[Trusty]

Hi guys,

Just want to share this replay, and maybe take some advice.
I scouted his early 3rd cc, so went into robo/gate timing. Did huge damage.
From there, there were some mistakes, but it comes down to the wire.

I am really unsure how to play this map in PvT past midgame, as all the chokes heavily favour a defense terran who drops.

Should have made more use of DT's, and should have taken 3rd earlier..

[Stallion]

blow by blow

opening
ok im going to write this as i watch the replay the opening attack was nice you saw his opening build. If your observer had gone straight in and saw that the wall was weak I'd go straight to 8 gate and kill him. A super fast 3rd inbase to me if the wall is strong though(which it isnt atm but he may buff it up id expand again hes already commited 400 minerals for it y not you? you have obs for vission and im assuming your going to get blink or charge for anti drop. After this you did a 6 gate immortal push and busted his front. A good move.

Behind the push
I noticed your not fully saturated on either base (2 and a half lines on minerals) so thats something to improve. You also didnt macro at all behind the push when hes in his main like that id suggest taking a few seconds and either expanding or chronoing your gateways or dropping 2 forges and simply get more ahead. You then went and attacked up the ramp into his concave which was excatly what you shouldnt have done and lost more army than needed. I feel when medivacs are out without zealot to tank dnt attack up ramps at terran although thats just me. In fact re reading this just go to pure outmacro him when hes on 1 base theres more than 1 way to kill someone one of them is killing his base but sometimes thats risky as in this case. The second option is to starve him and get 3 minings bases going and overwhelm him when hes allowed to expand.

Staying too long
I still feel you couldve taken a 3rd behind that push easily. He had plus one the whole time over you too maybe try getting ouble forge behind if your don't want to expand eventually just poking forward and back loses you your advantage without any macro behind it. Why do you keep fighting him? just pull back and keep forcefielding his ramp if you want to although medivacs are out so maybe not. Make him come to you sentrys give you an amazing defencive advantage. Pull back and get sentrys and +1 1 and you have an easy win staying and fighting on low numbers with terran having better upgrades isnt what you want to do as im sure you now know since i wrote it 5 times.

putting yourself behind
So the disadvantage of putting down a lot of tech at once is you have less money to spend on bases/army. I also think if you that far ahead and killed a lot of workers go dts force his mules into scans. You also didnt deny the 3rd at all when you couldve sent 1 zealot and spread army outside his base.

The Battle
He hit with + 2 2 timing and because you delayed your forges/expand so long you didnt have either a) a **** load more economy so you could pump out way more units or b) upgrades over him.

Little things can make a big difference
Your saturation per base is horribly off too look at replay and how many probes per base on mineral lines. Yea i feal from here on he has the advantage and just doesnt let go of it. The dt snipe was good but i think sending them to different bases wouldve done more damage economically and scout wise wouldve given you more intel. That's a multitasking thing and you did snipe a base so cant complain too much. Didnt even scout his 4th with those dts you really want to scout everything and leave dts just to force scans so theres less mules everywhere and it gives you map awareness. I'd also say you don't take bases aggressivly enough having now seen you have no 4th and over saturated on your 3rd by heaps. remember its better to long distance mine once you the max income rate of 2 and a half lines of workers per mineral line per base as over saturating doesnt increase you income and long distane mining gives you some extra. Your 3 3 started when his finsihed. no cancel on 4th. never got blink to avoid clogging in the chokes vs terran if your stalkers are in the way and you dnt have colos blink your stalkers to the side which also reduces damage from emps so the your zealots can charge through still not a good idea when your upgrades are worse but helps.

My main thoughts on where to improve :-
Your macro behind your aggression needs work either upgrades or expand (get more ahead)
Your early attack decision was good but your stayed too long you tryed to just insta finish it be patient
You got a robo for obs so use them for more map awareness. aka don't let him state your 4th for free.
Worker saturation check it and start using it to your advantage

hope this helps sorry if it sounds mean i have a very critical view when i analyse replays cos they are generally mine
gl hf
Stallion

Quick Comments

Flaunt:

good advice :D. no need to edit

[Apth]

Originally Posted by cruxStallion

blow by blow

Paragraphs/Headings/Bulletpoints are all cool things.

Quick Comments

Stallion:

i hope i attoned for my sins

[Stallion]

Originally Posted by Apth

Paragraphs/Headings/Bulletpoints are all cool things.

fine here comes the massive edit i didnt realise i wrote that much ><

Quick Comments

Apth:

Hooray :)

[Trusty]

The 3base defender's advantage on that map is so huge for terran - I didn't want to go to 3 bases, since T can easily keep 75% of his army in a nice concave up ramps, even at 3rd.

This allows him to counter easily say 25% of his force in medivacs.

Without the ability to hit your upgrades timings (i.e, double forge when you're up 2 upgrades etc), double forge really just falls to pieces.

I had assumed he had an island base for a long time, I think a single warp prism would have won me that game (given me piece of mind that I can hit any island expos).

Forcing scans with dt's is great vs 1 orbital, ok-ish vs 2 orbitals, but with 3+ it's really not helping you.

After I had destroyed his 3rd with DT's, I got majorly caught out of position in the centre of the map, where he was able to play ring-around-the-rosie right next to my 3rd.

I agree there were times when I overstayed, I didn't realise at the time I had a 30+ worker lead.

It's my first PvT on Sanshorn, but in the future I will make sure to 1 or 2 base all in, I don't see a way to win a macro game on that map vs Terran, since the core of your army (chargelots) are going to be useless 80% of the time on those ramps to his bases.

I also am very confused about where to take your 4th. Taking the 'generic furthest base' mean you're going to be hugely spread out in a line, all the while you're expanding towards your opponent. Look at metalopolis close air - You're spread out in a line if you take your 4th @ the opposite main, but you are expanding away from your opp.

I think Collosus was also a poor choice on this map, since you want to be able to hit 3collo timings against his fast 3rd - which will be pretty suicidal against a good terran who will have a concave formed up the ramp.

I also noticed I didn't resume probe production for AGES......

[Stallion]

The 3base defender's advantage on that map is so huge for terran - I didn't want to go to 3 bases, since T can easily keep 75% of his army in a nice concave up ramps, even at 3rd.

you have 3 bases to his 1 thats huge also cannons can help defend and I leave zealots for anti drop


This allows him to counter easily say 25% of his force in medivacs.

Hes trapped in his base hes worried about surviving he isnt going to drop 25% of his forces


Without the ability to hit your upgrades timings (i.e, double forge when you're up 2 upgrades etc), double forge really just falls to pieces.

Ok you miss the point here completly it isn't about hitting a timing attack for you as you have done the damage. It's about denying him the upgrade advantage and keeping your advantage and if he falls behind you get another advantage


I had assumed he had an island base for a long time, I think a single warp prism would have won me that game (given me piece of mind that I can hit any island expos).

You had lost the game way before he took that base an extra observer checking all his natural bases wouldve helped you map awareness a lot too


Forcing scans with dt's is great vs 1 orbital, ok-ish vs 2 orbitals, but with 3+ it's really not helping you.
Even so he has to save and spend them and for 2 supply its worth it ever time aswell as the map awareness you get which you really lacked

After I had destroyed his 3rd with DT's, I got majorly caught out of position in the centre of the map, where he was able to play ring-around-the-rosie right next to my 3rd.


Yes this shouldnt have happened you got caught out of position badly hence why im trying to tell you do get more map vision/awareness

I agree there were times when I overstayed, I didn't realise at the time I had a 30+ worker lead.
This is very true it is hard to realise when to pull back you gain it from experience. Just try to get more ahead it'll help you get better


It's my first PvT on Sanshorn, but in the future I will make sure to 1 or 2 base all in, I don't see a way to win a macro game on that map vs Terran, since the core of your army (chargelots) are going to be useless 80% of the time on those ramps to his bases.

Use a different army composition then ive changed my style as recently as last night so that im not relying on chargelots that are basically A move so if i get behind I can fight my way back into it.the simple answer to not wanting to fight at chokes is don't then you have sentrys use them to forcefield and use say a wrap prism to harrass where he isnt. There are lots of ways to play just because one stratergy is awesome on one map doesnt make it viable on all maps. Your hitting the level where you will need to be flexible in your play styles.


I also am very confused about where to take your 4th. Taking the 'generic furthest base' mean you're going to be hugely spread out in a line, all the while you're expanding towards your opponent. Look at metalopolis close air - You're spread out in a line if you take your 4th @ the opposite main, but you are expanding away from your opp.

The 4th you took was the right one you just need to be better at positioning your units to defend it in the best way for example i dnt think he should ever have gotten a 4th up that game.


I think Collosus was also a poor choice on this map, since you want to be able to hit 3collo timings against his fast 3rd - which will be pretty suicidal against a good terran who will have a concave formed up the ramp.

Ok first up the 3 colos attack is a timing attack when you are first doing the attack. The other thing is i agree you knew he had a starport up for ages imo the best option was dts into 3rd in hts into a colos switch if the game went long enough off a 4th. But hindsight is wonderful and im sure you will learn from it


I also noticed I didn't resume probe production for AGES......

yep as i noticed a lot


hope this helps too ^_^

taken your thought and my responces