[TAScarecrow]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

You can find everything related to the drama here as well as del's original personal attack in response to his infraction.

Summary:

1. del leaves a negative comment about the race wars without reading properly that line ups weren't out yet
2. I infracted him for it as it was his fault to be so quick to make such a comment without reading
3. I also mock deL's "importance" in a neg rep and subsequent post, belittling him e.g. "grow up"
4. deL makes 400 word personal attack. Hes missing the point, his infraction was about not reading the thread and its the same way people on TL are warned for not reading the OPs and making stupid comments (your opinion shouldn't be here and ignoring the context of his attack). He follows up with negative attack on the whole of the sc2sea community, mods and drags my wife into it
5. Gets banned for 1 week for that response. The mod team and people who read it suggest it was way too lenient and him to be banned for longer.
6. I realise in his anger he also went on to cancel the BSGCL, and furthermore delete the OP which had all information to ensure no one else would be able to continue it.
7. Ban is extended indefinitely, loses Nirvana's trust and is thus removed as Team Au Manager without consulting the Aus team
8. deL's removal as manager is announced in the NW2 thread and comments from del's friends result. Everything is moved here so threads don't get derailed

---

"my comment about putting down tournaments not organised by him"
It didn't manifest out of thin air, and i remember how discouraging it was for me as I experienced this first hand. When I first started organising stuff on TL or first created sc2sea when we were nothing - one of the first few comments would always be by del and be something negative / sarcastic. Then I realised he did this for any every other organiser in SEA as well. Some examples

sc2sea.com's weekly KOTH - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=154412
del "so will this be like a one-day only SEA event cos we will all go to the US server?"

Ichors tournament - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=199391
del "Still has to be better than $20 first prize even if it's $20,000 of mousepads." (this just seems like somewhat negative but useful feedback. The tourney ended up going with a consolidated monthly $100 prize)

When sc2sea first started out - http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?p=13683#post13683
del "I think we should maybe aim a bit lower, and at least get SC2SEA to a level where it's mediocre first. "

There are countless other examples this was just a quick 5 minute search.

Do I think he really wants to help the community? Does he ever make such comments when hes part of the event? I.e Nation Wars. Does he view us as a threat? He loves being in charge (as do you) and when someone else comes along his position feels threatened. Hence my comment about him always putting down other organisers. This is a side of del that his friends would not have experienced. He goes out of his way to put down tournaments, and does not have a good relationship with some other organisers because of this. del-benji, del-dox, del-nirvana. In many cases he has been supported by his friends TA vs Benji, FXO vs DoX, TA vs nirvana.

In my opinion if he truly cared about the community he would never have left such remarks, and would have helped encourage or support organisers or give them the means to be able to reach out to the community. For e.g the BSGs, GPDs, and now even the BSGCL were not any of my ideas, people approached me with them by PM and I took the time to encourage them to go with it, helped them with the rules/format/templates, ran them through the organising process and provided them the structure to run it to reach out to the community. (All of which support your website and the GM Manual)

Now compare my actions with del's and you will see a huge difference in the way we do things and grow communities (Nirvana the Savior of SEA >>> deL the Troll is what this sounds like). If TA did not have a BSG team, do you honestly think del would have even created a BSG league in the first place? (absolutely yes, he's created tournaments and leagues with 0 vested interest before beyond living in the region e.g. SoO I&II) Im not saying he created it solely for TA but when he does "community" stuff its always aligned with his own interests(stuff like this makes the summary feels like a personal attack on deL). TA wasn't doing so hot in BSGCL (irrelevant, the league is for fun, it wasn't some diabolical plot for TA to showcase it's BSG prowess -.-) and FXO was giving him pressure and hence my comment about making events when its aligned to his own interests. Rossi he didn't just get a gentle reminder, he got yelled it for spending so much time on NON-FXO (so the guy's getting yelled at and belittled from both sides, let alone any RL issues, no wonder he lost it) stuff just before I infracted him (which i did not know until later of course).

Do I feel he has contributed to sc2sea? My relationship with him has always been shaky, but I always did my best to keep it neutral (and believe me that was a massive challenge). Because the events he holds even though aligned to his own interests are also aligned to mine AKA the success of my website, clan and manual does benefit the AU SC2 community and so for the greater good I've put aside our personal differences up until I provoked him, even despite my Mod team telling me to ban him repeatedly since the site first began. Recall

del "I think we should maybe aim a bit lower, and at least get SC2SEA to a level where it's mediocre first. " (Harsh but true at the time, baby steps are the way to go. The OP had his head in the clouds)

He was basically always putting us down in multiple threads right from the start at the crucial point where we really needed support. And only when we started becoming big and successful did he start being positive because he wanted to be part of the influence and exposure we were getting (derogatory speculation). The people who have helped build this community are the ones who really give their time (which deL has) or their money, from the donators to the organisers who take their time to run stuff or normal members who take the time to make constructive posts and help others with their strategy. Playing in tournaments and winning prizes does not contribute to building the community. Yes, some of TA have played a big part and if I had to identify people from TA who have helped the most it would probably be Pinder/EdgE to a certain extent for good posts, Fourby a regular donator (who recently joined TA), Paroxysm who organised many events and most recently Edarus who is helping organise the BSGCL.

---

"freedom of speech"

If there wasn't any this thread wouldn't exist afaik this thread is a first and a result of complaints about the delete/edit modding.

basically its brought up continuously by del/deth their friends. I call them "friends" and not "TA" because i have nothing against TA nor do i hold any grudges because they belong to TA. Most of TA are perfectly fine people and if they post something negative I attribute it to be because they are supporting their friends out of friendship and that is what good friends do. Why is this so? Because in over 30,000 posts there have been no other people who were not from TA who have had any problems whatsoever with the way sc2sea is run (XeeN must be the first then -.-). If you remove del/deth related posts there would be 0 posts with people who have a problem.

This also ties in with the freedom of speech / expression argument. Apart from del/deth/zanoku/uncletom/Mancannon (rossi's blog? It's hard to know what else has been deleted) I have never had to delete anyone's posts. When faced with the predicament of "preserving someones freedom of speech" or "deleting the thread for the good of the community" the later we be chosen every single time and its not close at all. (This is what many of us have a problem with. Since when are you the arbiter of what is 'good for the community'? No one person should be able to just outright decide someone else's opinion on a community forum is immature/inappropriate and delete it. Alot of the TA members resent having your values imposed upon them. TL is FAR more impartial. IMO there should be more transparency like this thread, maybe a deleted post thread similar to the TL banlist?)

1. I don't want people to open threads and see it derailed with battles of personal opinions/ "freedom of speech".
Case in point - KPoP thread. An exciting thread with potential for meetups with the community turned into an immature battle of musical preference. (Why does the community have to abide by your idea of maturity and class? It's like being back in school, give people the freedom to post what they want as long as it's not abusive/racist etc. Modding for immaturity on a forum with many young gamers will just build resentment. Set a good example by all means but don't play the teacher)

2. I dont want people to be offended by racist / sexual remarks and then "decide for themselves if they are offended by it"
Case in point - ManCannon's constant sexual remarks about kelly

3. I dont want the reputation system to be abused, however vulnerable it may inherently be.
Tagging certain people actually proved to be amazing deterrent to stop the abuse even though i copped so much shit at the start for implementing it. The reputation system is now used so much better as evidenced in this thread. See this thread http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=2011

That thread is a perfect example of how people can express opinions but still keep it civil, and it becomes a good read. It never derails into immaturity or personal attacks and this is the way "difference of opinions" should be communicated. These are in my opinion what makes forms good, a pleasant environment people can enjoy which produces good feelings rather than a troll filled preservation of everyone's opinion (there can be a balance, TL is a great model, use it). Other sites who dont have harsh moderation CG, BA etc will suffer, sc2sea will not. TL will not. There are ways to bring across the same message rather than being so overtly negative

Sorry about the long quote but the OP just doesn't sit well with me and I guess this is the thread for this kind of discussion. The summary would be much more balanced coming from another mod with a separate Nirvana opinion piece (much of the 2nd half). For an impartial summary it's pretty heavily biased, anti-deL and exaggerated. Most of the balancing edits are highlighted.

Quick Comments

	[TA]LoSt:
	Nvdeth:	so much truth..
	faithHunter:	Respect.