[Apth]

Originally Posted by Silver Pharaoh

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=322

Hi all. I was wondering if anyone could comment on my play...like location to spread ovies and timing attacks and how to prevent my slaughter in this match up. Or even where should I gather my units.

When your opponent doom-dropped your main, you just a-moved your units at your base, and they walked into his tanks and marines in a big slaughtery conga-line.

This is why you lost.

Never attack from one angle - run your lings around the side a bit, get a few attacking the tanks, get a decent concave with your Roaches.

Group up your units before you engage.

That said, your response to that 1base all-in crap was correct - take another expansion, macro up like a demon, and giggle. If you had handled that doom-drop correctly, you would have easily crushed your opponent immediately afterward.

[Paroxysm]

Would someone please be able to analyse this replay. It is a ZvP that i recently played, however I did win. I figure that I'm only in diamond and there is still plenty of room for improvement, and I am getting to the stage where I need to pick apart the little things to make my play style far stronger. I will probably be posting here a lot more frequently in the future for help with analysing these replays and everyone who helps is quite simply amazing . The game is located here: http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=357

Thank you to everyone who helps

Paroxysm.

[Paroxysm]

If possible, would someone also be able to look at this replay:

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=358

[iMSystem]

I'll have a look at them tomorrow Paro and do a write up for ya

Unless someone else gets it done before.

[Apth]

Originally Posted by Paroxysm

The game is located here: http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=357

Yeah, you smashed him pretty hard. Coupla things -

I would have liked to have seen some early pokes and prods/map control with your lings. Better to have them keep your opponent on your toes and keep you aware of where your opponents army is than just have them sitting in your base.

I'd also think about where you keep your army while you're not doing anything with it, especially against Protoss - sitting your Roaches in that big wide open space would have made his forcefields a lot less effective when you engaged.

Originally Posted by Paroxysm

If possible, would someone also be able to look at this replay:

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=358

Bulletpoints!

• Upgrades were a little later than they could have been
• Forgot 3/3 later in the game
• Creep spread wasn't really there
• Lost a lot of Mutas to Thors in the second to last big engagement because of a lack of magic box
• Possibly a transition to BL/Ultra might have won you the game sooner?

Nice game though dude

[Paroxysm]

Originally Posted by Apth

Yeah, you smashed him pretty hard. Coupla things -

I would have liked to have seen some early pokes and prods/map control with your lings. Better to have them keep your opponent on your toes and keep you aware of where your opponents army is than just have them sitting in your base.

I'd also think about where you keep your army while you're not doing anything with it, especially against Protoss - sitting your Roaches in that big wide open space would have made his forcefields a lot less effective when you engaged.



Bulletpoints!

• Upgrades were a little later than they could have been
• Forgot 3/3 later in the game
• Creep spread wasn't really there
• Lost a lot of Mutas to Thors in the second to last big engagement because of a lack of magic box
• Possibly a transition to BL/Ultra might have won you the game sooner?

Nice game though dude

For game 1, I will focus on trying to get better unit placement across the map. When you say pokes and prods what do you mean specifically? Should i be trying ling run bys or just running up the ramp and attacking his front buildings before retreating?

In game 2, what is a good time to start the first upgrades? I'm going to look at how to magic box right now on youtube because i've never tried it :S

Thanks heaps Apth!

[Apth]

Originally Posted by Paroxysm

For game 1, I will focus on trying to get better unit placement across the map. When you say pokes and prods what do you mean specifically? Should i be trying ling run bys or just running up the ramp and attacking his front buildings before retreating?

In game 2, what is a good time to start the first upgrades? I'm going to look at how to magic box right now on youtube because i've never tried it :S

Thanks heaps Apth!

When I say pokes and prods, I mean putting pressure on your opponent, whether that amounts to damage or not.

Run your lings at his base, attack whatever isn't defended, get into his mineral line if you can. Your goal isn't to do significant damage, your goal is to
A) Scout
B) Make your opponent hesitant to leave his base

With your upgrades, you generally get them
A) As part of a timing attack, ie have Roach Speed and +1 Range finish at the same time
B) When you have enough units that it would be beneficial
C) If you have spare gas and no larva to use up

I'm a huge fan of upgrades, and get them as quickly as possible - watching +1 lings tear through unupgraded lings makes me a happy panda.

Quick Comments

Paroxysm:

Thanks heaps! This information is so helpful!

[ToR.Arnor]

here's my first win

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=359

any feedback (both good things and bad things) would be helpful

clearly I need to become more methodical with my game plan

I was originally going 3-rax but abandoned it because he seemed to be doing something similar. was going Hellions the right move?

[Apth]

Originally Posted by Chris@CityHunter

here's my first win

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=359

any feedback (both good things and bad things) would be helpful

clearly I need to become more methodical with my game plan

I was originally going 3-rax but abandoned it because he seemed to be doing something similar. was going Hellions the right move?

Nice win

I'll leave comments about your unit composition to the helpful Terran players of SC2SEA. A couple of things from my perspective:

Queuing Units
Don't do it. This is a habit you should break as early as possible. Only have as many units in the queue as that structure can produce - ie, 2 for a Reactor Barracks, 1 for a Tech Lab factory. It's OK to queue units up if the unit you're producing is almost done, but queuing up lots of units gives you the false impression that you're macroing correctly.

Scouting
Another good habit to get into. This doesn't necessarily entail knowing what tech path your opponent is taking, but having good map vision and knowing how many bases your opponent has is a good place to start.

Hotkeys
Hotkeys are the easiest way to remember to do everything at once. Hotkey your units, hotkey your production structures, hotkey all your Command Centers. Cycle through your hotkeys like you're on crack.

Unit hotkey - Are my units in a good position? Could I be moving them somewhere? Could I be poking at my opponent a little bit?

Command Center hotkey - do I have enough energy to drop a MULE? Yes? Drop a MULE. Am I making an SCV? No? Make an SCV.

Production Structure hotkey - are all my structures producing units? No? Make some units.

Hope that helps

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[Nemo]

I watched your replay. I understand you just begin ladder. So you must focus now on the basics.

* Never forget to make scvs at the beginning of the game (and until you have all your bases saturated (it is when you get your mineral line really crowded)). Your opponent was at 15, you were still at 10.
* To begin, always do that : Depot / barracks / refinery Asap while barracks put 3 guys on it / Orbital Command THEN 1 marine THEN another depot. You never cut SCV during the process
* After you either go for factory (1-1-1) or more barracks and Lab or 1 Rax expand
* Follow enemy scout in your base with a SCV. If the guy builds a barrack and a bunker in your base you will loose
* Always expand before 10 min mark (and then another one roughly every 5-10 minutes). You need to learn to macro.
* A general rule : Every building you make must produce at all time. If your resources still increase following that rule, add more buildings (expand, barracks, turrets if minerals go to high, factory, Starport tech structure if too much gas).
* To do that here are my shortcuts that are efficient for a low APM player (as I am) : Army 1, specific units 2 and 3 (banshees, hellions, ghosts), 0 Ravens, 5 CC OC and PF (call mules, scans, make SCV), 6 All barracks, 7 All factories, 8 All starports, 9 All upgrade structures (very important to begin infantry upgardes soon make attack 1, then defense 1 etc.), EDIT : 4 for a bunch of SCVs in your main to build structures faster with them (shift construct buildings with this group and shift click a mineral, they will construct their structures and go back to mine after).
* Army composition, Generally make marines, marauders, sieged tanks, Medivacs and some viking you will be OK most of the time until silver. Hellions, Ghosts, banshees, Raven, Thors are less easy units to use at first. BC could be good in Bronze but you won't use them much after. Thors are generally good against Zerg
* Your opponent was slightly better than you (congrats for the win ;-) ), I would say high Bronze or Silver.

Continue the good work. You weren't floating to much resources that is good. You will learn better scouting in a second time.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[SanYu]

Originally Posted by Apth

For a lot of that game, you had almost 90 harvesters on 2 mining bases. Your opponent had 50 harvesters on 2 mining bases.

Whenever you engaged, the supply count was fairly even - but you had an extra 40 supply in harvesters, so his army was actually a lot bigger than yours.

Your army composition wasn't bad actually, but I would have skipped the Zealots and Void Rays. Stalker/Collossus balls are nice, and Phoenixes to soak Corruptor hits (which they did) are handy.

TL;DR - Probes != Macro.

Thx for the response....

[Nemo]

Paroxysm,
I watch your ZvT replay.
I'm at the 8min30sec mark and your opponent destroyed 1.000 more resources than you did, it's hard to recover from that.
The Terran is still on one base at that moment and you should know that his attack will be a all-in since if he doesn't make huge damages he had lost at this point. You should have played safer instead of droning like you did. Make 2 more queens (they are good overall to defend banshees, marines, hellions, makes creep) and 2 preventive spines at the top of your natural ramp.

You made 4 spore crawlers at you main that's at least 2 more than what is needed and none at your natural. Had the banshees hit there you were in bad shape too. Queens are better defense against banshees. They are more mobile, they can heal other queens, defend against ground attacks and make creep when idle. Spore are mainly here to detect them and make interdiction zones where your drones and queen can have shelter.

When the hellions got out of his base you sent your glings to the rocks for the third letting them make huge damages to your drones. You also launched your spine too late.

Well your mutas and banelings get you back in the game (zerg so imba lol (joking of course)). You forgot to put your macro hatch in your hatch shortcuts. No queen for it neither.

After both of your and your opponent's APM and multitask are saturated and there is no much to say because it was more reflexes moves than cold headed strategy. Maybe don't make too many banelings and try to never let your mutas unattended in battle, they melt like snow sunbathing.

Overall very pleasant game, you were better at macro and your opponent was great at dropping. I had a good time watching it. ;-)

[EveMassacrisM]

Here's a replay of me playing ZvP

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/9491

Typical Zerg problem. I hit max, outmacroed my opponent then he just turtled and made deathball. I couldn't attack because he would just roll me over due to the beautiful map design not allowing me to regroup from the hatches. What could I have done ?

[Apth]

Originally Posted by MassacrisM

Here's a replay of me playing ZvP

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/9491

Typical Zerg problem. I hit max, outmacroed my opponent then he just turtled and made deathball. I couldn't attack because he would just roll me over due to the beautiful map design not allowing me to regroup from the hatches. What could I have done ?

IMO this came down to positioning during that last engagement at 21min. Your concave was about the same size as his, but he had Collossus, so his heavy hitters were able to engage while half your Hydras were stuck behind the rest of your army.

You had a lot of space toward the top of the engagement, and were stuck against a cliff at the bottom. I think if you had moved half your forces up a bit, so your concave was larger than his and all your units were engaging, you would have ripped through the Stalkers fast enough that it would have been a relatively even engagement.

I know exactly what you mean about reinforcing from hatches on Shakuras though, it's annoying as hell.

Edit: As an afterthought, maybe you could have abused the immobility of the Collossus deathball with Nydus/Drops? Not sure about that one though.

[Nemo]

I watched your replay. Here are some thoughts I had about it:
* Before the last battle in the middle of the map he had 126 food for his army, you had 96+2 coming. A Toss Army will be already stronger at equivalent food. If you have 30 less, I think it's hopeless. I used the Ctrl+A (on querty, I think, its army and peons on 2 bars)
* I saw you had 106 food of workers and queens at certain time (that include 2 food for each of your 8 queens), is it not too much ? Most zerg I see often have 80-90 when at max I think. You transformed rightly 9 of them into spine crawlers just before the last battle (to be at 92 food of workers and queens) but it was too late, it was over before they could be transformed.
* As for army composition, as Idra whined about it many times, Deathball is hard to stop just with roach, Hydras and corruptors even at equivalent food. I think Infestor and Broodlord do very well agaisnt a Deathball without storm. Stalkers fungaled can't blink to attack the broodlords and then they can do their job more easily.
* Muta Harass : I think that on Shakuras with the 3 bases he took, the hardest base to defend for Toss is the main because the army will likely be between the natural and 3rd, it's a long way to the main. There's only the Phoenixes to defend. About that, are mutas that good against them ? I'm not expert of this opposition.

I was very impressed by your oustanding defense of his early air pressure. You killed far more resources than he did. Your macro, upgrades was top notch too. Nothing to say about it.

Hope at least one of this thoughts might be useful. Cheers ! ;-)

[TragicHero]

Here's a replay of me playing a usual PvT. I seem to find it hard to handle multiple drops. In this replay, I get dropped in 2 different positions and also face his units at the bottom of my ramp. Any tips on what I can do better? Also I find it hard to put pressure on the T as most of them puts up like 3 bunkers at their expo (Tal Darim).

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=367

Also, another problem I'm facing is muta harass. In this particular replay, I knew I was ahead in army, but simply couldn't push out to end the game. And whenever I tried to put pressure I was greeted by mass lings and spines, somehow I seem to always be deterred by mass static defense. This was on Shattered Temple. Hope I could gain some wonderful feedback

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=368

[TragicHero]

Oops something's up with the net

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by TragicHero

Here's a replay of me playing a usual PvT. I seem to find it hard to handle multiple drops. In this replay, I get dropped in 2 different positions and also face his units at the bottom of my ramp. Any tips on what I can do better? Also I find it hard to put pressure on the T as most of them puts up like 3 bunkers at their expo (Tal Darim).

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=367

Tel'darim cross po. 1 gate expand against 2 rax pressure. Correctly defended, even if I think you lost one production cycle with your lone gate, that would have helped you not lost so many workers.
Then
* You wasted your energy on the Nexus of your expand. It was 100 energy at 10:42 and was not used until ~16:15. This is something very important to do use our Chronoboosts.
* It's better to research a tech (Colossus for example), use it for some time, then search another (Templar) if needed. You searched both in the same time making them very expensive for each unit (1 Colossi and 2 Templars at the first engagement and under-efficient (no storm and you launched thermo lance 1m30 sec too late). Plus you don't have any money left to research the very important upgrades for ground units while your opponent had ones.
* When he lures you with his main army at your door while preparing his drop, you must be more aggressive. Your small Deathball was enough to kill a good part of it quickly, make him flee and then you would have more time to defend your base. Begin the battle by the Force fields, kill what doesn't flee.
* To defend drops, you have only one solution : Scout better. You can do that either by patrolling observers (like you did on the left (but make him patrol to see the edge of the map)) or what is more common today, placing pylons at key points of the map to cover the main paths.
* Then when drop is here you need warping zealots and stalkers to defend, or zealots only but only if they have charge. I just tested now. You need about 4 zealots and 2 stalkers to counter a medivac with 4 marines and 2 Marauders (stim, shield, CC) maybe more cause my micro is crap, but if the guy has 3 fronts it will be too. If you have charge 4 zealots would do the trick. If you only defend with Stalkers and there are Marauders with Medivac, bad things will happen for your stalkers.

His drops were really awesome by the while. The path chosen hard to detect and coordination was great. He's a good player, you should have gged IMO.

Dealing with bunkers :
* On Tel'Darim there is a imba stair up and down between the 3rd (with the rocks) and the main that allow you to put a pylon on one side then blink stalkers inside the "hole" then the pylon give you vision to blink on the main of the Terran and rip is base. He will come back to defend but as he had put money on his quick expand and 3 bunkers he will be forced to pull his SCV then loose many of them. Then you blink back then you attack the natural now undefended, then again the main etc. until death. This stair is not present I think on MLG map (or other tournament, I don't remember).
* On other map don't pressure him too much, just harrass to make small damages one at a time. Engage a isolated bunker then run away, the more time pass, the best it is for Toss. Be very careful don't over commit. You must do damage and don't sustan. Abuse the quickness of your stalkers but beware of Concussive Shell. As a Toss you have to Macro up to Deathball and storm and defend. Just be very careful to his tech switch (Banshees, Ghosts).

Originally Posted by TragicHero

Also, another problem I'm facing is muta harass. In this particular replay, I knew I was ahead in army, but simply couldn't push out to end the game. And whenever I tried to put pressure I was greeted by mass lings and spines, somehow I seem to always be deterred by mass static defense. This was on Shattered Temple. Hope I could gain some wonderful feedback
http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=368

* Not walling against zerg ? How do you defend 6-9 pool ?
* 11" : Don't try to engage 8 Spine Crawler without either heavy support (Colossus, Immortal) or a more critical mass (and don't let immortals walk alone in the field with zergling lurking). Toss have multiple ways to enter by the back door. On Close Air, you have the warp prism, you can warp units on the main with a proxy pylon and a obs, you have blink + obs. He had committed himself too heavily on spines. punish him by harassing the back.
* 15" : Both Nexus full of energy. Use your Chronoboosts on whatever is producing. Use them.
* You had blink that's an appropriate way of dealing efficiently with mutas, you also went for Templars and storm, that's another excellent way of countering them. Then you must spread your units around your bases to be able to engage them quicly as soon as they arrive. If gling swarm arrive, scout it and buy time with FF to let your whole army gather. You were too clumped up in front of your Natural. It doesn't take many units to scare Mutas away.
* 22:30 : Don't come back to defend your base. Go for trade. You will eventually get rid of his mutas, he will be forced to back them. Your force was overwhelming he could have done nothing to stop it. All his buildings would have melted like snow sunbathing.
* 25:50 : 6 Templars making a sitting at the south of your base with full energy. Was there a strike or something ? Look, pay them better now, that's not the moment to have union meetings, you will fire them after. :-))

In conclusion, don't follow the mutas with your whole army, just spread it at the entrance of each base, throw a few cannons at the less easily defended places and each time you see more than 12 mutas, spread well your HT's and storm them as soon as they arrive somewhere. When your army is ready push with the whole without stopping. if mutas try a tradebase just warp in some stalkers to scare them away in your base. You will do more damage than them.

Your opponent was very good with his mutas. I would have been mad if I were you, that's a really awful situation. ^^

Quick Comments

	TragicHero:	Thanks for the feedback, more might be coming your way :P
	nirvAnA:

[TragicHero]

I was really quite upset after those games lol. I was on a 6 game losing streak when I had to play those... So yeah I think I raged out of the game heh.

And really really thank you so much for the feedback. They will definitely help me improve my game, especially in dealing with said situations.

Regarding me not blocking my ramp, the main reason I'm doing so is actually to defend against early pool. I thought of doing so after watching WhiteRa's stream a couple of weeks back. I've tried it out and it definitely is much easier (for me) to defend against an early pool. I have confidence to micro against lings without speed. I've also got a couple of replays of these games that I wouldn't mind sharing .
Another reason is that I find it's harder to defend an early pool if I block off the ramp is because the pylon will be too far away and sometimes the lings will get in before the zealot finishes warping in. And whenever that happens I find it really hard to defend the pylon/gates.

Also, I got into a game where the zerg will bring a couple of drones with his lings, do the mineral glitch to bypass my zealot, and proceeded to kill it really quickly. That one was tough lol

If the zerg is not doing an early pool, I'll subsequently construct my 2nd and 3 gates to block off the ramp - solely because whenever the zerg scouts an empty ramp they will go ahead and make a few more lings and well by that time I'd have a sentry out etc.

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by TragicHero

I was really quite upset after those games lol. I was on a 6 game losing streak when I had to play those... So yeah I think I raged out of the game heh.

No problem, I understand ;-). You gged the zerg after his Muta torture, that was great self control ! :-))

Originally Posted by TragicHero

And really really thank you so much for the feedback. They will definitely help me improve my game, especially in dealing with said situations.

You're welcome. Don't hesitate to send other if you want, I like analyzing replays. ;-)

Originally Posted by TragicHero

Regarding me not blocking my ramp, the main reason I'm doing so is actually to defend against early pool. I thought of doing so after watching WhiteRa's stream a couple of weeks back. I've tried it out and it definitely is much easier (for me) to defend against an early pool. I have confidence to micro against lings without speed. I've also got a couple of replays of these games that I wouldn't mind sharing .
Another reason is that I find it's harder to defend an early pool if I block off the ramp is because the pylon will be too far away and sometimes the lings will get in before the zealot finishes warping in. And whenever that happens I find it really hard to defend the pylon/gates.

Also, I got into a game where the zerg will bring a couple of drones with his lings, do the mineral glitch to bypass my zealot, and proceeded to kill it really quickly. That one was tough lol

If the zerg is not doing an early pool, I'll subsequently construct my 2nd and 3 gates to block off the ramp - solely because whenever the zerg scouts an empty ramp they will go ahead and make a few more lings and well by that time I'd have a sentry out etc.

I understand now. I'm greatly interested by the replay you propose to share, I think other will be too.