yes. One of the main concepts of having a ranking system is that it ranks things on clearly-known criteria, otherwise it's obscure and pointless. As it stands, we don't know all of these criteria as to how the division sorting system works. Does Light know why he's in an E-rank division, artificially boosting his points? Could people be potentially annoyed that they're ranked below people with lower visible rankings? Or that, upon reaching silver, their points seem to disappear while their friend's go up?

Revealing the algorithms is not important, but coming out to say 'players are arranged into divisions in XYZ manner' would clarify a lot. People like to understand how things work, I'm stunned that this needs explanation.

Please also note that rankings have implications, specifically when it comes to playing for Code A qualifications, or Master League, or who knows what else may come up.

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

Pinder: But the MMR match making has nothing to do with what division you are in. If I was in a S ranked division, I still vs the same opponents and lose/win the same points but will require 3xx less points to be in the top 200 position I am now. The problem with the top 200 is that players like yourself and Edge simply cannot earn enough points cause of your high MMR, activeness on the ladder plays a big role too. I'm winning mor than 70% of my games these days but the -20s just hurt ridiculously.

afaik it's not actually the players own 'mmr', which gives you 'favoured' or 'unfavoured' etc. It's simply your points (As taken using division modifiers) vs their mmr, however the points automatically add your bonus pool.

so for example, say someone is sitting at 2k right now with a 1k bonus pool, and they play someone with an mmr equivilant of 3k, they would get 'teams even' for that fight.

if someones sitting at like 1.5k and like 1.7k bonus pool, and they play an mmr player of like 2.9k, the 1.5k player will be favoured, meaning that it becomes incredibly difficult to climb the ladder in this spot, because you simply have a high enough rating + bonus pool, that you're favoured vs 90% of people you play against, this is my personal understanding of why some of us struggle to get rid of our bonus pools, it actually has nothing to do with our mmr, infact if our mmr was lower, causing us to rank against lower ranked players (since it's only mmr that decides who you play), it would make it EVEN harder to climb the ladder unless you lose a LOT in order to drag your points all the way down too.

Either way, im 99% sure it's just as easy for a person in an F-rank division to get #1 in top 200 as it is for an S-class division. You have to get 'more points', but like i said, the points 100% come easier to you, since your 'true' rating is actually in no way harder to obtain than their 'true rating', it just shows misc different modifiers because blizzard likes to make the system needlessly complicated.


feel free to skip what i read down here unless you disagree with my rating vs mmr theory on how it decides who's favoured etc:

Just for an extra example of why i think the system works on the basis that i described above (which in short is, to match you up against a similar opponent, it will match two people of equal mmr, regardless of points/division etc.) For anyone that played when the game was first released (and was at all good), i'm sure you'll remember how everyone was like "Wtf not favoured against everyone yet im like 30-4 stats?" and people where like "How can we have a game where we're both seeing the opponent as heavily favoured against one another, this makes no sense!?!?!?". In the way i described, it makes PERFECT sense, and it would almost be silly any other way.

Say the ladder is just released, me and moonglade are both 10-0 and bump into each other on ladder, lets say i have 400 points and he has 400 points, both still platinum, however our MMR's are through the roof since we literally haven't lost a game and have been stomping other people who would also have much higher MMR's than points at this stage, so as in an example we will say our MMR's are both 1000.

for me: I have 400 points, his MMR is 1000 points, he i see him as heavily favoured.
for him: he has 400 points, and my MMR is 1000 points, so he sees me as heavily favoured.

So why the hell isnt this stupid? Because both of our MMR's are really high, we should by the ladder's standards be at those points, and it's mega unfair to punish either of us harshly for losing a game to someone with 1000 MMR when we're only at 400 rating ourselves, so we get a ton of points to quickly boost us up to our appropriate rating if we win, and we won't lose barely anything if we lose since we only have 400 rating and the person we lost to is a 1000 MMR player anyway.

edit: this also explains how, for example, moonglade can smurf his way into NA top 20 in under like 150 games, because his MMR is so high so quick since he is allergic to losing, he's instantly playing people at like 3k rating even when he's still really low rating, however he's constantly seeing them as the heavy favourites, giving him a ton of points when he wins, and the occasional games where he loses, he loses very few.

[nGenLight]

Everything makes more sense now, thanx Johnno.