[dennistoo]

okay guys. i've managed to save some replays from the 3 matches against zerg. I tried the normal standard build order for the first game but ultimately, i've to cheese so hard to win my remaining 2 games.

it would be great if you could advice on what went wrong on my 1st game because it seems like phx still can't contain the mass mutalisk, lings & roaches!

G1
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...delta-quadrant

G2
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...delta-quadrant

G3
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...g-jungle-basin

[Apth]

Originally Posted by dennistoo

G1 http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/98687-1v1-protoss-zerg-delta-quadrant

Lots of Protoss players seem to be having trouble with Muta-Ling at the moment. Here's why.
When you see Mutas, you sit in your base in fear. You can't push out because when you do, he annihilates your mineral line. Solution? Cannon up your mineral line, and just go F*&#ing kill him. Be prepared to lose some pylons, and probably some probes, but it is better than the alternative - letting a Zerg player expand all over the map, have a 200/200 army when you're sitting on 115/115, and getting eaten.

Muta-Ling is fragile. If the Zerg player is on the defensive, it's terrible. Mutas and Lings both die so freakin easily. The strength of Muta-Ling is that when it's being aggressive, if the Zerg player thinks he's losing too many units, he can run away. If you're in his base, he can't run anywhere.
Go F*&%ing kill him.

A couple of secondary points - Phoenix is a terrible counter to mass Muta. Phoenixes can kill a lot of Mutas when they can micro away - if he's attacking your mineral line, and you micro away, he just sits there and kills more probes. If you're going to build Phoenixes, go harass him. Snipe Queens, pick off Overlords - force his Mutalisks to come back to his base, so he can't be in yours. Be aggressive.
Expanding next to the destructible debris was not a good idea. Either wait til you can kill the debris, or expand to your second nat at the front of your base.

To reiterate my main point - you *cannot* let a Zerg player sit back, expand and macro up. You will lose. By making Mutas, he is trying to force you to turtle. Don't let him. Be aggressive.

Originally Posted by dennistoo

G2 http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/98689-1v1-protoss-zerg-delta-quadrant
G3 http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/98688-1v1-protoss-zerg-jungle-basin

Cannon contain into proxy stargate voidrays? Ew.
You didn't learn anything from these games. Unless you plan to cheese for the rest of your SC2 life, don't do it. Did you win those games? Yep. Did you develop your skills, your knowledge or your proficiency with the game? Not in the slightest.

Cheesing can be fun, but don't do it if you're actually trying to improve how you play the game.

[dennistoo]

Originally Posted by Apth

Lots of Protoss players seem to be having trouble with Muta-Ling at the moment. Here's why.
When you see Mutas, you sit in your base in fear. You can't push out because when you do, he annihilates your mineral line. Solution? Cannon up your mineral line, and just go F*&#ing kill him. Be prepared to lose some pylons, and probably some probes, but it is better than the alternative - letting a Zerg player expand all over the map, have a 200/200 army when you're sitting on 115/115, and getting eaten.

Muta-Ling is fragile. If the Zerg player is on the defensive, it's terrible. Mutas and Lings both die so freakin easily. The strength of Muta-Ling is that when it's being aggressive, if the Zerg player thinks he's losing too many units, he can run away. If you're in his base, he can't run anywhere.
Go F*&%ing kill him.

A couple of secondary points - Phoenix is a terrible counter to mass Muta. Phoenixes can kill a lot of Mutas when they can micro away - if he's attacking your mineral line, and you micro away, he just sits there and kills more probes. If you're going to build Phoenixes, go harass him. Snipe Queens, pick off Overlords - force his Mutalisks to come back to his base, so he can't be in yours. Be aggressive.
Expanding next to the destructible debris was not a good idea. Either wait til you can kill the debris, or expand to your second nat at the front of your base.

To reiterate my main point - you *cannot* let a Zerg player sit back, expand and macro up. You will lose. By making Mutas, he is trying to force you to turtle. Don't let him. Be aggressive.




Cannon contain into proxy stargate voidrays? Ew.
You didn't learn anything from these games. Unless you plan to cheese for the rest of your SC2 life, don't do it. Did you win those games? Yep. Did you develop your skills, your knowledge or your proficiency with the game? Not in the slightest.

Cheesing can be fun, but don't do it if you're actually trying to improve how you play the game.

I think the main issue is purely with mass mutalisk. I have no issue with roaches/lings mixed with hydras. And thanks for pointing out that i'm not as aggressive because i'm just worried to get my army wipe out.

I replayed my reply and i noticed after his failed attempt in pushing with roaches/lings.. i never even counter knowing i have at least 6 stalkers. And i realized i've not been making lost probes and concentrate more on massing my stalkers/phx.

[Apth]

Originally Posted by dennistoo

I think the main issue is purely with mass mutalisk.

What I'm trying to say is that it isn't the Mutalisk as a unit that's causing you problems, it's what the Zerg player did with the Mutalisks - namely, harass your mineral line, making you turtle.

The reason you don't have the same problem with Roach/Hydra is because your opponent doesn't have the opportunity to harass you, so you can be as aggressive as you like.

If you push as soon as those first Muta's come out, I think you'll find most Muta-Ling players will fold, as they're counting on you turtling up.

[herahera]

Originally Posted by dennistoo

okay guys. i've managed to save some replays from the 3 matches against zerg. I tried the normal standard build order for the first game but ultimately, i've to cheese so hard to win my remaining 2 games.

it would be great if you could advice on what went wrong on my 1st game because it seems like phx still can't contain the mass mutalisk, lings & roaches!

G1
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...delta-quadrant

G2
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...delta-quadrant

G3
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...g-jungle-basin

when i saw this post i was instantly outraged. delta quad and jungle basin are HORRIBLE maps for zerg. I think i need to stress on that point once again. HORRIBLE maps for zerg.

on delta quad as protoss u have a "free" 3 base potential, easily defended, and u can sit in till u max an army, and it'll be up to the zerg to break you. alternatively u can push out, and the close rush distance only swings the battle in your favor.

Jungle basin makes for lots of choke points so as long as u keep your army in a good choke position it will be very hard for zerg to engage you. it is also a very difficult map for Zerg to secure a third and as long as u keep up on bases (which is very easy to do on this map) and keep up on macro you should almost never lose.

You definitely need help, not because you are losing to zerg, but because you're losing on these maps. Btw, i play zerg, and i ban (vote out) delta quadrant, jungle basin and steppes of war from my 1's map pool. I'm pretty sure most zerg players will too.

[shsh]

Try doing phoenix harass, expand and transit to colossus/ht.
When zerg have many expansions, just send 2 -3 dt to each of them, use warp prism. It will irritate the hell out of them.

4 gate can bring u to plat league, use sentries more.
sentry imba!

[Satu]

Im not on the right computer to look at replays or whatever, but as a zerg, I can tell you what annoys the heck outta me in a PvZ.

- As a protoss, if you move out, you will notice a single zergling near your base. Simply moving out and attacking that will force a zerg player to react. Do it often enough and you can make the zerg player react enough to make his economy a bit slower. The economy is what you really have to fear, not the units. The units are only a result of the economy.

- If the zerg player is not reacting heavily, move your army over to their base, then back off. They will DEFINITELY react, if not overreact. They will be making army units and not drones, which really does hurt their offense in the later stages of the game.

- Harrass as much as you possibly can if you get voidrays, just dont lose them. Keep them in your main army once defences are up to stop harrassment that you are trying. Yet again, this is to combat the zerg economy.

- Dont try going 1base, unless the zerg is crap at reacting to your army. Most will be beyond this stage of early zerg play though.

- Since the zerg will typically have a larger army, you have to work with chokes as much as possible. If you have a scarier looking army vs a decent zerg army in an open space, dont risk it. Logic like that should help you more than practicing trying to micro in such an area. If you DO get caught out, spread your forces to attempt to get a concave of some sort. Zerg concaves are super deadly and very easy to get for zerg players. For this reason, dont sit your army outside their base either... Be active with it.

- Phoenix vs overlords is pretty much all you really want to use them for. Zerg will react and get defense for it, but you should be able to stop most of their scouting this way. Just dont go phoenix heavy, I havent ever seen it work, and it will take away from you main army. On top of that, I'd say phoenix are the most likely units for protoss to lose, apart from probes.

- Cannons on your worker lines, even if only one on each, will benefit you a fair bit. Even if the zerg focuses them down with their mutas, it'll give a few more seconds for you to get over there with stalkers/phoenix/voidrays which means less probes loss. Taking into consideration the fact that you'll need a forge for upgrades and the cannon will do damage to the mutas, it should work out nicely. Although, I'd probably reccomend two cannons just for extra area covered.

I know some of that stuff is kind of basic, but everyone can always polish their basics up some more without it hurting much. Unless maybe you broke both your hands the day before. Then you probably wouldn't be able to type in this website and get to this thread anyway. But its as if someone like me would break your hands. Yet.

Note: Zergtastic does not endorse violence in any way, shape or form, unless it is starcraft related.

[divinesage]

Originally Posted by dennistoo

okay guys. i've managed to save some replays from the 3 matches against zerg. I tried the normal standard build order for the first game but ultimately, i've to cheese so hard to win my remaining 2 games.

it would be great if you could advice on what went wrong on my 1st game because it seems like phx still can't contain the mass mutalisk, lings & roaches!

G1
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...delta-quadrant

Basically what Apth has said. You cannot afford to play reactive against a muta ling zerg army. Muta lings are very fragile and will crack to aggression if done correctly. Phoenixes hard counter Mutalisks but building them as a reaction to mass mutas will not work as the mutalisks will have reached a critical mass by then making your phoenixes very much less effective. Also a few other things to point out as I watched the game.

1. Seems like you like to clump your buildings at the ramp, but it's not a good idea. Basically during the first engage with the zerg's roaches you lost out because the clutter in front of the ramp gave roaches the chance to take potshots at your zealots. So building just two buildings and a pylon or two for the ramp is pretty much sufficient. Keep the rest of your structures away from the ramp (and have more stalkers instead of zealots).

2. Never ever place a nexus that far from the mineral line, especially when you have the luxury of it being protected in your base.

3.I believe that you should have expanded earlier since if you realised, the zerg sunk 375 minerals (and the potential of mining with 3 drones) into spines. That means that he has effectively contained himself in the base for the time being. That being said this is not very much of a concern yet, you need to focus on more probe production.

Originally Posted by dennistoo

G2
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...delta-quadrant

G3
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...g-jungle-basin

Nothing much to comment here besides the pylon block. Normally you put the pylon in front of the wall and not the cannon. Pylons have higher health and the cannons don't immediately shut down the moment one wall gets destroyed. Also, no idea why did you do that on jungle basin when the zerg has a second base he can take almost immediately and play a macro game.