[nirvAnA]

I'm gonna once again ignore that scarecrow post - this thread is meant for the fourm/tournament extension ban discussion don't use it as an opportunity to attack my character. Someone told me that TL does not allow banned users to play in their TL opens, and i've just double checked with them.

> Sender: bryan
> TL Username: aLt)nirvana
>
> Hey TL,
>
> Have a simple question.
>
> Are banned TL users allowed to participate in TL tournaments like for e.g the TL Open?
>
> Thanks


They are not.

Regards,
TL Staff

[NvRossi]

can the community or admins please be polled regarding this.

Quick Comments

inFeZa:

like it

[inFeZa]

Showcase SEA to the world.
Don't include all the best players.

[nirvAnA]

Maybe make a community poll on TL.net on their policy and get TL to change their stance on letting banned users play in TL opens too? (Which is sponsored by teamspeak, and im certain its not team speak deciding the ban issue) We can also get a good idea on their rationale why and more perspectives from a much wider audience/community.

Bans like this have always been something not everyone has agreed with, from the dimaga bans for win trading that was extended to TSL#3 (a completely different game) to the idra forum bans when idra did something not even on the TL fourms.

Idra asked his twitter followers to spam a mod I believe, and some cruncher incident - and he got banned on TL for his actions, as obviously TL did not want to encourage this type of behaviour, regardless of the players skill level / fan base so they took this stance.

[NvRossi]

weird justification as decisions at teamliquid arnt decided by one person, and i believe this community is very different to teamliquids.

Was just asking, didnt expect my question to be so undermined I don't really see a problem with polling the community regarding rules and i believe you did mention to Pinder that you were thinking about making a post regarding it...

[nirvAnA]

oh sorry i didnt mean to undermine your question, i really thought it could benefit getting TL's perspective and rationale for their policy, as a lot of the stuff on our site like the house rules and such are hugely influenced by them. also we get to see if they are willing to entertain such threads.

[TAScarecrow]

It must be nice never losing an argument. The TL ban affects an incredibly small number of tournaments and does not exclude a player from the scene. The modding is also impartial and decided as a team in the bigger cases (Dimaga's ban was deserved). Personally banning someone who insulted you with a one-liner from the scene for 4+ months is light years behind TL-quality moderation.

You just do whatever the **** you feel like and move a bunch of threads round. Delete some posts. Make sure your opinion is nice and prominent in the OP and bury criticism from the public eye. Then when you're called out you just shift the argument a bunch of times/claim the moral high ground/claim to ignore it. Sometimes you write it off as the 'same people' [as opposed to aLt members, underagers & sycophants] or 'just friends supporting each other' [just another way of telling someone they're wrong without having to engage in discussion]. Everytime you get shot down you just throw out another flawed argument (this time a fail TL analogy, before that a doping one) until the person you're against resorts to insults. Then you just claim the moral victory and avoid ever losing an argument. It must be wonderful having the judgement and leniency of a saint and tiresome explaining to us mere mortals why you're 'always' right.

Enjoy your powertrip, I can't wait till the rest of SEA grows up and realises they've got a deluded hypocrite at the helm.

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Maybe make a community poll on TL.net on their policy and get TL to change their stance on letting banned users play in TL opens too?

What about polling the TL community if they believe deth's ban was fair...?

[simon]

a beautiful post scarecrow! unfortunately it will never breach the sc2sea nirvana echo chamber!

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by TAChadMann

What about polling the TL community if they believe deth's ban was fair...?

No one is disputing deth's FORUM ban. pinder himself agreed the forum bans(including his and deths) were warranted. personal attacks violate one of the basic rules that apply universally on nearly every forum. futhermore the person in question has been banned 7 times after being given multiple chances, and by three different moderators - again proving it was not a "sole biased decision" that this person has violated the rules.

the crux of the matter is it being extended to a tournament ban. hence if TL is willing to entertain discussion of their ban policy like that, the TL community could be polled if they think TL forum bans should extend to TL tournaments as well since that is the stance TL has taken.

im sure nazgul gets the final say in TL matters, and when he feels its necessary he personally involves himself in carrying out the bans as well. From what i've seen he is someone with very little tolerance to bad behaviour and is protective of his moderators, regardless of the player skill level - hence the idra bans for an action Idra did NOT EVEN do on TL.

This was his statement:

---

IdrA was just temp banned for 90 days by Liquid`Nazgul.

Reason: A few days ago, one of our moderators (Chill) banned Idra for 2 days. After the ban, Idra encouraged his fans, through twitter, to harass and spam him on TL.

We spoke with Idra and he stated that he does not regret his actions and will not change his behavior on our forums. Thus, we've decided to ban him for 90 days. Regardless of whether he felt the 2-day ban was justified or not, we cannot tolerate a forum user publicly encouraging harassment of our moderators.

We understand that this decision may be unpopular among Greg's fans, but we have warned and banned him before about his conduct toward our staff members. We simply cannot accept this sort of abuse and insults directed toward our volunteer staff members who work very hard to make TL what it is.

---

No i am not comparing myself to nazgul. no i am not comparing sc2sea to TL. they are far bigger, respected and greater then i / we will ever be, but can you honestly look at these two situations and see no similiarities? What actions do you think nazgul would have taken if idra did that to him, instead of chill?

[TAScaramanga]

Idra's ban and Deth's ban are two very different circumstances, you can't justify this by quoting one ban -_-

[nirvAnA]

yes it wasn't exactly the same but it wasn't drastically different either. the reasoning for the ban provided by nazgul was

"We simply cannot accept this sort of abuse and insults directed toward our volunteer staff members who work very hard to make TL what it is."

which is basically one of the key reasons why personal attacks aren't tolerated on sc2sea either, especially towards mods/admins, and nazgul's line of reasoning is especially applicable to the situation here.

but again, that validates the FORUM ban which noone is disputing (apart from scarecrow?) not the tournament ban, and the extension to the tournament ban is what should be discussed, which brings us back to my post two posts up, about getting TL's perspective on their policy since its the same as ours.

[TAScaramanga]

You can't draw similarities between those two. Implying that deth's behavior was as bad as idra's and that the admin decisions handed down in both circumstances are even is just plain wrong.

[simon]

You keep trying to shoe horn terrible analogies down our throat which don't add up. It is clear you want so badly for the outcome of the idra ban to apply to deth when both their situations are very different. First of all the ban had no fleeting or lasting effect on idra personally, his career or his income and in my opinion it even helped grow his brand power and reputation. Deth incidently was banned from a drastically smaller community than TL in SC2SEA along with all tournament privileges which are critical to his aspirations as a competitive SC2 player who is unfortunately region locked to SEA due to financial/geography reasons. Leaving him literally shut out from the entire scene. Idra on the other hand publicly shrugged it off and continued to jet set around the world, sign autographs, date Canadian fan girls and continue to collect his massive EG pay check.

One was purely a token ban whilst the other actually had consequences. This means two people committing "similar" offenses receive drastically different real world punishments. Is this your overarching point you wanted to make when comparing the two? i hope not.

[JaFF]

Wow... just wow...

Nirvana built sc2sea from the ground up. He has done so much for the community that some of these posts are just ridiculous. Show some f***ing respect.

To those saying that the consequences of deth's ban is gonna be harsh on his potential career as a competitive player. Yeah, maybe. But then again, if nirvana had not put in the hours and effort that he did to make sc2sea such a success, most of us probably wouldn't even enjoy this opportunity in the first place. If you have an opinion on the matter, you should pm him or post a civil and constructive post. Not get all melodramatic and try to start some anti-nirvana movement.

Deth launches personal attacks at nirvana on a public forum and then gets banned from participating in tournaments that nirvana helms. Is that really all that surprising and preposterous?

Of course nirvana shouldn't be the one deciding on deth's punishment because it's hard for him to stay subjective. Of course these tournament bans are pretty devastating to an aspiring pro-gamer. But personally attacking a prominent figure in the SEA E-sports scene when you have so much at stake in it isn't all that wise either.

I think a big issue here is that up till now deth has not made an apology to nirvana. If he is all that serious about going pro, this should have been a no-brainer. And before people go "Oh so we got to agree with everything thing nirvana does??". Obviously not. Disagreeing with nirvana's decisions is fine, but personal attacks is a whole other story.

Regarding the duration/severity of the punishment of these cases, i feel it has to be judged on a case by case basis, preferably an unanimous decision among the admins. In fact, even if you do reverse the ban now (perhaps after an apology?), i feel that everyone has pretty much gotten your point - that personal attacks on the sc2sea forums is not going to be taken lightly.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[[TA]LoSt]

Originally Posted by JaFF

Wow... just wow...

Nirvana built sc2sea from the ground up. He has done so much for the community that some of these posts are just ridiculous. Show some f***ing respect.

To those saying that the consequences of deth's ban is gonna be harsh on his potential career as a competitive player. Yeah, maybe. But then again, if nirvana had not put in the hours and effort that he did to make sc2sea such a success, most of us probably wouldn't even enjoy this opportunity in the first place. If you have an opinion on the matter, you should pm him or post a civil and constructive post. Not get all melodramatic and try to start some anti-nirvana movement.

Deth launches personal attacks at nirvana on a public forum and then gets banned from participating in tournaments that nirvana helms. Is that really all that surprising and preposterous?

Of course nirvana shouldn't be the one deciding on deth's punishment because it's hard for him to stay subjective. Of course these tournament bans are pretty devastating to an aspiring pro-gamer. But personally attacking a prominent figure in the SEA E-sports scene when you have so much at stake in it isn't all that wise either.

I think a big issue here is that up till now deth has not made an apology to nirvana. If he is all that serious about going pro, this should have been a no-brainer. And before people go "Oh so we got to agree with everything thing nirvana does??". Obviously not. Disagreeing with nirvana's decisions is fine, but personal attacks is a whole other story.

Regarding the duration/severity of the punishment of these cases, i feel it has to be judged on a case by case basis, preferably an unanimous decision among the admins. In fact, even if you do reverse the ban now (perhaps after an apology?), i feel that everyone has pretty much gotten your point - that personal attacks on the sc2sea forums is not going to be taken lightly.

Come on.. Really? I haven't even posted about this topic, choosing to stay out of all the drama, but this post is just ridiculous. Why did you feel the need to post this..?

If you have an opinion on the matter, you should pm him or post a civil and constructive post. Not get all melodramatic and try to start some anti-nirvana movement.

Oh shit.. Why didn't anyone think of that? Oh wait..

Deth launches personal attacks at nirvana on a public forum and then gets banned from participating in tournaments that nirvana helms. Is that really all that surprising and preposterous?

That is the issue. sc2sea is the gateway for EVERY South-East Asian tournament hosted. Is TL the mediator of every tournament advertised on their site, and they choose who does and doesn't participate? No. The majority of the community feels deth has served his time.. This is the ******* internet; let the kid play the game hes sponsored to play?

I think a big issue here is that up till now deth has not made an apology to nirvana.

I feel like saying that this won't help at all, because everyone who has the slightest bit of involvement in any of this would know it's beyond this. This thread contains an apology for personal attacks before the TL thread. Do you really think an apology now, after all that, would change anything?

Your post has some good content. Here, I'll show you how you should've written it.

Originally Posted by JaFF

To those saying that the consequences of deth's ban is gonna be harsh on his potential career as a competitive player. Yeah.

Of course nirvana shouldn't be the one deciding on deth's punishment because it's hard for him to stay subjective. Of course these tournament bans are pretty devastating to an aspiring pro-gamer.

Regarding the duration/severity of the punishment of these cases, i feel it has to be judged on a case by case basis, preferably an unanimous decision among the admins. In fact, even if you do reverse the ban now (perhaps after an apology?), i feel that everyone has pretty much gotten your point - that personal attacks on the sc2sea forums is not going to be taken lightly.

Please, please do what a LOT of people are doing and sit on the sidelines for this one. It's not your fight, feel free to PM nirvana to let him know how much of a fanboy you are. Other than that, just sit back and watch the big boys do what they need to do.

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by lost

"Please, please do what a LOT of people are doing and sit on the sidelines for this one. "

I think you guys should apply this to yourself, there isn't a need for you to be involved in this lost. JaFF is just voicing his opinion, like everyone else. are u saying only TA should be allowed to voice their opinions and not neutral people? Didn't see you shutting tgun out when he said his piece, i dont agree with tgun's perspective but i know its a neutral one and i respect his opinion.

Also people should stop speaking for "the community". All of you represent TA's sentiment. TA is a segment of the community not THE community. Just as pinder said neg rep should be removed because "everyone" knew it was stupid system when it turns out the majority of the community want it to stay. and the world wide starcraft community AKA TL share the sentiment that banned users should not play in the sites private tournaments.

if deth wasn't a member of TA there wouldn't even be this thread. zan has been banned for over a year now and i dont see anyone championing his unbanning. NO i am not comparing deth and zan as people, i am comparing the fact they both had their fourm bans extended to tournament bans, and people are now demanding i apply different rules to deth because hes a "top player" and it "affects his livelihood". im also not saying anything bad about TA, there are a lot of people in TA i respect and am on absolutely fine terms with so dont get me wrong.

deth is only banned from two tournaments, the SEAL and SEASL. dont see how that is removing him completely from the scene. if he had Idra's ability he could compete with the rest of the world too and join every other competition, look what TargA did with NASL? Is it my fault too that deth lacks the ability so he can only compete in sea touraments? it was purely by idras own merit that the ban did not have that strong of an impact. and is someone saying nazgul's ban was token and meaningless? would love to hear what nazgul thinks about that.

also pple keep talking like deth was totally innocent and suddenly got prosecuted by some crazy power hungry dictator. everything deth did was brought upon to by HIMSELF. he hurt his own chances, his own reputation and his own team by the actions he did. i dont see glade or pig or any other top player getting banned from tournaments, simply because they will never do anything they know will harm their own livelihood.

and afaik deth works part time and thats where he earns his income, correct me if im wrong. he doesnt earn his "livelihood" from starcraft, and never has. sure he wins the occasional prize but esports in SEA is undeveloped and its not enough to go by, unless you always win everything, consistently, like glade. if anything, playing more starcraft means deth has less time to work and less money to make. so all this "livelihood" talk doesn't even make sense in the first place, there are only a handful of players in SEA that make a living purely off sc2.

As for the "apology"

deth never apologised, it was disguised as an apology, but it never was one. Anyone from a neutral perspective will be able to see that. His apology to fourby recently was a real and sincere one so he was perfectly capable of making something like that if he wanted to. a real apology would have been directed to me personally and privately first, not made on a forum circumventing the ban with the help of a friend "for show". It was a insincere last ditch attempt to play in the league, and when that failed he made the slanderous TL post to get back at me. again, not something someone who was sincerely apologetic would ever do.

theres a lot of harping and assigning blame on the decision of the ban when everyone else with a netural perspective could see it was deth's actions that resulted in the ban. dont want to be banned? dont want it to affect your "livelihood?" just behave like the other 9,000 users on the site and dont commit any offence that will result in a ban, especially something you have already been banned 7 times for. Whats so hard to understand about that?

Also theres some serious self entitlement issues going on here, everyone here should read the house rules again, which was drafted 3 months ago based heavily on TL's house rules. And if you dont agree just dont accept them.

[NvRossi]

and the circle is complete

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

indeed :) not to worry theres new circles every tournament

[simon]

After posts like that Nirvana you wonder why people grow so incredibly frustrated and start throwing ad hominem attacks at you. its ******* unbelievable your ability to constantly regurgitate the same bullshit statement time and time again even though new rational arguments continue to be brought forth from people. Its like you replaced your daily intake of water with the very same kool aid that jaff has so blatantly been gorging himself on.

[iM MaFia]

why cant you just ask if the sponsor soulja allows deth to participate or not?