[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

Xeen,

He clearly stated that he built loads of mutas just to see his opp build archons that (!) counter mutas. He lost his army, tried to rebuild, but had no macro to support tech switch. So he is asking about whether his initial tactics was correct.

If you can build loads of mutas (and let your turtling opponent get 4500 gas of archons), you should definitely have both the map control and gas income to produce more than 4 infestors. Somewhere in there is a serious macro error.

[Muldeh]

Yeah my macro was definitely lacking. However I have improved it a bit I'd say.. my last games I had 20-30 infestors out by the time my opponent had archons, and I had a decent roach army to back it up. Perhaps I have just been playing weaker opponents, but regardless I have improved.

Thanks for the comments.

PS: About scouting, I find it hard to scout for archons, simply because they are formed from templar, which have their own uses. My opponent in the game I talked about in my original post had gone for DTs to harrass, which killed my third as I didn't scout it until the DTs were almost at me.

(That's an issue in itself, the question here being, should I always sacrifice a slow overlord for extra scouting before I get lair, or should I get lair earlier than I normally do just for overlord speed? My usual build has me scouting with a fast overlord between the 9 and 10 minute mark, which i think it a little late for stuff like DTs.)

Of course once I had detection he kept making DTs and morphed them to archons. I knew he was able to make archons, but I didn't know that he would.

[SLCN.Kez]

always sac a slow overlord around 5 mins to see waht is up, also, have a ling or 2 poke up his ramp to count the amount of sentries at the front, any less than 4-5 at around 5-6-7 mins and he is going somethign tech based, with the advantage being spores will do well against both his tech options being dt's and void rays. After this i prefer to get an overseer and drop a changeling to scout when my lair is done as opposed to getting ovie speed (depending which tactic i choose to use) but this is purely a stylistic choice and both will work just fine.
As for the issue of weather or not he will choose to make archons or simply keep making dt's it can be hard to tell, the thing you have to look out for is his stalker count and if you scout a robo or not, and also how quickly he attempts to take his third. If i see a toss trying to take a relatively quick third (around 11 mins to about 13 mins) AND i dont see a robo then i assume he is going zealot archon, or mass blink stalker, but if you did what i said above and look for stalker count then it will be obvious if he is going blink stalkers or zealot/archon. But like others have said, if you're in silver league like 99% of games are won purely because of macro as opposted to actual unit compositions etc. That being said, if i see zealot archon i dont actually change my unit combination from ling/bling/infestor, i merely invest a lil bit more gas into getting out ultras much quicker, taking 4 bases pretty quick(around 13-15 mins) and trying to prevent his third. Hope this helps

[iVnStinger]

Damn man... I suck at ZvT but ZvP isn't that hard imo. You just need to keep scouting them to see if they attack, make ALOT of drones. Like literally, if they aren't pushing out, just make drones. Until eventually you've got your 3 saturated bases and by then if you constantly make units as well you should have a decent sized army. Then just max out and push to kill them. Well atleast this is what I do and it works. (Plat zerg as well)

[Muldeh]

I beat gold terrans consistently, it was just silver protoss I was losing to, but now I think I have it sorted.

Edit: And ZvZ was my best matchup but I see very very few zergs on ladder these days. At silver/gold level anyway.

[Eldrid]

Roach/infestor does well vs all strats/builds, from 9min 6gate pushes, 2base 4-5 collossi pushes (quite rare now-a-days, but still around) to blink stalker to stalker immortal. With proper scouting you can add lings vs the unit comps where you need to, or corruptors against deathball, but roach infestor can easily be your 'core' units in every ZvP.

Against zealot/archon you should attack with your roaches, move back a bit, attack again, rinse and repeat, this way only the zealots can attack, archons don't get many hits in at all as they are slower than roach. Also if you fungal the archon / zealot ball, then roaches can attack while being out of range of the archons attacks.

Quick Comments

PiG:

Amen to that brutha

[Infetrix]

hello, i have a quick question aLt PiG how do you do the all in 'drone drill' im struggling zvp atm and am looking to new solutions such as all ins it would be much appreciated if you could message me

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Infetrix

hello, i have a quick question aLt PiG how do you do the all in 'drone drill' im struggling zvp atm and am looking to new solutions such as all ins it would be much appreciated if you could message me

If you're struggling in a matchup, learning all-ins is the last thing you should be doing... it'll ensure you don't actually improve in knowing how to play Starcraft.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[Trusty]

Originally Posted by Xeen

If you're struggling in a matchup, learning all-ins is the last thing you should be doing... it'll ensure you don't actually improve in knowing how to play Starcraft.

Not entirely true - if you're struggling with an MU, it can be good to spam a 1 or 2 base all-in build for a while.

it gives you:
a) practice with the build
b) give you some confidence back

Easily 99% of the people on the ladder can't execute a 1-2 base all-in perfectly. So it's not exactly going to hurt you to practice it. Of course, if you KEEP doing it, and don't eventually go back to playing standard, then you're in trouble.

[ProAnnn]

Originally Posted by Trusty

Not entirely true - if you're struggling with an MU, it can be good to spam a 1 or 2 base all-in build for a while.

it gives you:
a) practice with the build
b) give you some confidence back

Easily 99% of the people on the ladder can't execute a 1-2 base all-in perfectly. So it's not exactly going to hurt you to practice it. Of course, if you KEEP doing it, and don't eventually go back to playing standard, then you're in trouble.

Only applies to protoss. It is always better to not allin as zerg since their allin are literally allinnish and have no transition at all

[Meatex]

I believe he means where you stack all your drones so they look like 1 drone going in for a scout
your can click the opponents mineral line and the drones will go straight through the zealot
Usually have an "accidentally" sacced overlord to draw away his first sentry

Im not 100% but i think its 10 pool get up to 14 drones then follow up with nothing but lings
You stack drones by sending one drone to build a gas then grab all your drones and spam click 2 close patches one after the other then quickly click the extractor BEFORE its finished and when they are all bunched up click opponents mineral line and nothing else

Timing is really important this is one with a very small window
good luck

[JuN]

ahahaha oh wow this drone drill all-in sounds like great fun for playing inhouse with friends. any replays of this strat or more specific timings?

[DemisodaSPR]

Scout and hard counter.. There is a grey area before overlord speed but you can usually get by by observing his natural chrono allocation, his building wallin composition, the timing on his 3rd and 4th gas, how sentry heavy he's going, whether a warpin round is being unused, when he changes from sentry warpins to stalker, et cetera. You can usually figure out quite a narrow range because you should already know the buildings in his main at the time of nexus.

[c_kAelle]

reading this thread. zvp is my worst matchup and i need to get improving on it.