[InteGrand]

Mafia seems to be very enraged at chobo. More hostile than he needs to be to able to deal with the problem level-headedly. Mafia is a gosu pro so this game obviously means a lot to him, and reading over some of the accusations he's made and what chobo/delete in defense, I can't help but think Mafia is putting a lot of unnecessary personal anger into this. Could mafia be over-reacting due to losing to chobo who he probably considered to be out of his league?

As a humble noob, speaking against mafia will probably result in a painful and gory death on sc2sea. But I feel like there need to be more level-headed posts from different perspectives.


And protoss imba.

Quick Comments

	jayaiwhy:	you're fucked now, inte.
	AxSGRiM:	could protoss really be op?
	mGGAequitas:	what does protoss have to do with anything??
	TABiggun:	no need for more opinions, last thing we need
	iVnStinger:	I feel you man, but it does not contribute to the case at all
	MooZfY:	yeyeyeyeye
	PiG:	I agree mafia's opinion shouldn
	ROOTPetraeus:	protoss ez
	Champi:	is MVP the next zerg bonjwa?
	xGKingdelete:	more pointless neg rep?

[ROOT`iaguz]

You're not talking about the games. We're only allowed to talk about the games. Sorry Grand.

Quick Comments

	Fourby:	You are talking about inte, not the games. Sorry gayaguz
	xGKingdelete:	^haha!

[NvRossi]

Originally Posted by InteGrand

Mafia seems to be very enraged at chobo. More hostile than he needs to be to able to deal with the problem level-headedly. Mafia is a gosu pro so this game obviously means a lot to him, and reading over some of the accusations he's made and what chobo/delete in defense, I can't help but think Mafia is putting a lot of unnecessary personal anger into this. Could mafia be over-reacting due to losing to chobo who he probably considered to be out of his league?

As a humble noob, speaking against mafia will probably result in a painful and gory death on sc2sea. But I feel like there need to be more level-headed posts from different perspectives.


And protoss imba.

mafia actually didnt consider he hacked at all until evidence was brought to his attention and then he made his own resolution based off his own analysis into multiple replays.

Quick Comments

	Fourby:	This is true
	TABiggun:	this is what happened

[Meatex]

Somehow I think if he has time to think about how to throw off observers by making something seem like its not hack then he wouldn't do anywhere near as well as he is, just saying.
Numerous pro's have said that if you are trying to think things through in game you going to pay for it.
I know that playing against something I have no idea I miss injects, overlords, timings etc Basically I play significantly worse when i'm trying to think in game rather than interpreting and adapting along pre-made plans.
Also if he has been hacking for as long as people say he has been then I would think he wouldn't be keeping up with all the "making it seem like not hacking" or "for observers" tricks that would take a lot of time.
Personally I think countering some counter evidence with "he just did that to fool observers" is not valid. Either that or he's extremely disciplined and continued to do said tricks here and there despite nobody suspecting him of hacking for many, many months.

Not saying he isn't hacking because I agree that there are some suss things but also I can see some evidence being given too much weight. Problem is no evidence is conclusive just lots of small suss things but I think thats not enough.
I think chobo should submit ALL replays he has of his games and perhaps be suspended from future online tournaments unless he is able to stream them or at least provide recorded video of himself playing said online tournament. Or he should take some time to play live games at a LAN or internet cafe to provide some control games with which to compare
Many of these suggestions were made during the evets hacking drama

Even though some won't want to hear it he cannot participate in any tournaments while his status remains as is. The tournament will just get derailed if he did ragardless of whether he hacked or not unless definitive prove can be provided that he didn't (live game or video recording or streamed if the online tournament stream properly uses a delay)

[InteGrand]

But couldn't he have been pissed at the loss initially, then went with the findings and realized 'that noobie can't possibly beat me has to be map hack.'

If you want to believe someone is map hacking, then everything he does will look like a map hack, and same goes on the contrary.

Quick Comments

	Sedz:
	TABiggun:	Please just go away.
	Strafe:	I don't know Mafia that well, but he seems to be the last person that would do any of what you just suggested.

[AxSGRiM]

Originally Posted by InteGrand

But couldn't he have been pissed at the loss initially, then went with the findings and realized 'that noobie can't possibly beat me has to be map hack.'

If you want to believe someone is map hacking, then everything he does will look like a map hack, and same goes on the contrary.

If he was pissed off initially, Rossi wouldn't have posted first.

[Xenomorph]

Originally Posted by Sedz

There's absolutely no reason for me to take this lightly when I am Clan Captain of AsG and I have to read a bunch of retarded stuff by bandwagoner's. Cmon dude, if this was your clan you'd be doing the same.

You're right in that there's no reason to take this lightly, but I had almost the EXACT same reaction when MeaNySPR was accused of maphacking. My advice, please don't blindly defend your clanmate before seriously taking a look at the evidence. I made that mistake with Meany's situation, and it had negative effect on SPR's image. Don't repeat history.

With all this being said, I had a few games back vs YaMaMa in the past, he mostly did retarded all ins though, so I assumed it was just cheesey play. I'll take a look in my replay log.

Quick Comments

	jayaiwhy:	MeaNy is awesome :D
	TABiggun:	These are the kind of posts we need, something that actually contributes
	Synizta:
	mGMUSE:	wise
	mGGDaedalus:	true words
	RicocheT:

[UHF]

Originally Posted by NvRossi

only the initial flight plans are relevant imo as the rest could simply be a guise to distract observers. The accuracy of the initial attack paths, especially the 3rd game is irrefutable. All overlords are taken out with the first attack path.

Ok - take the game against Mafia, at 9:20 his initial Viking goes straight to the Overlord and it looks like hacks.

However, at 6:28 - Mafia reveals his overlord when Chobo builds his natural. Chobo immediately see this as he is moving an SCV to build his 3rd - and temporarily moves the SCV to the overlord direction before clicking back to make the 3rd. It's very subtle and it is easy to miss.

+ [Image of revealed Overlord] +

So when you see the Viking move directly towards the Overlord at 9:20ish - it seems like he is hacking, however that is the last known location to Chobo.

Originally Posted by cR.ChadMann

Great effort -
However, the pathing is actually significantly different - screens worth of different locations and the pathing is very, very close to alot of overlords. This does as much to disprove he is a hacker as prove it tho.. In the replays - are there always Overlords in those locations? does the similarity in play from the zergs explain the similar flight paths of the viking?.. knowing there are Ovies there.

But this evidence does help..

The actual flight plans are so close it's uncanny. The left image was against Mafia - the middle/right images is the FLIPPED version of Enders game. The right image was the initial flight path - however he hits the main and there is a Queen there. He deviates and the middle image is the new flight plan.



He uses the same flight plans (not paths) in all 3 games - and makes changes along the way depending on what he encounters - one game its a Queen, the other is a whole bunch of other units. However he always does the same plan.

The only game that is slightly different which is against Peleus - a practice game with no bearing and never intended for viewing. The only real difference in the flight plan here is that instead of checking behind his nat/3rd, he cuts straight across. HOWEVER he immediately sends Marines to scout the back of the 3rd after the Viking has left, even though there is nothing there to be scouted.

I think the overlords being there is all coincidental and the 3 zergs that he played all use similar overlord scouting paths. In my mind that's far more plausible then Chobo being some mastermind hacker that has the foresight to trick us to believing he is 'scouting' his 3rd with marines that he missed scouting with his viking and even though there is nothing there he just has to check to make us THINK he is scouting.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[ROOT`iaguz]

People, people, we're only supposed to be talking about the games!

THE GAMES!

Quick Comments

	Strafe:	down repping this, cuz your comment didnt entail any info about the games
	EveVendetta:	well his post did contain the word 'THE GAMES' strafe ;)

[Sedz]

Just also noticed that on the Shakuras game, there was a huge period of time where CHobo, if he was map hacking, would be able to take advantage of the huge period of time after he kills a lot of Mafia's lings, where Mafia just drones up with 4 lings and 2 spines, he has 14 marines, and can easily move out to stop droning and force units and apply pressure. But the typical terran thinking in this case, when you're stuck in your base, is that you have nfi what's out there and don't want to move out and just sit behind your wall, and that's what CHobo does.

[Peleus]

I hear you guys like lines on pictures - Ok.

Here are the viking paths and overlord positions from each game. It's not just the paths that are important (UHF's pic), it's what's on them and how they go about intercepting overlords. The (X/Y) is how many overlords he picks up from the run out of how many are on the map at that time.

Yellow = Ender
Blue = Mafia
Red = Peleus


Dots represent overlords on the field at the time the paths were set (not corners like the other picture, though I could understand the mistake looking at this).



Edit @ UHF - You did paths, you didn't include where the overlords were at the time which clearly paints a different picture if you have the knowledge. Remember my dots aren't corners like yours. I.e. Look at the difference between the red path and yellow / blue with when there is / isn't an overlord behind the nat / third.

Quick Comments

	UHF:	i already did this lol
	crAzerk:	he wants rep too
	RicocheT:	Although a bit late, you went to all that effort. Have some Rep!
	syfChadMann:	yes but the pathing is different and very accurate to the overlord positioning..
	NvRossi:	good effort!
	ROOTPetraeus:
	Champi:

[TABiggun]

Originally Posted by Sedz

Just also noticed that on the Shakuras game, there was a huge period of time where CHobo, if he was map hacking, would be able to take advantage of the huge period of time after he kills a lot of Mafia's lings, where Mafia just drones up with 4 lings and 2 spines, he has 14 marines, and can easily move out to stop droning and force units and apply pressure. But the typical terran thinking in this case, when you're stuck in your base, is that you have nfi what's out there and don't want to move out and just sit behind your wall, and that's what CHobo does.

Look at chobo's view from 5:20 to 6 min. There is a random look at the main at 5:30 then also his random pull back when seeing 2 queens and 2 spines.

[Sedz]

Originally Posted by TABiggun

Look at chobo's view from 5:20 to 6 min. There is a random look at the main at 5:30 then also his random pull back when seeing 2 queens and 2 spines.

This is long after this. I explained my reasoning to this before.

Needs clarification, but when he looks into the main at 5:30, the camera stops for a brief period of time onto the second gas, now looking at that position, he is barely able to see the baneling nest which is in the top right part of the screen, just enough time to click on it, but surely the hack would centre directly onto the nest or he would click closer to it? Then he flicks down to the natural VERY briefly to set a rally point.

Also, the look at the natural happens BEFORE he pulls scv, surely if he was hacking he'd see the spines and queens, and choose to not bring scv's but pressure with marines instead?

Quick Comments

TABiggun:

I dont think mafia was making lings when he pulled the SCVs

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by Sedz

This is long after this. I explained my reasoning to this before.

Needs clarification, but when he looks into the main at 5:30, the camera stops for a brief period of time onto the second gas, now looking at that position, he is barely able to see the baneling nest which is in the top right part of the screen, just enough time to click on it, but surely the hack would centre directly onto the nest or he would click closer to it? Then he flicks down to the natural VERY briefly to set a rally point.

Also, the look at the natural happens BEFORE he pulls scv, surely if he was hacking he'd see the spines and queens, and choose to not bring scv's but pressure with marines instead?

What do you mean by "the hack" would centre on it? Do you mean "If he was hacking he would centre on it" or do you mean "The hack has some magical properties to detect baneling nests and centre on them"

If it's (a) then perhaps he realised that he didn't have his camera lock on and didn't want to go scrolling around the base. If it was (b) I don't know what to say...

[Sedz]

Originally Posted by Peleus

What do you mean by "the hack" would centre on it? Do you mean "If he was hacking he would centre on it" or do you mean "The hack has some magical properties to detect baneling nests and centre on them"

If it's (a) then perhaps he realised that he didn't have his camera lock on and didn't want to go scrolling around the base. If it was (b) I don't know what to say...

This is what I wanted clarified, what I meant was, I always thought that hacks would alert you and lock onto tech buildings when you scrolled near them.

Quick Comments

Dox:

all it does is remove the fog of war yo!

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by Sedz

This is what I wanted clarified, what I meant was, I always thought that hacks would alert you and lock onto tech buildings when you scrolled near them.

Not to the best of my knowledge (raises several problems i.e. what's a tech building? spawning pool = bane nest = roach warren = any zerg building, it's basically impossible)

Quick Comments

RicocheT:

I failed rep in your other post with the diagram, moved it here :o

[NvRossi]

http://drop.sc/191948 a replay i did some analysis on, might aswell add it to the pool

Incriminating TvT vs Strafe

2:30+ Scouts proxy rax immediately, staring at the exact position of it as his scv scouts…. In his other tvts I’ve watched… all 11… he never scouts the natural once with his scv.
3:50 really interesting rallies for his marines and they are immediately cancelled once the racks is spotted… slightly confusing but don’t know what this means
7:44 Very interesting Turret timing… it is fairly late for a banshee followup with this build and chobo has 0 access to information other than the fact he’s seen a hellion. He hasn’t seen any gas and he hasn’t scanned his opponents base. Banshee followup is common for this build but this is definitely shifty. He also appears to be saving a scans at both his natural and main orbitals.

11:00 moves out to check tower and kill proxy barracks… seems normal however he leaves nothing at the tower.
11:15 Strafes army is coming into intercept chobos although chobo has no information of this at all. Chobo appearas to be returning to the tower when he makes an extremely weird decision to pull back to a highly defensive position and only then sending a marine out once strafes army is directly outside the base.

12:15 he has seen strafe head over to the left, doesn’t confirm this by sending out a unit out the front path and proceeds to head over to the left to deal with the attack. Also doesn’t continue to fly is Vikings above the army? Wtf?+
13:58 well position Vikings catch a glimpse of strafes army coming through the middle. 1
14:20 continues to click directly on top of strafes army. Can be fairly argued that he knew it was heading there but still very interesting and worth pointing out.

16:40 happy to disregard the entire left hand side of the map and push out towards the bottom right hand side.

19:30 attack moves towards the tower killing the scv there and notifying strafe of his movements and proceeds to stim and run into the natural of strafe WITHOUT A SCAN?!?!?!?!!??!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! ?!!?

These are the suspect motions I noticed throughout this game. he does however make some decisions that may be very questionable if he was hacking in this specific game.

Quick Comments

	Peleus:	Clearly high level stuff to notice, but you'd be the most reliable source for that
	TABiggun:
	UHF:	I'll check this out later today.

[iM MaFia]

Originally Posted by Sedz

Also, the look at the natural happens BEFORE he pulls scv, surely if he was hacking he'd see the spines and queens, and choose to not bring scv's but pressure with marines instead?

The reason why he would have to send his scv's is because when you do 4 rax if you don't send your SCV's its more obvious your hacking than if u do.

It's also another reason why he purposely sent his scv's later than usual and only half way, (less travel distance back) he already planned to send them back home cause he knew he was never commiting to that attack. That has to be the biggest clue, this is why earlier when Rossi said you were just a Masters player giving advice, your understanding of the game is no where near the top level where we are.

EDIT: Also it explains the literally less than 1 second decision when he saw 2 spines he sent back his SCV's immediately packed up and turned around, even top pro gaming terrans can't make decision's in that situation that quickly, let alone chobo

Quick Comments

	TABiggun:	I agree, he has to send them
	PiG:	You're very biased in this situation. Sucks but not many will take your opinion for meaning much on this..

[NvRossi]

Another incriminating game

http://drop.sc/191950
Incredibily weird game.... Strafe is 6 pooling and chobo sends one of his first scvs to scout yet only scouts the creep and pulls his scv back home.

from 0:08 to 0:27 0 actions are made from chobo....WHY?! he delays building his scv significantly and doesnt do anything with his proxy scv..?

Edit: one thing i want people to think about in this replay is why he sent that proxy scv and why he wouldnt be making actions for a 19 second time frame after sending a proxy scv... in my personal opinion i find this suspect. The result of the game is irrelevant.

he then gas firsts and loses.... in every other game he gas firsts he does not build his depot at the wall... i can happily provide replays of this if necessary... ( edited in http://drop.sc/191955(definitely not hacking in this replay) and http://drop.sc/79789(some very suspect things in this rep however))

replay pack of him vs strafe.

http://www.mediafire.com/?55g3g2xp3yhlvkb

I'll keep looking for more... would love for more people to send me replays

heading to sleep for now!

Quick Comments

TABiggun:

[iM MaFia]

Originally Posted by InteGrand

Mafia seems to be very enraged at chobo. More hostile than he needs to be to able to deal with the problem level-headedly. Mafia is a gosu pro so this game obviously means a lot to him, and reading over some of the accusations he's made and what chobo/delete in defense, I can't help but think Mafia is putting a lot of unnecessary personal anger into this. Could mafia be over-reacting due to losing to chobo who he probably considered to be out of his league?

As a humble noob, speaking against mafia will probably result in a painful and gory death on sc2sea. But I feel like there need to be more level-headed posts from different perspectives.


And protoss imba.

This has nothing to do with me being mad, I have nothing personal against Chobo for beating me. I don't think anyone here likes people hacking in tournaments or people being accused of it but when there are a bunch of top players in the community who are bringing it up its an issue that has to be resolved no matter what.