[AssyrianKing]

Protoss that is.

Lately, I have been watching the forums and the complaints of different progamers and even users of TeamLiquid. Even reading the Interviews of Korean players.

The line that caught my attention the most was none other then our very own Bisu
" I like aggressive styles, but SC2 protoss needs to play defensively"

Also the recent interview at MLG from qxc, he talked about PvT being a broken matchup because of the warp-in mechanic, and that there really isn't anything to stop it extreme late game unless you max mules and have a 200/200 army, a feat that surely should not be required to do.

Then comes the unit design. Starcraft II is known for some of its units for having poor unit design.
The unit I absolutely hate the most (besides stalkers cos they look ugly and zealots because in my own opinion their stupid charge design) is Colossus. It is the most boring piece of crap unit that reminds me of a crap movie and when watching PvP as we witnessed at the last finals, IT IS BORING TO WATCH! Like sure you can watch it once or twice, but every single bloody PvP is like that, its linear and its boring! I would just seriously just cut the colossus and bring back the reaver, deadset.

In BW, PvT and PvZ were very entertaining matchups, and PvP showcased a good respectable matchup of micro and REAVERSS~~~ which made it so exciting. SC2 Protoss is way too 1 dimensional for me, or for anyone to enjoy, surely even the progamers, I truly believe that Protoss needs a change so #1 The race is fun to play and #2 The race is fun to watch!

[Meatex]

yeah i much much prefer the dynamics of zvt where you have multi pronged attacks used to distract zerg while terran takes mid or attacks at main and then things like ghosts harass late late game
ZvT is a really interesting matchup both to play and watch (with the exception of turtle mech)

ZvP is boring 99% of the time. Oz v stephano was interesting cause he didn't just sentry immortal all in or turtle to deathball. I have a lot of problems with protoss design making it a boring race to watch and to play against but it will never change so only option is to just grit your teeth and play protoss or go watch porn when its a PvX in whatever tournament you're watching

Quick Comments

FsDronesInJail:

Hmmm porn good idea :D!!!

[AssyrianKing]

ZvP isnt THAT bad, im more focused on the issue of PvP which just drains sc2
Though I have to agree ZvP would be much more entertaining if Zerg had lurkers and not roaches and Protoss had reavers~ :P

[SLCNPezz]

I think the protoss race is fine as the game goes on it keeps getting better.

[ProAnnn]

Originally Posted by pezzaperry

I think the protoss race is fine as the game goes on it keeps getting better.

Whatever this guy says.

ZvP may not be fun to watch but its really fun to play.

There are a million 2 base allins from protoss. There's so many 3/4 base zerg can do if protoss wants to get a third. You can see zergs going bane drops / mutas/ fast ultras /stephano roaches.

Its versatile!

What i really hate is TvP where its just MMMGV vs Collo HT Gateway stuff. Its too boring

[ROOT`iaguz]

Protoss have ability to be aggressive in TvP. MC and Squirtle show this constantly. Most protoss choose not to because it's incredibly risky for a race that has observers to be doing daft blink stalker/sentry prism timings or whatever silly shit MC is up to.

The problem that a lot of Protoss have is they struggle (in PvT anyway) to harass whilst macroing. They can do a few pressures or funky builds but when medivacs and stim finishes they more often then not are on the backfoot and have to wait it out. And that's fine I think, that's just how Starcraft works. There are times when one player can do shit and the other player has to chill the **** out until he can do something.

Lategame TvP is ******* annoying as hell though as Terran a lot of the time. I constantly get demolished by Protosses that I have huge economic leads against, and if you have an upgrade advantage/parity at some point well you don't really cuz of chronoboost. If you're floating shitloads of minerals well your mineral dump unit gets murdered by storm/colossus whereas theirs can actually take a punch so that's fun too. And yes the 30 warpgate dynamic is super awesome. I dunno it's tricky.

Quick Comments

sRDante:

100% agree with the last part, lategame dts are a pain in the ass as well.

[Shieldz]

like i think tvp can be a bit better but like the game is like this its not that easy to change

[DUCKVILLELOL]

I would love it if DT's were accessible earlier. One of the main ways I play was to use DTs as much as possible, and it was hard I'll admit - but with the recent Overlord speed buff there is actually just no point even trying, unless you hide it somewhere because the Zerg is almost always going to see the tech.

From a commentating perspective I'd love it if the colo went byebye and the Reaver came back - scarab shots were INCREDIBLY tense and fun to watch back in the BW days.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	The reaver was that exciting because of the buggy 1998 engine. luck needs to be minimized
	TADivinity:	This isnt true at all ahah?

[AssyrianKing]

Guys im focusing more on the problem of PvP!!!~~

Quick Comments

breadfan:

You can't redesign an entire race based on one matchup alone.

[ToRSpookToR]

lol 4 gate dt at 6.30 or when ever it hits...

[DUCKVILLELOL]

You mentioned all the matchups though! :P

I'm fine with PvP at the moment. I would like to see more people using phoenix styles, but after I started using my new style I'm actually having far more fun with it.

I think that (again) the colo is the problem in PvP that can lead to it being "boring" - because of those shitty colo v colo battles in the more standard form of play, but it can be entertaining sometimes.

That said; it's another HUGE example of the "glass cannon effect" in Starcraft 2, whereby 1 small mistake and bam you're done. Prime example of this is Flying vs Hero(bw version, not TL) - from Proleague on Saturday. There was a huge battle with colo/archon/zeal vs colo/archon zeal - but Hero had badly positioned himself, and a couple of archons were out of the battle and that was it. Flying had a huge concave, smashed through the majority of Hero's army, and bam.

I think that's part of the problem people have with PvP standard play, and perhaps SC2 in general to an extent. I know even in BW there were some times when you would lose a big army and you'd be in a shitload of trouble; but it wasn't always a situation of "well shit, gg bro". For example in BW if you were Terran and you were doing standard turtle-mech, and your opponent is doing carriers, smashes your tank/vult army; you'd be in a bit of trouble - but on like 5-8 fact you can hit up a bunch of goliaths and fight your way back. You can't always fight your way back in SC2 simply because of the magnitude and power of the units - in that Flying vs Hero game, there is no way to catch back up to your opponents colo count if you lose a few of your own. And making a tech switch (to dt/phoenix or something random) just isn't viable either.

end rant.

Here is the Flying vs Hero game I was talking about if you're interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=-D_VKjghNkQ

[Meatex]

the whole smashing big army into big army is a general problem with sc2 design
It's never fun watching that and I think its a big problem causing loss in viewers of events compared to LoL

In LoL there is always "action" to watch but that kind of situation is rare in sc2 games. Maybe a little early harass or poking but so much of it is watching players try to get the upper hand in macro, unit composition. As a player I can appreciate the exciting moments of oh my god he is getting drop to deal with the timing thats coming soon and then the excitement as the opponent sees that and switches his play to more defensive and so on. To average spectator though no action is happening

Now watching TSL the other day with major verses hyun (TvZ) and there was almost constant attack in the final 3 games. Hellions everywhere and it was so intense and exciting to watch
There isn't that aspect in protoss because it encourages deathballing and straight rush timings too much.

Quick Comments

Dingobloo:

"action" might be the most unintentionally hilarious thing in this entire post.

[inFeZa]

The race is fine. redesigning it would be stupid. gah.

Originally Posted by iaguz

Lategame TvP is ******* annoying as hell though

As for PvT Late game, i've noticed a lot of pros going really ghost heavy, like 16-20 or so ghosts! and you have so much emp no matter how he spreads you'll hit a lot of stuff, snipes to kill off templar, have a lot of HP (135 i think can be healed by medivacs), can drop nukes and do extra damage vs light units (zealots). and it's not that gas heavy.

But the 30 gateway remax of zealots can be really strong, but we make zealots because of that marauder unit that every protoss hates because it's so efficient vs everything.

tldr; i shit my pants when i see ghosts

[AxSGRiM]

protoss is weak thats the main problem

Quick Comments

x5_Namakaye:

hahahaha

[Shieldz]

yes protoss trash;;

[AssyrianKing]

Players these days don't really expand their production as Brood War players did, can this possibly be a reason why games end so early after 1 big fight late game?

[DUCKVILLELOL]

Originally Posted by PiPoGevy

Players these days don't really expand their production as Brood War players did, can this possibly be a reason why games end so early after 1 big fight late game?

Not really. In BW Protoss didn't always get multiple production either (in terms of robo/star) - unless you were going carriers in which case you'd SOMETIMES see up to 3-5 stargates, depending on how late it was. It's an issue of efficiency with units, and the fact that they are such glass cannons. Just in my opinion anyway.

[AssyrianKing]

Glass Cannon? What as in units in SC2 are way more efficient in killing things then in broodwar?

[ROOT`iaguz]

Originally Posted by inFeZa

The race is fine. redesigning it would be stupid. gah.




As for PvT Late game, i've noticed a lot of pros going really ghost heavy, like 16-20 or so ghosts! and you have so much emp no matter how he spreads you'll hit a lot of stuff, snipes to kill off templar, have a lot of HP (135 i think can be healed by medivacs), can drop nukes and do extra damage vs light units (zealots). and it's not that gas heavy.

But the 30 gateway remax of zealots can be really strong, but we make zealots because of that marauder unit that every protoss hates because it's so efficient vs everything.

tldr; i shit my pants when i see ghosts

Yea but it still doesn't help much against the 30 warpgate. Like you'll blanket EMP his army and you'll probably kill it as long as he doesn't have any spare storms but you can't really follow through from there very easily cuz of mass warpgate.

Grumble.

[AssyrianKing]

Originally Posted by iaguz

Yea but it still doesn't help much against the 30 warpgate. Like you'll blanket EMP his army and you'll probably kill it as long as he doesn't have any spare storms but you can't really follow through from there very easily cuz of mass warpgate.

Grumble.

Even qxc said it was broken T.T