[Apth]

Originally Posted by BordZ

I have said this on TL and i will say it here, Blizz has an obligation to balance the game at ALL levels

Only way to do this would be to mechanically adjust the game at different levels. Not going to happen.

Ontopic, do people think Protoss as a race is easier/harder to play at different skill levels? Is it reasonably consistent Bronze through GM, or is there a Zerg-like skill curve?

[nGenLight]

Zerg is definitely imbalanced at the lower levels. However, I could really care less about the lower levels right now. Pardon me.

[crAzerk]

Crazerk, you aren't acknolweding that Tom is merely instigating discussion, as opposed to deducing any conclusion.

Well, let what I've said to be the counterargument to anyone who is considering to establish Tom's hypothesis as a conclusion then

And to answer the question simply (of the thread),


No

[Next_rim]

>How do I fight a Zerg death ball? (Infestor+Hydra+Broodlord)

Try carriers, works wonders. Funny enough, stalker+carrier beats hydra + corruptor.

[dennistoo]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

>How do I fight a Zerg death ball? (Infestor+Hydra+Broodlord)

Try carriers, works wonders. Funny enough, stalker+carrier beats hydra + corruptor.

Carriers? That's out of the plan to beat the death ball. How many high level games you see carrier/mothership getting produce? By producing stalkers/carriers in an early game would be instant good game.

[nGenLight]

Oh I break them down good, and have no answers on how to adequately satisfy all those requirements without giving up something else.

[pikk0n]

Just wondering. Instead of carriers, wouldn't archons work better? I know most people view archons as units you'll only get after recycling the templars but that's the only unit I can think of to counter a zerg death ball like that. you can also get blink stalkers to add into that mix.

[dennistoo]

Originally Posted by pikk0n

Just wondering. Instead of carriers, wouldn't archons work better? I know most people view archons as units you'll only get after recycling the templars but that's the only unit I can think of to counter a zerg death ball like that. you can also get blink stalkers to add into that mix.

It's too gas intensive. And you will required lots of resource to get almost 10 archon into the mixed of deathball. And you will need either twilight/templar to get archon out. With only 2 base into the above mentioned built is impossible. The foodcount will definitely way behind the zerg by a massive amount.

Even if we do managed to survive the first push or pushing for a timing push, with saved up larva of mass producing of zerg units, it would be hard to defend 2nd expo or even with the mininum units left.

GG.

[nGenLight]

^ Fair point Del, I have concluded that all the stronger Protoss rely on some sort of 2-base timing attack into propelling them into being able to either win the game there or allow them to expand to the third. Oh but when you do those timing attacks you run the risk of being base traded by the Zerg who has a high econ than you. It makes perfect sense to me why the Protoss I watch in replays and on GSL are doing what they are doing, and it also runs perfectly to me why these guys are failing. I am not inspired by things I already understand.

If you don't 2-base timing attack Zerg and try to get a 3rd. You put Zerg in a great position where he is sitting on 3/4 bases, has a better econ than you, multi-prong harrasing you at ever opportunity while teching to Broodlord/Ultra and infestors, which just laughs at your 200/200 "death" ball. I once tried to defend a Zerg player that dropped my main, attacked my natural and attacked my third at the same time. I sent 3 separate forces to deal with all three of them, and all 3 forces died to the more efficient roach army

[dennistoo]

Well, i guess cheesing is the only way to win now.

1 base DT rush ftw.

[AlphaWhale]

Originally Posted by dennistoo

Well, i guess cheesing is the only way to win now.

1 base DT rush ftw.

Yeah I hear you can win a GSL with that. Oh wait...

Personally I'd like to see the new protoss meta trend towards templar/mass warpgate play. (When you see protoss warp in 21 units at once it makes hatcheries look weak). Terrans are pretty much making blind vikings in PvT and zergs are learning how to use infestors.

But robo gives you a lot of mid game security so how that's going to come around I do not know.

[nGenLight]

I'm sure there are much much more I need to learn about the matchup. But as of right now, I am not seeing from anything outside of SEA that is making me go "holy shit I wish knew what he was thinking when he is doing that!". I felt that way when I saw MC reign, Naniwa's emergence at TSL/MLG, but right now I'm getting nothing, and I sure hope someone shows me something soon because I am getting increasingly impatient T_T. Also, those figures/stats shown by http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=218558 (although small but statistically significant) is making me pretty demoralised.

I'm aware I'm sounding very QQ right now, so I'm going to opt out~

[dennistoo]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

I'm sure there are much much more I need to learn about the matchup. But as of right now, I am not seeing from anything outside of SEA that is making me go "holy shit I wish knew what he was thinking when he is doing that!". I felt that way when I saw MC reign, Naniwa's emergence at TSL/MLG, but right now I'm getting nothing, and I sure hope someone shows me something soon because I am getting increasingly impatient T_T. Also, those figures/stats shown by http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=218558 (although small but statistically significant) is making me pretty demoralised.

I'm aware I'm sounding very QQ right now, so I'm going to opt out~

LOL!

I just saw it too. It super demoralised. Move on. It's a honest mistake.

[Next_rim]

Carriers? That's out of the plan to beat the death ball. How many high level games you see carrier/mothership getting produce?

Exactly my point from before. Protoss don't use all units in their arsenal. Did you know that carrier has 1,5x one-target dps of colossus? And that 5 carriers do same dps to hydra ball as 4 colossi? Bet you didn't. Except for carriers take down 2x their amount of corruptors, while colossi...well, don't shoot air. And suddenly you can kill broodlords too. The question is - how do you transition from all-favorite 2-base gateway into stargate. I personally prefer to forge FE straight into gateway/stargate, skipping TC and robo. And after I saw a mothership timing in GSL, I went "FINALLY they are experimenting".

[crAzerk]

To be unnecessarily nitpicky and anal,

Originally Posted by nGenLight

Also, those figures/stats shown by http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=218558 (although small but statistically significant)

How do you know they are statistically significant? What significance level are you using?

Ok do ignore that I'm just being annoying.

Anyway, every race (besides Terran) experiences such frustration at some point of time. Don't be too negative!

(subtle message)

[Roz]

I think it's meaningless to debate whether protoss is underpowered, failing to adapt to the metagame, or just "not having good enough players at the top level". None of these points can be proven at this point. Like pinder said, all we know is that protoss in general is struggling atm. Protoss definately has some flaws but so do other races. It could very well be that protoss is underpowered and we might not be able to flip the metagame back into our favor. I mean I wouldn't know and neither does anyone. All we can hope for is that's not the case and someone comes up with something new or some future patch fixes something for us.

As for the arguments of using warp prisms, carriers, motherships... well carriers are very strong vs zerg, especially if you get ur air attack upgrades early. But i mean simply by saying that we shouldn't be crying because we aren't using all the units at our disposal is really being ignorant. Protoss is struggling in pvt and pvz and yes protoss have been using warp prisms vs t. But do you really think going carriers is a good idea other than for some weird timing attack? Heavy marines will kill off interceptors like they weren't there, moving onto mid game vikings just lol at ur carriers. If you somehow hid ur tech and u suddenly walk out with 6 carriers, yea it would work but u're gambling on the fact that u didn't die beforehand or they didn't spot it early enough. Not really how people would want to play.

Also about zerg mechanics being harder, yes i also think that is true. Is it imbalanced? Well in some ways yes, but the whole point of having different races is to have them have different strengths and weaknesses. Even though the mechanics of a zerg is the hardest to master, at the same time if you do it well, it makes you really good at zerg in general. What i mean is that zerg is more rewarding in having better mechanics than a race like protoss.

In conclusion, i just think it's pointless to discuss whether the race is underpowered or not. There are times where you just can't prove whether people won because they are just a better player or whether it was their race that made them appear to be the better player. So rather than discussing about OP/UP, it's better to just try to use the time to try to think of ways of going around certain things.

Quick Comments

holyforker:

[Paroxysm]

From a zerg's perspective, it seems that protoss has become the weakest race. It looks as though zerg players are slowly understanding how to play the race properly and, just like the protoss were destroying us not months ago, we have the ability to destroy them. Basically, zerg and protoss have switched postions on the balance spectrum as the understanding of the zerg metagame has changed. Terran is still at the top of course

[pikk0n]

There once was a thread about zerg being UP and this is right before last patch which imo, doesn't really affect toss that much. Seriously, has the most recent patch with the spore crawlers and warp gate time increase really affected the matchup? Zergs complain about death balls and FF not 4gate pushes from tosses. In fact, the most recent patch with archons being massive and sentry decreased training time should make toss a little more powerful. What zerg players are doing now is using their infestors more and this is as a result of the patch right before this. Zerg players have finally discovered a method to counter FFs and death balls (banes were never changed) with a method using units that have always been available to them. In fact, I would say that the infestor's fungal growth decreased effect time should make the infestors less OP. Imagine having bane drops on your death ball which is stuck for 8 seconds. I agree completely with what JPMoney said about how ZvPs in BW evolved and I'm very sure that soon protoss players would find a way around that zerg death ball. I have always seen zerg as being capable of countering FFs and that toss deathball back when the zerg QQ thread was first made. These imba threads are always fun to read and I'm pretty sure that new strats come out from these threads. Zerg players are getting smarter. It's always good to see a change at the top level.

As for toss and terran being easier to play in the lower levels... Seriously? I play random and the hardest race to play is terran because macroing is easier than microing. Terran units require so much more microing than zerg units because one misclick and you lose your whole army and that's gg.... For me, zerg = sacrifice your army and remacro up instantly because you have so many saved larva. Low level = just macro and zerg's injecting larva micro isn't that hard. Creep spreading micro isn't that hard too... :S Do note that I am talking about low level plays. Gold and below. I am a gold random player and of all races, terran's micro is the hardest. Try Stim and A+Moving against lings and banes. That's the first thing I hope a terran does when playing against a zerg. Marine tank, I hate so much because I just find tank micro freaking annoying. If the zerg scouts your units moving out, he'll just macro up his lings, sac them to kill your tanks and send some banes to weaken your marines before remacroing up again while you try and establish a foothold in the middle of the map. Your push is interrupted right there. I try to get my third since i know the zerg is getting armies instead of drones and well, with bad micro, my army gets wiped out and my third is basically gone. LOL! I'm just disagreeing with an earlier comment that toss and terran are easy to play in lower levels. If you're up against zergs who one base and masses roaches against your marauder + marine army off 2 tech labs and 1 reactor (3 rax MM army which people complain is OP), then yeah. It's easy to play as terran but I do not see that many 'not so bright' zerg players around anymore. Not going to use protoss examples since I find terran the hardest race to use NOT an UP race. I can see how powerful they can be in the hands of someone good. In the lower levels, your focus is on macroing and no other race is easier to macro than zerg. Counter to 4gate = spines + lings and roaches and counter to 3 rax = more spines + lings and banes. Microing's a different thing all together.

[nGenLight]

Page of Phat Paragraphs

I agree with what Pinder and Roz are saying. I just hope this meta-game transition doesn't take too long. CBF Losing and not knowing what to do!!!

[Tom]

Effect of the recent patch

There seem to be a misconception that the under-performance (to use a neutral term) of Protoss players is a result of the recent patch. The patch probably had some effect, but note that some of the "apparent" trends referred to in my OP began 1 or 2 months before the patch.

Conversely, I personally have thought that the complaints about Protoss being overpowered have been unjustified for quite some time. But it became one of those things "everybody knows its true" and was hard to shake that from people's minds even when the data was screaming out that it was wrong (at least among top players).

Is there any point looking at the data?

There also seems to be a view to the effect that it is "meaningless" or "pointless" to look at data, or that the data doesn't tell us anything. In my view, data should always be treated with caution, but having said that it is always worthwhile looking at data. At the very least, the data tells us what is happening right now, which of course may change. That is why it is important to seek to identify trends over time. I will continue to follow the developments with great interest.

The "shifting metagame" argument is no doubt correct. Of course, an innovative Protoss player may come up with a style or strategy that blows everything else away. But it is at least as likely that there is also some (as yet unknown) awesome Zerg or Terran strategy that is yet to be discovered. Ultimately, I think if the data starts to consistently tell us something (ie a clear trend emerges over time), there comes a time when someone needs to step in. I acknowledge that it may be too early to say that point has been reached here. But Blizzard has been doing a lot of patching based on relatively short time periods of data.