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MezjE · Sun, 18th-Aug-2013, 6:09 PM

Admin Note: The posts from this thread originally appeared in the "xGking joinvs AVANT!" thread. They were moved here to resolve / discuss any old issue without derailing the new thread announcement. MezjE's OP actually happens after post #15 in this thread. Everything else is in chronological order. Have fun!

The AV Experience

Please read all the logs included within the spoilers, they are arguably the most important part of the blog!

Ok first of all I went to get a few things out of the way before I dive in to the nitty-gritty...

I am making this blog purely to show how AV treated my team and some of my closest mates over a short 3 months, when I was told we were getting dropped before the conclusion of our contract at an event with no prior knowledge of anything I knew I had to say something. I didn't want the switch to happen and everybody think we got what was promised and were not resigned as AV were picking up xG instead. The reality was we got very little and the little we did get took far too much effort to get.

Many people think managing a team is easy and that people do it just for free stuff despite not actually being a player. Over the last two years or so I have learned that management is far from easy, in fact eSports as a whole is a tough cookie to crack.

Now lets get down to business...

After the controversy with ToR we went in with extreme hesitation and I had many a talk with Spartaz and the boys over what was right to do. Once we looked at all our options we realized AV was probably the best choice as it offered us the most and the contract wasn't that long, only 4 months so if shit were to hit the fan we could just wait it out.

I remember being talked about a lot regarding the players skill levels and was very upfront that our best players were only about the level of NXZ and Pezz, we are no better than ToR in terms of skill at all. Management seemed ok with this and we agreed I would look for a tier 1 player to add to the roster during the the 4 month period. Unfortunately AV as an organisation has no idea about the SC2 scene and it was hard to explain that tier 1 players don't just appear and cannot be poached.

So eventually we signed the contract and weeks went by with no word of gear. I asked Wes about it a few times and eventually was pointed to Seth, Seth and I talked a lot and I was told that gear gets rushed out for big events, here is how our conversation went down:

+ [Seth and I discussing how long gear is taking] +

Now note this was on the 14/6, we never received anything until 28/6 ([28/06/2013 5:22:34 PM] Maxim 'MezjE' Allen: The stuff arrived today. Any chance of shirts before the LAN in Melbourne?), and it was all sent to me, it then cost me $30 to send it out to RuineD and Malice and another couple of days for shipping, This didn't phase me too much as it is just 3 players (even though we only received gear for 2) but for the WoT team I can see how this would be VERY painful having ~11 players all around AU and NZ...

+ [WoT Manager having to mail everything] +

So then came the issue regarding gear getting mailed out. What blows my mind is how the distribution of product works. So not only are things sent to the managers and then redistributed, or lugged to a LAN and handed out but everything is sent to Wes himself whom lives in regional WA and can't drive, no wonder everything takes a while, he has to order a courier to drive to his house, pick up the items then wait for them to send it... Apparently however this is getting fixed and gear is getting sent to Seth, I sure hope so because that system is ridiculous!

So when was Savior's gear coming?

Any idea when that would be?
[12:30:40 AM] Wez AVANT, AVANT Systems: nop
[16/05/2013 12:31:13 AM] Maxim 'MezjE' Allen: Dw David I will make sure you get some.
[16/05/2013 12:31:20 AM] Maxim 'MezjE' Allen: Hopefully is isn't too long.
[16/05/2013 12:36:29 AM] Maxim 'MezjE' Allen: [12:35:55 AM] Wez AVANT, AVANT Systems: Keyboard: ROCCAT RYOS (IN MAY/JUNE)
[12:36:00 AM] Wez AVANT, AVANT Systems: brand new kb
[12:36:03 AM] Wez AVANT, AVANT Systems: they not out yet

Ah ok no date, damn

but oh! Keyboards? Awesome! As May/June approached though we received no word of the KB's apart from that Roccat wanted to give them to the LoL team. Then at PAX Malice and I were at the Roccat booth and were told it wasn't coming out until October now, communication is a key part of running any organisation and it surprises me how such a premier org like AV can be in such shambles...

+ [Roccat makes the rules] +

After discussing what teams had what I was mind blown to find out the team that had signed the latest was the only one with a full set of gear, this is apparently because Roccat picks where it goes. However after having discussions with some anonymous people within AV I was informed that it was CSGO's WayToLadsy whom called the shots, would make sense given the orgs FPS orientated views as mentioned by Seth in the xG thread.. WayToLadsy was also the one working at the Roccat booth at PAX so it makes sense, this however is not confirmed and pure speculation. Also this would mean that AV hasn't actually received ANY gear from Roccat since ToR were on board, what is that 4 months now? Given as you will read below we couldn't get ANY replacement mice for ACL as the ones they gave us were faulty...

+ [What the other teams have] +

Seems a bit abysmal to me.

At this stage I was starting to give up as generally replies took weeks and nothing was happening, I was very upset I couldn't help the players simply due to a lack of communication from Wes and Seth, mainly Wes. In specific anything regarding a tournament that wasn't AVCon or ACL seemed to be tossed aside.

+ [Being ignored] +

So eventually ACL rolled around and we got our shirts, thank god we at least got them, still though both the mice we were given for Malice and RuineD were faulty just as the LoL team had reported and would not be replaced before ACL but should be used for 'photos'...

I have been tlaking to Wes and both players who have mice (XTDs) are having a fair few issues similar to the ones the LoL people had.
[29/07/2013 5:40:49 PM] Seth Touchette: um
[29/07/2013 5:40:51 PM] Seth Touchette: lol
[29/07/2013 5:40:57 PM] Seth Touchette: dem mice
[29/07/2013 5:40:58 PM] Seth Touchette: x__x
[29/07/2013 5:41:19 PM] Seth Touchette: Aight, well we wont be able to get replacements for them
[29/07/2013 5:41:29 PM] Seth Touchette: tell players to bring their own mice, we might just have to get photos and shit

ACL was a great time though and meeting the AV Blops team was great, I really got along well with Kyle and a few of the other AV boys. We had our entry for OB paid and everything was looking good. Until everything took a turn for the worst. We were pulled aside and told that xG were replacing us seemingly with immediate effect and we were no longer needed. We saw it coming but to tell us at a live event we were still competing in is very harsh. Also not mentioning a single thing about it beforehand, effectively going behind our back and finding another team is pretty rude in my opinion. Then we got told they ran out of money and couldn't pay group fees, more will be explained later on regarding this.

So I decided I may as well threaten them of exposing the mess that is AV management etc if the players didn't get the gear they were promised only to be told my players are effectively bad and not respected in the SC2 community by someone who knows nothing about the scene.

+ [Seth telling me my team is BM etc and a resolution is formed] +

+ [Seth apologises then kinda backflips] +

So all in all you can see how our experience with AV was. I REALLY hope they are good to xG as KK etc really deserve their support and are great players unfortunately I have been told they have a div1 and div2 system in place with only KK in div1, I am just waiting to watch support for all the div2 players to completely drop off and as I said in the xG thread be able to say 'I told you so'. Please prove me wrong AV, PLEASE!

Another thing I want to note is the decision making, I was told at ACL the fray LoL team hadn't been paid for AVCon and this was later explained to me by Seth, I hope you guys get paid soon as it is a fair bit of money I am sure you need and deserve. Then I was also informed that AV is buying a second organisation (Sequential Gaming) and asked to buy Qlimax-Crew a page that they did not realise I had admin on, this is mind boggling in my eyes as the amount of money (~1.5k) I heard was going in to this is absurd given the lack of support to players and me being told they are literally broke until next quarter (October)...

[1:23:29 AM] Seth Touchette: mind leaving the chat or do we have to make a new one?
[1:26:22 AM] Seth Touchette: and why are you posting the blog
[1:27:08 AM] Seth Touchette: I mean, if it happens it sucks, but we're more focused on next year anyway. We had every intention of reembursing you next quarter when we got paid by our sponsors
[1:27:10 AM] Seth Touchette: so
[1:27:11 AM] Seth Touchette: x_x
[1:27:58 AM] Maxim 'MezjE' Allen: I wsa going to post the blog regardless just depends really on what I decide to include in it. I will leave the chat once I sought everything out.

I still expect what was agreed to in the resolution and what is stated in the contract to be carried out.

+ [From the contract] +

Here is what we have as of now and what we are awaiting as discussed previously:
- 3 Mice (2 Faulty)
- 2 Mouse Bungees
- 2 Mouspeads
- 4 Shirts

What is outstanding stated inn the contract:
- 3 Headsets
- $50 for groups and Malice's travel costs of ~$30

In conclusion I can say myself, RuineD, Savior and Malice were very unhappy with our time in Avant. The lack of communication and respect between players and management was disgusting and it makes me sad a premier organisation such as AV could now do this to two SC2 teams, hopefully third times the charm. Also buying other brands, announcing sponsors left right and center whilst not supporting players is truly disgusting and makes me feel as though their players are expendable.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. There maybe be a few spelling and grammatical mistakes in which case I apologize for.

EDIT: More evidence from MKR (MackRo) whom was part of AV's senior management for a long time before Wes took over in a response on the thread I also made on cybergamer:

I know from personal experience and talking to wes that he has taken stuff for himself before handing/sending stuff to player's even had one of the player's come and complain to me about it 2 weeks ago. Mind you this is maybe 3 or so months after i was kicked from AVANT.

"oh man
i dunnno
how u delt
with wez
for so long
with out kicking him"

"what hasnt he done
wait
he hasnt done
anything at all
i was ment to get my avant jersey"

"gg for wez stealing all the products
to make his own computer"
(Not going to name this person or say what team he is from)

Quick Comments

deL:

It's cos you're like 12

FantasyStarr · Mon, 19th-Aug-2013, 9:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Av.MezjE

Don't say we didn't warn you, looking forward to saying 'I told you so'

Matt: I told Satu and Arnor a lot about how miserable our experience was. Long blog will be up tomorrow.

So tell us why we should have kept you over XG. You guys don't play in any weekly tournaments. I'm a LoL Manager and I can see you not making your players do anything to represent AVANT and their sponsors and not even as yourselves as players. I'm looking forward to see what you blog you will post up

Quick Comments

	Matt93:	because XG aren't a team you **** over like you did tor.
	MezjE:	My head hurts at how clueless you are.
	Satu:	If you want to defend avant, get your facts right first. Otherwise, leave it to people who won't make us look bad.
	asdfSchnitzel:	Sigh*

SLCN.CautioN · Mon, 19th-Aug-2013, 9:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fantasystarr

so tell us why we should have kept you over xg. You guys don't play in any weekly tournaments. I'm a lol manager and i can see you not making your players do anything to represent avant and their sponsors and not even as yourselves as players. I'm looking forward to see what you blog you will post up

shots fired pew pew pew

Quick Comments

	ToRPandarine:	pew pew pew bang bang bang ratatatat
	asdfSchnitzel:	kadoosh pewpewpew

Malice · Mon, 19th-Aug-2013, 9:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FantasyStarr

So tell us why we should have kept you over XG. You guys don't play in any weekly tournaments. I'm a LoL Manager and I can see you not making your players do anything to represent AVANT and their sponsors and not even as yourselves as players. I'm looking forward to see what you blog you will post up

I have played in wT weekly almost every week since being in Avant. Why should I represent a team that can't even pay my $30 train tickets to an event because they're 5k in debt because they ran a tournament they can't pay for?

Quick Comments

	syfChadMann:	Snap.
	ToRMcLovin:	+1

MezjE · Mon, 19th-Aug-2013, 9:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FantasyStarr

So tell us why we should have kept you over XG. You guys don't play in any weekly tournaments. I'm a LoL Manager and I can see you not making your players do anything to represent AVANT and their sponsors and not even as yourselves as players. I'm looking forward to see what you blog you will post up

I will do a brief summary...

I asked for many things that were never given, it took weeks for anything to be replied to, the boys do play in weekly tournaments, you know nothing. I got told by management my team was not respected and bad pretty much then told at an event that they were getting a another team BEFORE our contract was over without having even fulfilling their part of the bargain. Then telling me 'soz we ran out of money'. I was removed from the FB page because someone was 'drunk'. I have been a manager for a while and have had my fair share of rough times but this treatment was utterly disgusting and no player should have to go through it.

Sorry you don't see how bad everything is their, probs blinded by the team house etc you are getting promised, have fun playing LoL. The blog tomorrow will be more in depth and feature Skype logs, the fact I had top practically threaten senior management to get anywhere is a testimony to how horrible the level of communication is there and the lack of respect to anyone they don't think will perform. Can't wait to watch KK get treated like a king and everyone else tossed to the side!

frequency · Mon, 19th-Aug-2013, 10:09 PM

This thread proudly brought to you by Poppin Popcorn, Australia's leading microwave popcorn brand.

Poppin Microwave Popcorn burst onto the scene in 1991 and has been turning a movie night at home into a cinema experience ever since. Poppin is proudly made from Australian corn and is a source of fibre. Poppin Microwave Popcorn isn’t just for eating while watching movies at home either. It’s also a great lunch box treat or delicious snack for the whole family.

Quick Comments

	Seffy:	ROFL best post.
	syfChadMann:	Win.
	ROOT`iaguz:	QUALITY
	Mayo:	#1 eSports drama sponsor

Hwangje · Mon, 19th-Aug-2013, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frequency

This thread proudly brought to you by Poppin Popcorn, Australia's leading microwave popcorn brand.

Poppin Microwave Popcorn burst onto the scene in 1991 and has been turning a movie night at home into a cinema experience ever since. Poppin is proudly made from Australian corn and is a source of fibre. Poppin Microwave Popcorn isn’t just for eating while watching movies at home either. It’s also a great lunch box treat or delicious snack for the whole family.

I prefer the triple butter explosion ones soz

Quick Comments

syfChase:

agree.

Seffy · Mon, 19th-Aug-2013, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frequency

This thread proudly brought to you by Poppin Popcorn, Australia's leading microwave popcorn brand.

Poppin Microwave Popcorn burst onto the scene in 1991 and has been turning a movie night at home into a cinema experience ever since. Poppin is proudly made from Australian corn and is a source of fibre. Poppin Microwave Popcorn isn’t just for eating while watching movies at home either. It’s also a great lunch box treat or delicious snack for the whole family.

This episode of SC2SEA brought to you by Poppin Popcorn.

In this episode, Av. now has a new team consisting of the former Xeria Gaming boys managed by Arnor. Will Av finally get their shit together? Or will the players join the other two former teams and call Av out on their ever so known bad management of SC2 players?

Stay tuned on SC2SEA.

SethT · Mon, 19th-Aug-2013, 11:15 PM

Wrote a pretty impressive couple paragraphs only to be gutted by my archnemsis, the F5 button. I'll do an official reply after work tomorrow, hopefully before this monster of a blog gets released.

Regarding AVCON money, 1st Place LoL boys and SC2 have all been paid. Just waiting on the additional funds for the last two LoL teams. It will be paid, even if both Wes and I have to bankroll it ourselves.

Quick Comments

MezjE:

One sided? I will copy paste to pastebin everything said between Wes, you and I from joining if you want.

SethT · Tue, 20th-Aug-2013, 12:52 AM

Change of heart, turns out I emailed it off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FantasyStarr

So tell us why we should have kept you over
XG. You guys don't play in any weekly tournaments. I'm a LoL Manager
and I can see you not making your players do anything to represent
AVANT and their sponsors and not even as yourselves as players. I'm
looking forward to see what you blog you will post up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Av.MezjE

I will do a brief summary...

I asked for many things that were never given, it took weeks for
anything to be replied to, the boys do play in weekly tournaments, you
know nothing. I got told by management my team was not respected and
bad pretty much then told at an event that they were getting a another
team BEFORE our contract was over without having even fulfilling their
part of the bargain. Then telling me 'soz we ran out of money'. I was
removed from the FB page because someone was 'drunk'. I have been a
manager for a while and have had my fair share of rough times but this
treatment was utterly disgusting and no player should have to go
through it.

Sorry you don't see how bad everything is their, probs blinded by the
team house etc you are getting promised, have fun playing LoL. The
blog tomorrow will be more in depth and feature Skype logs, the fact I
had top practically threaten senior management to get anywhere is a
testimony to how horrible the level of communication is there and the
lack of respect to anyone they don't think will perform. Can't wait to
watch KK get treated like a king and everyone else tossed to the
side!

What? You've never gotten drunk and made a mistake before? Bit of a low blow. Your entire post just feels like a whole lot of over exaggeration in terms of how 'badly' you were treated. As an individual, you were given the same respect as any individual or team that first joined the organization. Respect is earned, not just given freely, and you have done very little to deserve it from any of us.

Your threats were little to us compared to what we felt was the right thing to do. We felt that we should come through with what we had initially included for you guys.

I took you aside @ Lan and respectfully explained why we had decided to do a line-up swap, more importantly I explained why. Our goals for next year are to have a SC2 player we can send internationally. Better than most I think. You guys seemed like decent blokes IRL, hell if I could fund people on just being nice guys, then you would pass the bar. A lot of the SC2 guys I met @ Lan last weekend seem like top blokes.

I don't really like posting things that leave a sour taste in my mouth. I'll leave this on a positive note, after meeting the ex-xG blokes @ ACL, I'm really happy to have them onboard. Cool guys who I think will fit right at home with the rest of the teams. Suffice to say we just keep learning and learning from SC2. Believe it or not, I want AVANT to be established as a positive point in the SC2 SEA world. I'm aware it’s going to take work but hopefully come this time next year, we would've come to earn this communities respect.

Quick Comments

	Matt93:	Being inebriated isn't a defense man. It's going to take a lot to make avant positive, youve fucked over too many people
	RuineD:	atleast we got our gamecon headsets. o wait.

SLCNPezz · Tue, 20th-Aug-2013, 1:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SethT

You guys seemed like decent blokes IRL, hell if I could fund people on just being nice guys, then you would pass the bar. A lot of the SC2 guys I met @ Lan last weekend seem like top blokes.

This was how ToR felt we were treated, like second-tier players who aren't "worthy" of Avant's almighty sponsorship.

Sure, we were second tier players. We were good, but we weren't pig/iaguz/moonglade/kingkong etc material. Let's be honest, you couldn't AFFORD those types of players. You NEED to be aware of who you're picking up and what you're promising BEFORE you recruit players. You can't backpedal midway through picking up a team and start berating the team and saying "you're just second tier so we feel we have no obligation to do any sort of funding etc".

That's pathetic, people aren't going out of their way to promote your brand for nothing. It's insulting to the players involved, and will only damage relationships.

I suggest you become aware of who you're dealing with before you recruit them, rather than deciding midway through the relationship that they should continue representing you whilst you do nothing for them.

This is exactly why I didn't want to sign that phony contract, it gives Avant all of the power and the players are promised nothing for it. You can decide not to give the players anything, whilst they will still have to represent you.

I'm really glad I joined SLCN, they have been far superior in every way to Avant. I'm not angry at you personally Seth, but Avant reeks of unprofessional behavior.

I'll be interested to see if you have a response for this, and if you feel like you've wronged anyone with this mentality that you put on display in a public forum.

Quick Comments

ToRMcLovin:

:D

SethT · Tue, 20th-Aug-2013, 2:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLCNPezz

This was how ToR felt we were treated, like second-tier players who aren't "worthy" of Avant's almighty sponsorship.

Sure, we were second tier players. We were good, but we weren't pig/iaguz/moonglade/kingkong etc material. Let's be honest, you couldn't AFFORD those types of players. You NEED to be aware of who you're picking up and what you're promising BEFORE you recruit players. You can't backpedal midway through picking up a team and start berating the team and saying "you're just second tier so we feel we have no obligation to do any sort of funding etc".

That's pathetic, people aren't going out of their way to promote your brand for nothing. It's insulting to the players involved, and will only damage relationships.

I suggest you become aware of who you're dealing with before you recruit them, rather than deciding midway through the relationship that they should continue representing you whilst you do nothing for them.

This is exactly why I didn't want to sign that phony contract, it gives Avant all of the power and the players are promised nothing for it. You can decide not to give the players anything, whilst they will still have to represent you.

I'm really glad I joined SLCN, they have been far superior in every way to Avant. I'm not angry at you personally Seth, but Avant reeks of unprofessional behavior.

I'll be interested to see if you have a response for this, and if you feel like you've wronged anyone with this mentality that you put on display in a public forum.

Just going to answer paragraph by paragraph.

When you print it out straight black and white like that it makes a lot of sense. I'll flat out say again, we're learning and this whole 2nd tier mentality you're talking about has come straight from our FPS / LoL backgrounds (related to the co-owners) where being the best = funding.

100% agree with your suggestion, already something that's been noted down when I reflected on everything.

The original contract that we sent you was rubbish, I agree. Our final rendition (not sure whether you saw it or not) has worked so far, anyone who goes ahead and informs us its a bad contract, I'm willing to argue that to the bone.

Can't really / not my place to comment about SLCN, inregards to SC2 previously in Avant, couldn't agree more. We've shaped up the rest of the org for what we have planned upcoming / next year, with Chris coming aboard we intend to make sure xG get the best / smoothest possible reception internally and for the duration of the contract.

Regarding this mentality, I'm an honest person and I prefer speaking what I feel. I generally try and incorporate what I feel into the posts I made, which is why a lot of the time I suck at this PR business. To answer your question, whatever I say now I feel won't be an accurate reflection. I'll sleep on it, think about it, then reply sometime tomorrow. Suffice to say you've at least got me thinking.

Quick Comments

MezjE:

FantasyStar's comment only further proves this.

ToRSpookToR · Tue, 20th-Aug-2013, 2:22 AM

you are all ******* muppets

Quick Comments

	ROOTPetraeus:	<3 spook
	Dox:	sage
	syfChase:	spook post best post
	ToRMcLovin:	trust
	sR_Osiris:	lets go team spook ??

**Dox** · Tue, 20th-Aug-2013, 9:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SethT

What? You've never gotten drunk and made a mistake before?

Straight from a rape trial episode of Law & Order SVU!

Quick Comments

ToR.Arnor:

cheers, ^_^

Hwangje · Tue, 20th-Aug-2013, 9:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dox

Straight from a rape trial episode of Law & Order SVU!

P.S. The OP is a big mess and needs to be tidied up.

You Tube

Quick Comments

Seffy:

Goddamnit this is what happens when your rep posts are off.

frequency · Tue, 20th-Aug-2013, 6:34 PM

Hey, I know more than borderline nothing.

Quick Comments

RuineD:

thanks for your contribution, you helped a lot.

ROOTPetraeus · Tue, 20th-Aug-2013, 7:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Av.MezjE

Poker and Myuu are the same skill level Malice and Savior

shots fired

Quick Comments

	RuineD:	malice certainly is now, savior definitely was at the time.
	MezjE:	Savior hit NA GM at the time and Malice is vgood atm, I stand by my word.
	SLCN.Kez:	I'm sorry but you really cant say malice, poker myuu and savior were or are at the same level
	Malice:	^ I personally agree

**iM tgun** · Tue, 20th-Aug-2013, 7:02 PM

Generally if they're unwilling to give up the person they're getting information from (in regards to who is good in the SC2 scene), they're not getting information from anyone. They're just making shit up.

Reading through this, I can't say I'm surprised. 90% of e-sports orgs are like this.

Quick Comments

MezjE:

+1 sad feels but we still love it<3

ToRMcLovin · Tue, 20th-Aug-2013, 8:36 PM

thanks for the blog mezje, i wish you luck in the future

ToRsupapower · Tue, 20th-Aug-2013, 9:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FantasyStarr

So tell us why we should have kept you over XG. You guys don't play in any weekly tournaments. I'm a LoL Manager and I can see you not making your players do anything to represent AVANT and their sponsors and not even as yourselves as players. I'm looking forward to see what you blog you will post up

Retard....

Quick Comments

	Seffy:	+1
	eCKo`Switch:	REKT