[Meatex]

Before I get started this post is not about balance of the beta because we should all know by now that things do get balanced over time and with the game not even being out yet there is bound to be things that need to be hit with the nerf or buff stick

In Wings of Liberty my personal favourite matchup is ZvZ as there are so many things that can happen. So many all ins but also so many vastly different macro styles like muta opening, ling infestor, roach hydra, roach infestor. Personally I dislike infestors and enjoy positional play and I can play that way with no infestors without it being a cross my fingers kind of play
ZvT is close second as you have all sorts of ways to open for both players, both greedy and aggressive
Ling infestor, ling bane muta, roach plays both econ and all in and thats just the zerg options

ZvP on the other hand... that is the reason I kept quitting. Not because I lost all the time but because even when I won I did not enjoy the match. When ever I play ZvP I am forced into playing a certain way, if I deviate then i'm crossing my fingers and hoping that my opponent didn't randomly decide to go the build that auto counters mine. You cannot attack into a protoss typically even with a significant advantage in both army and econ as I have lost games from thinking that meh I have 5 base I can just barrel through his 2 base and reinforce
Any aggressive strats are dice rolls or please don't see this until its too late and you can't FF anymore
Anyway you look at it its simply not a fun matchup as if the zerg wants to have the game rest on his abilities then he has to play one way

In HotS I feel that the new units give more options to T and P and take away options from zerg forcing a certain way of playing. ZvT for example aggressive strats from the zerg seem like a very bad idea in general because of terrans ability to defend with no seige research and of course widow mines giving terran implied map control until zerg has both lair and 50 gas to spare
And from all zergs I have heard from ZvZ is ling bane into muta or you are too far behind
And ZvP is still ZvP but now zerg can't win by surviving till BL infestor - kill toss before they get air deathball or gg
Of course its early on and perhaps some smart pros will figure out vulnerabilities to relying on widow mines for defending or bring back pre muta roach bane timings etc and thats why I want to ask here other's opinions on whether HotS is forcing players to play each matchup a certain way and even if you think thats a problem?
I know for me I like having lots of options which I feel zerg has a great many of in ZvT and ZvZ to cater to various play styles and its why I keep coming back to SC2 - no other game gives the same awesome feeling and I really hope that as HotS is balanced we see more options become available

[ToRSpookToR]

Originally Posted by Meatex

and ZvP is still ZvP but now zerg can't win by surviving till BL infestor - kill toss before they get air deathball or gg

Quick Comments

eCKo`Tazerenix:

suck it zergs

[gwartney]

i would have to agree with you on that but i play prtoss i think since they did add new units to toss and teran i think they should have gave zerg some new units to play with to atleast balance it out for the early game play. becasue it seems like early game there are so many things teran and prtoss can do that zerg players can not defend against at least in the lower leagues so it makes the match ups some times not that fair.

[Dingobloo]

this post is not about balance of the beta

A lot of this stuff in the post is straight up balance, the relative strength of mutas in ZvZ and the difficulty killing protoss air aren't just functions of their unit designs.

Of course its early on and perhaps some smart pros will figure out vulnerabilities to relying on widow mines for defending or bring back pre muta roach bane timings etc

This is almost guaranteed.

Did you know you can use burrow to dodge the widow mine missile wasting it with no units lost? I'm sure someone much better than me is going to make use of that at some point.

On top of that, given the opportunity cost is that they have less hellions I think being able to sacrifice a single ling to deactivate the mine for 40 seconds (a hellion builds in 30 seconds for reference) when you would have lost multiple lings if that unit had been a hellion seems viable, of course you end up with a build up of mines that eventually makes it difficult because the mines aren't being destroyed but it seems like you have a good timing to do damage between when you could start an attack and when the number of mines becomes too difficult.

You cannot attack into a protoss typically even with a significant advantage in both army and econ

I don't think this can even be a topic without talking about the maps, in WOL wide naturals weren't even possible in PvZ, roach ling ran over gateway expands free or required too many canons to be in an okay position economically, likewise 200/200 roach maxes made a similar issue for 3rds where they need to be close and chocked off for the map to be considered balanced, now obviously that's bad, any attacks into chocked areas are likely to be cut up with forcefields and if the bases are close enough immortals can waddle their way over to kill infinity roaches.

So it should be pretty evident PvZ has changed, Mothership Core opens up more possibilities for different kinds of maps by allowing Protoss some defensive options on wide maps, Mutalisks were buffed, a lot in both their speed and regeneration making for a lot of very safe harassment, and Zergs got the Swarm Host, which is capable of pushing into turtled bases without wasting units. So even if the maps didn't change at all (which they likely will because of less constraints) you still have more options to attack through new units and buffed old ones.

Is airtoss probably too strong right now? Yep, it probably is, but the relationships in the matchup are much more circular now, once zerg anti-air is fixed and reliably better than tempest voidray armies in straight engagements (or someone finds a composition that is) the swarm host becomes awesome for forcing engagements and doing chipping damage, but is even more immobile bringing in more opportunities for counter attacks and a swing back towards fast units for protoss rather than 2 slow armies attacking each other.

ZvZ, who knows. I can certainly think of some base setups that might favour spore crawler infestor over just muta ling, I definitely didn't appreciate ZvZ in it's WoL form but I can't guarantee HotS is going to be much better.

Ultimately this is all speculation, it's going to take more maps, more balance changes and more metagame shifts until the actual game takes shape so I feel like thinking about it too much now is a bit too much like worrying all day about when you'll need to piss, so just enjoy it, the beginning is always the most fun part before the absolute best way to play has been solidified down to a science.

Quick Comments

NvRossi:

♥ dingobloo

[Meatex]

I did not know that burrow dodges widow mine missiles... does the mine still have to be on cool down?

I will concede that muta v muta being very dominant in ZvZ is due to the muta buffs but still muta is the far and away best opening you can do currently and infestors are alot easier to dodge, like a LOT. Add to that the high pings I don't think going infestor is reliable answer to muta as muta play gets alot of map control to expand safely
But if you start discussing the balance behind mutas thats a slippery slope but if blizzard deem muta v muta every game acceptable.. ?

And yes hopefully good maps that take into account protoss ability to defend better do come out but who knows if that will fix the play this way or dice roll mechanic that currently exists

And as for TvZ regardless of some things being stronger than they maybe should be currently you can't deny that terran has SIGNIFICANTLY stronger ability to defend with 2 space controlling units and that this discourages aggressive play in ZvT from the zerg at least
Zerg has no tier 1 mobile detection and is the only race that has just one form of mobile detection mean if terran has a factory the zerg has to be wary - not saying thats bad for balance

What I want to discuss is do people see a problem with matchups having no variety like wings of liberty ZvP and whether they see this trend continuing into HotS and carried over to other matchups

[ETL.Branno]

i feel the same about new units taking away options for zerg which im sure is the opposite to what blizzard was trying to do.

im really curious what the reason was for putting the widow mine in the game, it seems like they put it in simply because they felt like they had to give terran something rather than finding a terran weak point and solving it with a new unit.

[b3nje909]

this may seem trivial.
but my concern/query is how is HotS going to work..

will it be a seperate program to WoL, an update, a patch, a linked .exe??

will all our achievements, rewards, character tiles carry over? or will they all have to be earned again?

like I said, trivial, but I am curious.

[Dingobloo]

Originally Posted by b3nje909

this may seem trivial.
but my concern/query is how is HotS going to work..

will it be a seperate program to WoL, an update, a patch, a linked .exe??

will all our achievements, rewards, character tiles carry over? or will they all have to be earned again?

like I said, trivial, but I am curious.

90% sure it will be the same client, there is an option to change expansion levels in the menus, your achievements and portraits should carry over, there are all new portraits and achievements, if you've left your launcher open for any serious amount of time after the newest WoL patch you should have a good amount of what you need to start HotS on launch day it'll all just depend on you game license level.

[b3nje909]

Originally Posted by Dingobloo

90% sure it will be the same client, there is an option to change expansion levels in the menus, your achievements and portraits should carry over, there are all new portraits and achievements, if you've left your launcher open for any serious amount of time after the newest WoL patch you should have a good amount of what you need to start HotS on launch day it'll all just depend on you game license level.

so given i downloaded a seriously massive patch a few days ago, and then another a few days after that (the first patch changed the loading screen to Kerrigan).
is it possible we already have it?

I cant imagine Blizzard allowing millions of Downloads on opening day, as it would severley lower the DL rate, thus angering a many lot of gamers...

Actually.

Do we get it our (AEST) time on March 12, or Americas?

[Matt93]

Originally Posted by b3nje909

so given i downloaded a seriously massive patch a few days ago, and then another a few days after that (the first patch changed the loading screen to Kerrigan).
is it possible we already have it?

I cant imagine Blizzard allowing millions of Downloads on opening day, as it would severley lower the DL rate, thus angering a many lot of gamers...

Actually.

Do we get it our (AEST) time on March 12, or Americas?

We do already have the HotS client, that is why it is called 2.0.5 instead of 1.x.x. So as soon as our account is activated with HotS we can swap between expansions (there's a drop down option) and boom HotS done and done.

[Meatex]

Not entirely accurate there Matt
You did happen to notice the HUGE changes made - that would warrant the version 2.0.5
Typically in 3 numbered version naming convention the first number mean major changes, the second is minor changes and third is for bug fixes and tweaks etc
Unless the HotS content is hidden somewhere it wasn't part of the update. The client and code however would be. So it will likely still require a hefty download come release
And before you blizzard blizzard wouldn't do that think back to diablo 3 release

[Snx.Mufasa]

Originally Posted by Meatex

When ever I play ZvP I am forced into playing a certain way, if I deviate then i'm crossing my fingers and hoping that my opponent didn't randomly decide to go the build that auto counters mine.

what league are you in?

[QEDbourkes]

I loved wol zvp once I found my unorthodox play style of unexpected all ins at different times and a strong macro style with the use of hydras mid game instead of infester, how well it would go in master I don't know but working againced mid diamonds, I play macro about 3/4 of my zvp games