[Halstrom]

Lots of great advice in here, and I admit I didn't read it all, but here are some simple bullet points to remember

Game strat:
- TvP has some nice timings where you can be a lot stronger then he is. My favorite is to Bio FE then push as my 3rd & 4th medivacs come out.
- Don't get to late game vs. Toss!!! Their 200 food ball will beat yours (almost) every time regardless of upgrades.
- Don't let P get 3 bases or it's over (mostly)
- If you fail 1 & 2 then you need to drop harrass him to death and expand. (Generally) The only way to break P then is to smash wave after wave against his ball to weaken it, whilst you out reinforce him.
- If you don't play off one base then beware the P one base attacks (4/5 gate, etc.). FE's require leading scouts far enough away from your base to let you pull SCV's to repair the 3-4 bunkers you MUST build vs. 1 base P.

Composition and Tactics:
- Bio is still strongest in the meta game, though more people are playing around with mech
- Even as bio you have to react to his unit comp. Zealot heavy = more marines, stalker heavy = marauders en-mass, archons = ghost (EMP), collosi = vikings
- Use stim and have plenty of medivacs
- If you let him ball, don't engage directly. Drop, harrass any vulnerable expo's, maybe even split your army and try and flank him (to kill colo)

Rules of thumb:
- 3/3 is a must for bio, and I like to get starship armor for medivacs as well when I get an armory.
- One you are up and running on 2 base, get double Eng bay to pump upgrades.
- EMP is a must against HT's and Archons, but is awesome against other balls too.
- If against HT's, bait him to storm then stim back out. With plenty of medivacs you can counter back once he has blown his energy, end your emp's will be more effective.
- When using EMP high priority targets are HT's, archons, and immortals in that order.
- It takes 14 vikings to 1 shot a colossi. When engaging more than a couple, feint in and out with your army to drag the stalkers forward, and hit with mass vikings from the sides.
- Trading vikings for collosi kills is ALWAYS correct (as long as you kill them). Collosi take a long time and a lot of resources to replace, and vikings don't. If all you do is trade away vikings for all his collosi then you will pull ahead as long as you keep macro'ing.


Anyways....some random thoughts. Sorry if I repeated anything from above.

[thsteal]

Wow thanks everyone for the continued support and help! I havnt been able to play lately but im planning on getting back into it today. wish me luck

[VandaL]

love the terran feedback.
we're like the overlooked child in sc2 while protoss gets all the good buffs.
anyway

1. How many vikings should i have per collosi on average?
3 or 4. sometimes its not even per collosi, if you have like 7 or 8 that should hold off 3 colossi regardless

2. What are some good timings to push forge fast expands?(How many units will they have when i first initiate etc)
if you see a ffe, get techlab on rax, build second rax,get tech lab on rax, go own him once you have 6 marauders and concussive shell

3. How do I kill a turtling protoss?
drops, aggressive expansions and 1414 production facilities, you're inevitably going to lose more during trade offs, so you need to re-max faster then he can

4. Are hellion rushes at all efficent vs 1 or 2 basing protoss?
no. they're at best cute. i mean against a good toss of course. if they let you sneak into their mineral line then any other strat you use against them would probably work

[sRDreaM]

Wow playing for a week and a half in High Gold and owning terran and zerg you come across impressive O_O

[Bloodmyst]

Basically you want 4 Vikings being produced for the 1st Collossi you see, if any more Collossi are being produced add another 2 Vikings p/collossi.

I find this is always enough for me and I don't really ever over produce in Vikings p/collossi. However, If you want to be that little bit exra careful, producing 6 vikings for that initial first Collo instead of 4 can be more safe.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by kiP

Basically you want 4 Vikings being produced for the 1st Collossi you see, if any more Collossi are being produced add another 2 Vikings p/collossi.

I find this is always enough for me and I don't really ever over produce in Vikings p/collossi. However, If you want to be that little bit exra careful, producing 6 vikings for that initial first Collo instead of 4 can be more safe.

15 Vikings 1-shot a colossus, so here are some numbers to consider

5 will 3 shot a colossus, less gets worse a lot quicker.
8 will 2 shot a colossus, so having 6 or 7 is no better than 5, so if you get more than 5 it should mean you're going to 8

edit: someone on TL mathed it to 14 vikings 1 shot a colossus, so that might be the magic number. Haven't checked it myself. Obviously you'd still want 5 to 3 shot a colossus but could 2 shot one with 7 instead of 8.

But yeah bear in mind the cost of Vikings relative to colossi. Having 7 or 8 Vikings to counter them is great, but that's 1200 minerals and 600 gas, so the optimal number when colossi are a true component of the army is not the same as when he only makes one or a couple and then stops

[ToRVenom]

my worst match up is PvT ,,, i am horrible against terran

[|Erasmus|]

it's not no better unless they have no anti-air. If you have 5 they only need to target one down so you no longer 3 shot a colo.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

it's not no better unless they have no anti-air. If you have 5 they only need to target one down so you no longer 3 shot a colo.

But then you introduce a whole bunch of variables like the position you engage, your own micro ability vs theirs, etc. You can't possibly account for them when it comes to theorycrafting - you can only math out a baseline and from there, it's up to you to decide what sort of buffer you need.

But you're right, "no better" was the wrong choice of phrase. Mathematically, there's no advantage but extras increase your buffer for units you may lose.

[sRDreaM]

How much stalkers would 1 shot a viking? just curious because good toss players would micro their stalkers to target fire vikings

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by breadfan

But then you introduce a whole bunch of variables like the position you engage, your own micro ability vs theirs, etc. You can't possibly account for them when it comes to theorycrafting - you can only math out a baseline and from there, it's up to you to decide what sort of buffer you need.

But you're right, "no better" was the wrong choice of phrase. Mathematically, there's no advantage but extras increase your buffer for units you may lose.

If you can position well enough and micro so well that you have 5 vikings constantly getting off a full volley without ever losing them, then have my babies right now...

But indeed... Just pointing out that trying to use a mathematical model for the number of vikings like that doesn't really help you figure out how many you need in game exactly. But those are still important numbers to know.

[Dox]

Originally Posted by MarineHero

How much stalkers would 1 shot a viking? just curious because good toss players would micro their stalkers to target fire vikings

9 stalkers with zero upgrades.

[sRDreaM]

Just watched iaguz stream and he threw in BC into his Marauder/Marine/Ghost/Viking compositions forced the toss to make more stalkers then zealots and I also think he also wanted to give the toss a hard time to decide whether to use feedback on BC/Ghost or Storm the Bio units he did it on 5 base I'm not sure if it would work on 4 bases

[ToRRedemption]

I had a similar post to this a few weeks back but to do with protoss deathballs and FaDekerrigan did one post and it changed the way i played against protoss i can actually take out the deathball now

This is what he wrote ALL CREDIT GOES TO FaDekerrigan

I'll just Theory craft if it helps. I'm having issues engaging the apparent 'Deathball' as of yet as Tosses are getting very capable at having a combination of highly upgraded Collosus, Templars, Archons, few stalkers and sentries and tons of zealots in the late game scenario.

Army Composition.

Note: In TvP, just like in ZvT, the Terran is usually the reactive race when it reaches the late game stage. (Minimum 4-5 bases each)

A typical composition would be

1) 30-40 Zealots
2) 3-4 Collosus
3) Handful of archons
4) 3-5 HTs

1) In the most ideal situation, a Terran should mass up his army composition accordingly. If the toss goes more Zealot Archon heavy, Marines should outnumber Marauders in approximately 3:1 ratio. This is because your Marines deal significantly higher DPS.

2) Vikings to Collosus ratio ideally is 3:1. Don't forget your Viking upgrades because the Toss is likely to have upgrades on par or even faster than you due to Chronoboost

3&4) Having Ghosts is an absolutely must. Prioritise the energy upgrade before going cloak(arguable). Likewise, time your ghost production such that it is in sync with the upgrade, therefore allowing your ghost to be able to immediately have enough energy to EMP. Same analogy as applied to Infestors. As for quantity, it would be ideal to have at least 2-3 more ghosts as compared to the total number of HTs the Toss has. This allows you to have a greater accumulated energy pool to snipe/EMP templars/EMP Zealot balls.

Positioning

Again, i will stress that this is the most ideal situation.

In most situations, it would be most ideal to engage in a wide open area unless your opponents lack AOE(Archons, HT Storm and Collo). This aids in maximising the DPS of your ranged army(Concave).
Arrange your bioball in such a way that it is parallel (in a line) of the Toss's army. You would want to avoid clumping to mitigate Storm Damage. Always place your marauders in front of your Marines. This is because 1) Marauders are tankier and allows your Marines a longer duration to dish out DPS.
2) Marauders have greater range than Marines. You would want them right at the front in order to slow(concussive shells) oncoming Zealots when Charge is on cooldown.

Pre-Clash

Before the clash ensues, scan to see if there's an observer. If there is, attempt to take it out with your long range vikings. After doing so, spare another scan, preferably towards the rear of the Toss army(path of incoming reinforcements) to ensure there's no incoming observer. Cloak your ghosts and attempt to take out the HTs. Beware of any Photon Cannons nearby. Usually, if the HTs are in a clump, EMP them. If they are spread out, Snipe. Ideally, you would want to Snipe the Templars in order to prevent the Toss from merging them into Archons. 2 Snipes per Templar. Shift queuing your Snipes will do you good. In the event that you do take out the HTs, blanket EMP the army , priority being Sentries then Zealots.

The Engagement and Positioning.

After dealing with the HTs, engage accordingly as stipulated above, preferably with cliffs so that your Vikings are out of range of Stalker fire. It would be advisable to target fire those Colossus down ASAP, by shift queuing the Colossus. This may lead to overkill but bear in mind that a competent Toss will also focus fire your Vikings with their Stalkers and attempt to retreat their Colossus.

I cannot stress how important it is to micro your bio ball. Attempt to dodge impending storms assuming that there is leftover/reinforcing HTs. At times, the Toss might unintentionally Storm his own Zealot ball. Continually kite and stutter step away from the Colossus while still in range of the Zealot ball. Additionally you might want to hot pick up your army which are sandwiched between force fields. Only do this if your opponents Stalker count is low/out of range. Tons of examples from GSL matches. Notable players include MKP and Puma.

Last but not least, have a group of preferably Marauders that are ready to flank any reinforcing HTs/Colossus. Build Planetary Fortresses nearer to your half of your map to buy you time to reinforce/remax after the clash assuming supplies aren't so drastically different



That is all the input I have for now. I cannot stress how difficult/APM-intensive this is but i urge every Terran ally out there to not give up till the day Blizzard responds to our cries of agony. If EG.Puma can do it, so can we right?

P.S ALL CREDIT DOES TO FaDekerrigan

[sourd1esel]

Since you have only been playing a little while I'm not sure ho much of this you will be able to understand. But since you are in gold you seem to be proficient and maybe you will understand it. I as having alot of trouble facing toss and then I saw this vlog. I highly recommend watching it and some of the other logs. It is very educational.

You Tube

You Tube

[thsteal]

Hey everyone,

Thanks for all the replys! people are still posting and I havnt been able to thank you all!

I havnt played since early february doe to personal commitments just got back into it a week ago and was placed bronze, since then im back to top 20 gold and things have changed a little.

Im at a 90%~ winrate vs terran and 75%~ vs protoss but i cant see to break zergs. ive tried hellion expands, drop play, mech, MMM etc but they just seem to expand expand expand then hit hive and roll over me. I have no issues vs roach play but ling baneling and ling baneling infestor play into broods/ultra seems unstoppable. What are some timings I can try hit when a zerg is in their weakest compared to bio play(I prefer bio play).

Also is it just me or is silver/gold/plat 99.999% zerg?
Thanks in advance

Thsteal

[sRDreaM]

Ling baneling infestor play is really difficult to play against imo

Some things to consider against that bo:
1. You should have a healthy count of medivacs since he won't have any anti-air except for infested terran and fungal from infestors (I personally always repair my medivacs)
2. If you have high apm and have multitasking ability you should try drop multiple places to do that you should drop at 1 base to pull the army and drop at the other bases with your other medivacs
3. Save scans when moving out because you want to know where his army is at
4. Try not to let your marines be to far front of your tanks you need your tanks in the front so infestors don't poke and fungal
5. Consider getting a Raven there's a chance that burrow banelings will come in play
6. There are some people who do this but once I get my starport I get 2 vikings to take out overlords from the top side and bottom side then I prepare my drops in play
7. I don't think many ppl do this but I usually make an extra starport with tech lab getting a raven and researching Caduceus Reactor to give my medivac more energy then switch over to reactor lab I usually have 3 base by the time I put my 2nd starport
8. Try to control xel naga towers to gain map vision also build sensor towers I started using them recently really helped me alot
9. Don't' try to waste your hellions at the beginning I do my best to contain the zerg on 2 bases as much as I can that I go as far to build 2 bunkers infront of his natural with hellions lol

Something I did when I was vsing a friend was that I float 1 of my barracks around and kept on creating some tech labs and so on so I could immediately switch to marauders if I see Ultralisk

Hope this helps

[Tushig]

Watch dApollo's youtube channel Protoss guides

[Bloodmyst]

Hey thsteal,

OK, so in regards to the T v Z match up;

Reactor Hellion expand is a GREAT opener to work on and once you start to get all your timings down, there are many other little things you can implement to well..... I guess maybe "optimise" your opening to get yourself that little further ahead. For example, bunker rushing into reactor hellion FE or depot block into Reactor Hellion FE... or even fake a bunker rush into reactor hellion fe.

Now the general tips I can give you in T v Z without any replays;

- With your initial hellions, just contain the Zerg with them and keep map control. However, in the event you see a major opening to line up and roast a good amount of drones, GO FOR IT. Many Zergs at Gold and even Platinum level you will find they don't block their ramp with a Queen to prevent a hellion run-by into the main (you get into the main with hellions, your laughing btw), so no Queen blocking the ramp = run in hellions for some roast drones! Also, sometimes you may even find the spine crawler has gone down late. If the spine is still in production and the Zerg does have a Queen blocking the ramp, go in to try and roast some drones in the natural expo, most Zergs will pull their drones from their natural to their main and you can just set your Hellions on "hold" behind the Natural mineral line (it's amazing sometimes how many free kills you can get from hatched drones/lings). Also, for those Zergs who actually do have decent defense against this opener (Queen blocking the ramp and/or Finished Spine at the Nat), just set your Hellions to patrol on the outer skirts of the creep just outside the Nat. Another tip I can give, plant 1 Hellion at the Zergs 3rd as some Zergs are sneaky and will try to get a drone past them for an early 3rd. Lastly, always keep double tapping on your Hellions to check up on them when macroing as frequent as possible to make sure you don't get surrounded by lings.

- Marine on 1 hotkey, Tanks on another. It's much more effective to target fire your tanks on the banelings then to just leave them to auto-target.

- A standard timing for Mutas to arrive at your base is around 10:30, give you an idea of when you need to start getting turrets/Thors up.

- When pushing, don't be afraid to push on creep. It's great to scan ahead when you have the energy or can afford to do so, but time and time again you will find that you don't have the energy or cannot afford it and instead need to call down a mule. So, stim single marines ahead to make sure everything is clear! This ensures a much faster and safe push. Another thing, sending out a single medivac drop on the main (decoy) can also help your main army push much faster into a favourable position as well. This brings me to my next point.....

- Once you have gained that advantageous army position, always pre-split your marines. It's much easier to pre-split your marines then by doing it at the last minute when you see a sea of banelings suiciding straight into your army.

- This one works well for me... but if your on 2 base, the Zerg is on 2 base and ain't expanding, there is no reason to push... just macro up, take a 3rd and defend. Zergs who are on the same amount of bases as a Terran is generally bad..... unless they are going for an all-in. If a Zerg wants to get greedy for some reason and take 2 x hatches at once after taking their Natural, you HAVE to attack! If you just let them put up hatches all around the map and don't pressure them, you will just get overrun. In macro games, many Zergs love to put up another 2 hatches for every 1 hatch you take out, in this scenario just keep up the pressure.

- If the Zerg is being really obnoxious and it's obvious his spending much of his APM on muta harass, go out, pressure him and kick his ass. Because most likely his trying to contain you so he can expand. Most of the time he will have to pull his Mutas back to defend. Most Zergs don't like to pull their Mutas to fight Marines head on But if you force them to, kudos for you.

- Lastly, always remember your bio upgrades It's so good seeing 3/3 marines up against Ling/Bling.

Oh and nearly forgot, practice your Marine splits on the "Griffiths Marine Split Challenge Custom Map." It's great to practice your splits on.

Well, I think that is all I have for now. Sorry for the wall of text, but I ain't got much else to do atm until my new computer arrives

P.S - For the record, I LOVE playing against ling/bling/muta or infestor.... I just feel in my comfort zone when playing against the composition. I just can't stand the infestor/Brood/Corruper composition, it's a bitch to deal with.

[syfCabracan]

This might have already been said, but if you are using several scans to check for dts and if you see them then you throw up a turrets/ebay. It would be better to use mules instead and just put the turrets up regardless. You want the double ebay for upgrades anyway and you might miss the dt tech with a scan so 100 minerals at your natural is not a big price to pay for another mule and more saftey