[Statix]

this keeps getting me everytime, some of this is down to me not getting the scout info of stargates and seeing a large army and assuming this is where all the money went . . only to have thse voids break though the 2spores and 2 queens per base

Is there any replays on this site which show and good engage against this. What ive got is pretty good and works ok SOMETIMES but i just get over whelmed.

What im looking for here is replays,

[Hybrid]

it would be due to your scout, never assume it will kill you every time! if i can scout on time i will get a few hydras out as it is a good counter to his gateway army to, if not i just use the queens to focus on the void rays while the rest of my army takes on his.

[lolwut]

http://terranimba.com/replay/4vl8wcFhI1

My counter . Btw that replay is pretty lols.

your gonna make air? I'll mass mah fking queens.

A good way to know if they are going air is. to check how many gaz they have and if they build more cannons than usual. Then you should sucicide ur overlord to scout their main and if they are going air start building dem queenies!

[Cordance]

Many people make the mistake of trying to see how to fight the battle not how to win the war. Meaning if you dont scout and have the right defense up doesnt really matter how you engage.

Against a FFE you should be looking at very quick third. With out a replay to watch I can only give you advise of what you should be looking for in your own replays. Any extra energy on your queens is you failing in macro. Any unspent Lava is another macro fail. FFE other than 4 lings you get out for scouting the front you really should just have a bucket load of Drones. In watching your replay focus on your macro first if you are sure it is solid then look to other things like unit composition and engagement.

[Stallion]

first off for scouting overseer should give you all the Intel you need

There are lots of ways to counter this and there are multiple ways of coming out of this void ray play.
1. more queens i simple solution that has to be made ahead of time the advantage is more creep spread the downside is less of your supply is in army and more multitasking
2.spores a few spores at each base with your queens on hold position can be effective at giving the void rays nothing. The downside being if the toss doesn't screw up you probably won't kill the void rays
3. hydras less mobile and sets your tech path into roach hydra. advantage is they can kill the voids and force them off disadvantage is toss knows your tech and will probably be going colos behind them.
4. infestors. they can fungal them in range of queens and spores or if you have enough energy fungal and infested terran to get rid of them. once again the protoss knows your tech
5. mutas. mutas are a common trend in zvp atm and mutas will trade cost effectively with the void ray but with a couple of phenox it can take a few more to make the trade worthwhile especially if the toss see the mutas before hand and keeps making phenox.

I hope this helps this is from my point of view as a protoss player if you would like to ask me on something else from the protoss point of view feel free gl hf

Quick Comments

Zenkoz:

nice =)

[Pox]

How many voids are you talking about that they can break through 2 spores and 4+ queens? If you have 2 queens per base like you say, you should have good creep spread by the time the usual 1-2 voids arrive, giving you the mobility you need to deal with them. I would also say 2 spores per base is probably overkill unless they're massing phoenix off 2 stargates - you're much better off with more queens against voids.

If it's a bigger, later all-in with many voidrays, you need to make either lots of queens or hydras. Infestors are great if you can catch them bunched into a single fungal, but not my favourite way to deal with it. In my opininon, mutas aren't a good response - if they come with a void+gateway all-in, they're pretty weak, and the protoss has the obvious phoenix transition open to prevent them from doing any damage later.

The main issue is probably scouting. You should be able to get 2 overlords in position to sacrifice over their base at the 7-8 minute mark; or alternatively you can use an overseer and a changeling if you go fastish lair.

[SLCN.NXZ]

Originally Posted by cruxStallion

first off for scouting overseer should give you all the Intel you need

There are lots of ways to counter this and there are multiple ways of coming out of this void ray play.
1. more queens i simple solution that has to be made ahead of time the advantage is more creep spread the downside is less of your supply is in army and more multitasking
2.spores a few spores at each base with your queens on hold position can be effective at giving the void rays nothing. The downside being if the toss doesn't screw up you probably won't kill the void rays
3. hydras less mobile and sets your tech path into roach hydra. advantage is they can kill the voids and force them off disadvantage is toss knows your tech and will probably be going colos behind them.
4. infestors. they can fungal them in range of queens and spores or if you have enough energy fungal and infested terran to get rid of them. once again the protoss knows your tech
5. mutas. mutas are a common trend in zvp atm and mutas will trade cost effectively with the void ray but with a couple of phenox it can take a few more to make the trade worthwhile especially if the toss see the mutas before hand and keeps making phenox.

I hope this helps this is from my point of view as a protoss player if you would like to ask me on something else from the protoss point of view feel free gl hf

This post is just a little bit wrong, first off, you should never ever ever have an overseer in time to see a stargate off ffe. Sac an overlord at 7 mins if you want but the voidray will be at you're base way before you're overseer is out in almost every circumstance (when taking a fast third, PLZ DO THIS BTW).

Generally you want to be grabbing a safety spore at each base at around 8 minutes, adding more at whichever base he attacks initially and getting a few more at the other 2 once you've secured the initial location. Ideally you want to make queens from every hatchery but this is not THAT necessary. However, if he decides to go 2 stargate those extra queens will help you tons and also give you and amazing creep spread going into the midgame.

While you are defending the attack you should be droning to around 80 drones while grabbing all 6 gas and teching lair. You want to begin roach production the moment you reach saturation otherwise you might die to a followup voidray gateway attack. When you're lair finishes immediately grab a hydra den and start roach speed. Get enough hydras to kill his air force out then you can transition back into you're initial goal for the mid game. Once you're hydras come out try and use them to secure a 4th base. Then just transition back into you're initial goal, naturally if you were going ling bane (morrow style) don't get the roaches and make lings instead. Likewise if you're going infestor ling or muta ling (will be off 2 base in that case) just wait for you're tech of choice to come up while using a spore or two at each base to stall.

[Stallion]

Originally Posted by NXZ

This post is just a little bit wrong, first off, you should never ever ever have an overseer in time to see a stargate off ffe. Sac an overlord at 7 mins if you want but the voidray will be at you're base way before you're overseer is out in almost every circumstance (when taking a fast third, PLZ DO THIS BTW).

Generally you want to be grabbing a safety spore at each base at around 8 minutes, adding more at whichever base he attacks initially and getting a few more at the other 2 once you've secured the initial location. Ideally you want to make queens from every hatchery but this is not THAT necessary. However, if he decides to go 2 stargate those extra queens will help you tons and also give you and amazing creep spread going into the midgame.

While you are defending the attack you should be droning to around 80 drones while grabbing all 6 gas and teching lair. You want to begin roach production the moment you reach saturation otherwise you might die to a followup voidray gateway attack. When you're lair finishes immediately grab a hydra den and start roach speed. Get enough hydras to kill his air force out then you can transition back into you're initial goal for the mid game. Once you're hydras come out try and use them to secure a 4th base. Then just transition back into you're initial goal, naturally if you were going ling bane (morrow style) don't get the roaches and make lings instead. Likewise if you're going infestor ling or muta ling (will be off 2 base in that case) just wait for you're tech of choice to come up while using a spore or two at each base to stall.

i generally get overseered scouted half the time so hence the overseer comment and i was more pointing out options over anything im not a zerg player i dnt know which way is best also if i open stargate after froge expand i want zerg to go hydra what i don't want is muta or curropter plays mainly cos curropters shut down colos and phenox in 1 go and enough mutas hidden like the way eldrid generally does is the way i lose vs zerg manly after forge expand. :P

[kookielah]

Sorry to go off topic but I love how you guys actually helped him instead of just ranting at him to search the forums noob like happens on team liquid alot +1 community

Quick Comments

	Meatex:	you can actually +1 these guys posts by clicking the heart at bottom left
	lolwut:	:)

[Stallion]

haha its cos sc2sea.com is awesome and me and NXZ are both crux so this is actually helping us know the thought process of the other one too :P

[neKo]

7:30 overlord sac, 2 spores @ 3rd /w queen, and try to get 4 queens (2 in main 2 in nat) Use the 2 non injecting ones to help whatever base is in trouble, and if they go for main/nat then you have all 4 to deal with.

That's just a simple way to defend it, just remember if the stargate doesn't deny your 3rd you are pretty much ahead by miles.

Sorry for such a short writeup compared to the 2 guys above me, but it is very simple, and that's how I deal with it.

[SLCN.NXZ]

I recommend hydras tbh, simple thing is if you were going roach ling into muta, investing into hydras and a few less drones doesnt effect you're final muta count very much at all. If you go straight for the corruptors or the mutas he can abuse you for the 100 seconds the spire to finish. Allowing him to do more dmg before you can push him back reliably.

It also is a pretty weak response to any of the 2 stargate all in builds. If you go mutas and he went 2 stargate phoenix you're in huge trouble. If you go corruptors and hes gone mass voidrays it is the same. Especially considering if he goes mass voidray and you go for mutas he can immediately start chronoing out the 2 stargate phoenix. Just go hyrdas , itt'll make everything so much simpler and easier than any other response. also remember that 7 minute evo chamber and roach warren, its crucial to defending this timing and a multitude of gateway pushes.

@stallion I think the reason most people overseer scout is because they're going 2 base lair for mutas or infestors however even the quickest lair that you can really afford off three base only gets an overseer in his base by the time the voidray reaches yours. Generally its just better to sac that overlord at 7 mins or 7:30 like neko said just to confirm the threat a bit quicker. I would recommend doing the delayed lair in zvp vs ffe anyway, its a much simpler build to pull off then the fast lair stuff that you see ret (sometimes) and stephano do.

[Statix]

holy hell dudes, thanks for the info! The problem is i kind of game sense this happening, my over lord gets picked off MOST times which is why i know this is happening, force fields with grnd army against his manages for him to pick enough off and then in come the v rays, i walsy put 2 spores in my min line and notmally have 2 queens pre base at this point . . they just get picked off. Its notmally when the vr's are more than 8 of them or so. its just hard and he takes down structures and knife through butters the queens and the spores . . on some games ive gone super crazy and thrown 8 spores dowm. they still get picked off. I think ive developed a build for this anyway (its probably already exists but its just fast roaches and take down the froge and cannon in his nat to get lings into line. Got to get mutas up for the all time harass which turns the battle, get missile and caparapace with a 3rd fast as you say so that the larva and money just produces roaches and mutas . . . its kind of working in yabot but im terrible at creating the ffe for the toss so play agianst. my toss buddys are not as good as me and i cant get a prac partner!

[Cordance]

Originally Posted by Statix

holy hell dudes, thanks for the info! The problem is i kind of game sense this happening, my over lord gets picked off MOST times which is why i know this is happening, force fields with grnd army against his manages for him to pick enough off and then in come the v rays, i walsy put 2 spores in my min line and notmally have 2 queens pre base at this point . . they just get picked off. Its notmally when the vr's are more than 8 of them or so. its just hard and he takes down structures and knife through butters the queens and the spores . . on some games ive gone super crazy and thrown 8 spores dowm. they still get picked off. I think ive developed a build for this anyway (its probably already exists but its just fast roaches and take down the froge and cannon in his nat to get lings into line. Got to get mutas up for the all time harass which turns the battle, get missile and caparapace with a 3rd fast as you say so that the larva and money just produces roaches and mutas . . . its kind of working in yabot but im terrible at creating the ffe for the toss so play agianst. my toss buddys are not as good as me and i cant get a prac partner!

Try scouting scout the front with a ling at the same time as overlord scout using way points (shift clicks for moving) with any luck he will move his units out of position to shoot the ling. Watch replays and see where people place their tech in their base so you can aim him better. Just a few things to throw out there.
Once a few void rays are charged in your base your in trouble. Try spacing your overlords around the outside of your base. This will mean the death of an overlord but hopefully mean the void ray will not be charged when you move your army/spores into position. Sometimes you might need to sacrifice some buildings you dont want to to make sure your engaging non charged voids.
As far as prac partners ask around and Im sure there are people out there that have the skills and the build dont be scared to go up against someone significantly better than you are going to plan your build and both are going to know what is happening. OR at least you should know what he is generally doing it evens the field out a lot vs higher players.

[Loach]

Watch Day[9]'s daily on Stephano's ZvZ (I think it's 388? recent one)

I don't think that FFE to voidray should be the build to counter, i just think you should be looking to counter the FFE and scout for following up builds.