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ToRskrawL · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:17 PM

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	neKo:	wut
	TABottles:	We got 'em!

NvJazBas · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xGKingJazBas

Kepler: *
I wouldn't exactly trust Kayhan's opinion. Kayhan was not very good.

He was SEA low GM. Maybe he wasn't very good but he certainly wasn't a guy who would lie so he wouldn't have to pay. He paid me for multiple hours. I'm sure he didn't lie about himself beating Chobo.

Sedz · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xGKingJazBas

He was SEA low GM. Maybe he wasn't very good but he certainly wasn't a guy who would lie so he wouldn't have to pay. He paid me for multiple hours. I'm sure he didn't lie about himself beating Chobo.

Even if he did beat CHobo in one of the prac games for whatever reason (I can see a student that is high masters/low gm beating their coach) it still doesn't excuse him for not paying and being a complete dick to everyone on ladder and CHobo himself.

NvJazBas · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sedz

Even if he did beat Kice in one of the prac games for whatever reason (Keep in mind, I can see a student that is high masters/low gm beating their coach) it still doesn't excuse him for not paying.

Read before replying. I already said that in no way I'm saying Kayhan did a right thing. I actually said he didn't.

Kepler · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xGKingJazBas

He was SEA low GM. Maybe he wasn't very good but he certainly wasn't a guy who would lie so he wouldn't have to pay. He paid me for multiple hours. I'm sure he didn't lie about himself beating Chobo.

That is true, I stand corrected.

AsGNabi · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xGKingJazBas

He was SEA low GM. Maybe he wasn't very good but he certainly wasn't a guy who would lie so he wouldn't have to pay. He paid me for multiple hours. I'm sure he didn't lie about himself beating Chobo.

Kayhan beat Chobo while he was coaching, so it really isn't that black and white.

Short answer, yes he beat him.
Long answer, not in the way Chobo would be playing normally.

NvRossi · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsGNabi

Kayhan beat Chobo while he was coaching, so it really isn't that black and white.

Short answer, yes he beat him.
Long answer, not in the way Chobo would be playing normally.

Why are you responding and Chobo is not?

Kepler · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NvRossi

Why are you responding and Chobo is not?

Based on what he's told me on skype, he's trying to figure out how to respond.

AsGNabi · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NvRossi

Why are you responding and Chobo is not?

Because he got mad and went for a shower. He's writing a reply now.

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	iMSystem:	Getting giddy now
	NvJazBas:	Moment I've been waiting for
	ToR.Arnor:	Anything to calm down Thomas
	TCPLemminks:	lol Jaz

NvJazBas · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsGNabi

Kayhan beat Chobo while he was coaching, so it really isn't that black and white.

Short answer, yes he beat him.
Long answer, not in the way Chobo would be playing normally.

I've beaten Kayhan with Terran.

I'm sure a Terran who can beat top zergs like tgun,glade,targa,mafia,ender can beat kayhan easily?

Rage · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xGKingJazBas

I've beaten Kayhan with Terran.

I'm sure a Terran who can beat top zergs like tgun,glade,targa,mafia,ender can beat kayhan easily?

I feel like a distinction needs to be made here between beating him while coaching and beating him in a normal scenario.

I got coaching from TypeReaL many many months ago - at the time he was low level KR GM, about to move to Europe (where he got GM basically rightaway), and during some PvP coaching games, I beat him once - but it was simply due to the fact that he was trying to show me the correct way to defend blink/obs with immortal expand, and was deliberately being more aggressive than one would in a normal game, which eventually meant I could overrun him.

Does that mean I'm clearly better than him?

No, it just means that a big part of the difference between real top players and players like me is the focus and repeated practise that goes into their games and builds, and when they are thinking about coaching as well as playing and also doing things that they don't necessarily practise, the gap is much smaller and easier to cross.

NvJazBas · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rage

I feel like a distinction needs to be made here between beating him while coaching and beating him in a normal scenario.

I got coaching from TypeReaL many many months ago - at the time he was low level KR GM, about to move to Europe (where he got GM basically rightaway), and during some PvP coaching games, I beat him once - but it was simply due to the fact that he was trying to show me the correct way to defend blink/obs with immortal expand, and was deliberately being more aggressive than one would in a normal game, which eventually meant I could overrun him.

Does that mean I'm clearly better than him?

No, it just means that a big part of the difference between real top players and players like me is the focus and repeated practise that goes into their games and builds, and when they are thinking about coaching as well as playing and also doing things that they don't necessarily practise, the gap is much smaller and easier to cross.

PvP and ZvT very different.

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Rage:

You have me there. Point taken.

iM MaFia · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:21 PM

If i ever paid for coaching and my coach was worse than me, wouldn't you feel ripped off especially when his record is like 80% GM top 3 etc NA GM etc

TABottles · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:28 PM

@TABiggun Oh ok cheers. In that case he's a bigger scrub than me

mOOnGLaDe · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:28 PM

sounds like a nickname that should be used for me

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	NvJazBas:
	TAEdgE:	oh god andy
	TCPLemminks:
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	TASlowHands:	My name is andy and i am the moonstar......
	Dox:	Nv.mOOnSTaR

Rage · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:35 PM

I still don't think he hacked - the evidence was nowhere near conclusive about that.

But this....this is pretty cut and dry. I don't care what anyone says, hotkey setups are not reproducible by someone who doesn't use them for hundreds of games, not if they are playing at a high level.

In my mind, the most likely set of events is this - Chobo himself is a low GM/high masters player, enough to be convincing to Nirvana when they played. This also explains why he trades games evenly with Masters players at LANs, and also why he was able to be a convincing SC2SEA TGM coach - someone of that level can easily have enough knowledge to fill some coaching sessions.

But then the Chobo who beats the top of SEA is SeoYeon. I'm sure if we analysed key replays we would see this pattern replicated.

FaDeHellfyre · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:42 PM

I have a question that may seem stupid... but at risk of incurring the wroth of everyone I'll ask.

If it was indeed SeoHyeon playing on Chobo's account (I do not want to get into the argument of whether it was or not), shouldn't SeoHyeon also be getting looked at? Should someone notify his team (vVv gaming?)? This behaviour is against blizzards ToS is it not, and he would have been ineligible for the tournament otherwise. Also, if it happened, he was getting paid for it, so that also raises a lot of anger and actually some bannable offences i would think?

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	NvJazBas:	ofc
	mGGDaedalus:	is being discussed, everything waiting on statemnt from chobo i think

Peleus · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESLHellfyre

I have a question that may seem stupid... but at risk of incurring the wroth of everyone I'll ask.

If it was indeed SeoHyeon playing on Chobo's account (I do not want to get into the argument of whether it was or not), shouldn't SeoHyeon also be getting looked at? Should someone notify his team (vVv gaming?)? This behaviour is against blizzards ToS is it not, and he would have been ineligible for the tournament otherwise. Also, if it happened, he was getting paid for it, so that also raises a lot of anger and actually some bannable offences i would think?

I'm sure the most likely avenue for progressing is this -

Wait for Chobo to respond, get his side of the story, wait for any more evidence to come forward (Nirv said perhaps he had some) and not do anything until the fast paced thread settles down.

Once all the information is together I'm sure this thread will be linked to the wider sc2 communities (Reddit, TL, PlayXP etc) and they will take appropriate action against SeoHyeon

Edit: Re communities (Reddit etc) I'm not a huge fan of mobs and pitchforks over think like swearing or BM, but cheating and smurfing deserve as much exposure as possible to lead to those responsible getting removed from the community as widely as possible.

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	jayaiwhy:	oh god, not reddit
	FaDeHellfyre:	Ah ok. Thanks, just checking. I'll continue eating my popcorn then :P
	Kepler:	Please not Reddit. For the love of God.
	Maynarde:	No reddit imo, they're pretty visceral there

Rage · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:49 PM

Please don't involve reddit or TL in this.

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Maynarde:

I agree, this is a mistake

Cyanide · Thu, 7th-Jun-2012, 10:49 PM

I think the coaching issues are irrelevant to this post atm, as is this post.

Perhaps we can get back to the core issue, and wait for a response from Chobo.

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	xGKingdelete:	the coaching is evidence that someone has been using chobo's account to smurf and he intentionally that happen
	NvJazBas:	Yes it was just a little thing I wanted to point out. Getting way too big