[lomielisk]

I love Zerg. so what should i do ??

[Jaii]

Buy some figurines, go to Blizcon and break your leg dancing like a zergling...

Seriously though it helps to be a little more specific

[Satu]

Originally Posted by lomielisk

I love Zerg. so what should i do ??

I've been waiting for someone to say something like this. This is how I felt when I started with zerg.

You can either be very aggressive or very passive/defensive.

Being aggressive is mostly rushes, as zerg don't get that many good timing windows vs other races, if any at all. You can however, adopt faster upgrades, faster ling/bling speed, faster lair tech, or use builds like 11 overpool to allow you to be slightly aggressive while still having a decent economy.

Being passive/defensive is just sitting back and stopping the opponent from causing you any damage. You need to know when to scout and also know what you're scouting for. If done correctly, you will know when they are attacking as well, and often be able to prepare defenses as they move out towards your base. Eventually, your economy will be much better than your opponents, and you will be able to make an entire swarm of attacking units off all of your hatcheries.

I suggest you switch between either style now and then to see where your strengths are. It also can screw with your opponents, too. If they decide you're a heavy macro player who will never 6pool, they might make a few too many workers. Then they have lings killing all of their stuff. ^^

If you intend to reply to this thread, be a bit more specific about what you intended responses to be, or just generally say more stuff.

[PapaBigBelly]

Sorry Zergtastic, I highly disagree with you when you say Zerg has to be either very Agressive or very Passive.

If a Zerg does a 10 pool or 11 overpool against other races, its not that effective as they can just wall off plus zealots>lings




I can go 14 hatch 14 pool, get my econ up and constantly harrass and attack the opponent. That is Agressive! going for a roach +1 timing push or muta harass after my saturation at the natural is agreessive already. Harrassing is agressive, you may think that Zerg cant really harass but I think Zerg can harass the BEST! DO not just sit in your base!

Harass attacks:
1. Zerling run-by
2. Burried Roaches in the mineral line
3. Baneling drops
4. Buried Infestors launching infested terrans
5. Nydus network
6. Mutalisk Harass
7. Roach drop
8.Overseer Contamination

Doing 2 prompt harass is the best! especially against Protoss as they cannot split their army so well.
As you harass, you contain your opponent in his base and therefore able to expand and drone up. You have: 1. Map Control
2. Scouting Information
3. Confidence Advantage
4. Lots of Vision
5. Freedom to do whatever you want

Once, he is fed up and decides to attack, you swarm him with units and COUNTER ATTACK!

THerefore, i believe every Zerg should be Harassing at all times while getting his economy up , counter the eneymy's pushes and win the game

[Satu]

Originally Posted by ArousalPerMinute

Sorry Zergtastic, I highly disagree with you when you say Zerg has to be either very Agressive or very Passive.

You dont want to be in the middle ground. You will either have not enough economy or not enough army, and either way you'll lose. Also, whos to rule out 10pool or 11overpool? If someone finds it suits their style, they can use it. Dont rule out styles in a thread where some guy wants to learn how to play zerg.

Yes, you can harrass, but thats after the opening 99% of the time. The only harrass you can do early on is zergling runby, and most times they will be walled off earlygame. Being passive for early-midgame is usually what people do, not the entire game (Although that still works). Yet again, it depends on your style of playing.

[PapaBigBelly]

sorry hahah i wasnt intending to rule out 10 pool and 11 overpoll :P

but if you do constantly harass you will actually have the economy to do so after you saturate your natural.

The timing for other races is such that as you saturate your natural, Protoss players are teching to collosi, this is a BIG window where i normally push in with Roach Hydra before their collosi comes out. Ill tech to mutas if the push fails which almost doesnt :P

Against Terran its pretty difficult, so I normally harass with the list i said in my previous post. Ofcourse you dont start harrassing at the start of the game unless you go for 10 pool or 11 pool. Normally a zerg should harass after he has his economy going harassing is important as it makes your opponent timid and limits his map control and vision.

[Jaii]

Playing zerg is to play three different games of SC2. Terran can open whatever they want against all 3 races and be competative. They are the least reactive race in the game. To a lesser extent Protoss can just 4 gate every-single-game and prosper.

Zerg cannot use the same opening against Terran as against Zerg as against Protoss. Nor the same mid game. Nor, mostly, the same end game. ZvZ, ZvT and ZvP are three very exclusive scenarios (incidently which is why I feel Z is at the most disadvantage against good random players - you are forced to scout early to know which game plan to adopt).

You need to develop and follow three seperate game plans. Each plan should have an opening, a middle and an endgame. You cant just say "well im going to 8 pool vs protoss". Sure, 8 pool is a very legitimate strat - one of my favourite openings against protoss is the "fail pool", an 8 pool feint into an expansion - but it needs a next step.

ZvZ - Roaches. Roaches. Roaches. Roaches.

The ZvZ encounter is possibly the most boring of the three matchups because it is dominated completely by a single unit until at least midgame (at which point infestors can be added to great effect, or a spire transition can be attempted without it being suicidal). A 1 base roach opening with a fast lair into a +1+speed+burrow timing attack will kill most speedling / baneling builds, certainly returning positive results at equal skill levels. Endgame transitions dont often matter in this matchup. If you have the resources to transition into spire tech, you could probably have just made 10 more roaches than the other guy and killed him. Remember the evo chamber upgrades in a roach war, and make sure to have an overseer. There is nothing more rediculous than losing a game where you had a huge roach advantage because the other guy was able to just freely burrow back to full HP.

Be leery about FE in ZvZ. Do it if you like to and scout a slow pool or a FE, but dont try and survive a sling-bling bust (giveaway is gas before pool - roach builds should be gas after pool) after an FE. It can be done, but you wont break even overall assuming equal player skill.

Personally I have nothing but distain for the fast pool + crawler builds in ZvZ. Even if you win, what did you learn? What happens when you run into that skill ceiling where everyone scouts, reacts then crushes you? You should know how to 6-10 pool + crawler, but use it sparingly, a shock tactic against a player you know, or as the second game in a Bo3 tournament where you are already 1-down and think the other guy is simply better.

ZvT - FE into reactive play

Your opening move against a competent T is always - ALWAYS - hatch first. Scout early both to harass and guage the intent of the terran. Early gas means you can hatch 15/16 with a 17p. No gas means you should hatch at 14, pool at 13 and prepare for a bunker rush (crawler or two, as few lings as you can survive with, transfer drones to natural early to stop bunkers going up, drone your face off). In the gas case you want to drone your face off, making only scout lings, and find out if the terran is planning heavy rax (sling-bling response) starport (extra queens + spore crawlers into spire tech) or factory (roach warren) tech in his midgame. You want to hold off on making military units as late as possible. Make only what you need to survive until the time comes to kill.

One of the important things to remember in ZvT is that you dont really get to do anything to him early - you cannot pick a build and do it blind - you must react. Until late game, the initiative is ALWAYS with the terran player. Every a 1 base play we have is utterly doomed to failure unless the terran is simply terrible and never scouts / doesnt know that bunkers are all-but-free ($@#%^!!!!)

Mid game if you have a sizeable advantage you can just win by smashing a terran open with a huge ling-bling, or even a late mid game muta-ling-bling. I dont have the APM control for muta-ling-bling though. So I prefer to win my ZvTs in the endgame.

Endgame transition vs terran is where I feel Zerg shines. Your win rate in games where you have at least economic parity at 3 base hive tech should be massively high. Personally I am a huge fan of Broodlords endgame. Not because of their massive DPS, but because they kick the crap out of everything but air units. They turn the tables on Terran - where until endgame the terran can use his tanks as anchors, as territory-control anchors that your army cannot enter without committing to a battle, during endgame Broodlords represent the exact same thing in reverse. The terran MUST engage or be driven back, and must engage on your terms. Broodlords, like tanks, represent initiative. Once tanks are in position, you MUST fight them or lose. So it is with Broods. Think of them as flying siege tanks, and push forward slowly, not committing your army to his but rather using it to protect the broods.

Make sure to build an Ultra cavern once your broods are in battle. If you lose air control to vikings, you can still win alot of games by simply transitioning straight into Ultra-crackling and smashing his weaker ground army (on account of his investment into air) while the vikings watch on in horror.

ZvP - Gah.@.this.matchup

ZvP early game, choosing if to hatch or pool first is like winning the toss in a game of cricket. 9 times in 10 you pool first blind. The other time you think about it, then pool first anyway. In the time it takes a hatch to build a protoss can build a forge, a pylon and a cannon. Once that cannon goes down, the hatch is doomed (attempting to save it is a -EV proposition). Better players than me can get away with 14-16H builds (ive seen it done often in replays) but I dont have the drone control to reliably block that cannon crap. If you need help with your Zerg, chances are you dont either.

ZvP early game you have options. You can choose to take the initiative (fast pool, fast slings, 11pool 7RR), but keep in mind that claiming the initiative comes at some cost, and you must deal damage or fall unrecoverably behind. The "fail pool" (8 pool, build 6 lings, drone up, queen, expand asap, drone up more) is a good example. You have to kill or force around 400 minerals worth of unplanned spending (forge + 2 cannons) or you are way behind.

In general, dont attempt to rely on just lings/crawlers to hold off a 4 gate. You need roaches. Roaches are incredible vs all gateway units. If you force robo, you have survived the 4gate and can progress to mid game.

Mid game, where you can, spire. Mutas are the bane of all protoss's existence. If you can get away with doing muta-ling, you are probably in a high-win% situation. Otherwise, often you are forced to use Roach-Hydra then add corruptors as the protoss adds collossus. The advantage here is with the protoss (this is not to say R-H-C cant beat gate+collossus; just that with equal skilled players, the toss will probably win more often). Mid game I believe you are at a MASSIVE disadvantage vs protoss. You are often locked into R-H, while the protoss can choose to pheonix harass, add VRs, 6 gate dump, collossus ball, high templar, dark templar, even carriers. All if which (except perhaps carrier) will easily arrive well before a Zerg can safely both attain hive tech and the economy to make use of it. Most of my wins vs P are won in the early game or late game. Most losses are in mid game.

Late game, as per ZvT broods can be massively effective, although blink-stalkers are an issue. Add infestors to lock them down if you can, and cracklings to punish the stalkers as hard as you can. If you survive to 3 base hive vs 2 base protoss, you should win more games than you lose. Ignore high templar with your broodlords. Storms simply dont do enough damage to them to be worth moving them out of the aoe field.

A special note vs 4gate, (and most protoss openings in general that dont include a forge). A simple 13g13p speedling ~all-in (cut drones at 15, cut gas at 100, take speed as soon as pool pops, make lings, attack with lings at the protoss front exactly when speed finishes, take an expansion to use up your extra income) will net a massive win rate vs 4 gating protoss when executed correctly. I have used it vs high dia / mid masters and if they are 4-gating and dont abort the built they are all-but certainly dead (90%+) if I dont mess up (forget my queen, for example).

However, as per ZvZ 8pool crawler, when you win a game this way - what have you learnt? Nothing. Sure, youve put another 4-gater herp-a-derp-derp protoss into his grave and crying about how "speedlings are a free win", which everyone except the cryer would agree is a commendable civic duty, but you havnt learnt anything. And when that idiot learns to scout and react, suddenly speedlings become his free win, and you are left with a strat that cant win and still no idea how to stop a 4 gate otherwise. A wise player (wiser than me, I 13g13p ZvP on ladder all the time) would use it sparingly

[Skitz]

Originally Posted by lomielisk

I love Zerg. so what should i do ??

Make drones, lots of drones.

[Benji]

Zerg cannot use the same opening against Terran as against Zerg as against Protoss.

I 15 Hatch, 15 Pool, 16 gas vs all 3 races at the moment unless I see something crazy (Proxies etc), works well for me.

Be leery about FE in ZvZ. Do it if you like to and scout a slow pool or a FE, but dont try and survive a sling-bling bust (giveaway is gas before pool - roach builds should be gas after pool) after an FE. It can be done, but you wont break even overall assuming equal player skill.

Actually Sling-Bling allin is quite easy to stop with a FE on every map except Scrap station, it also guarantees you the win when you hold. The key is roaches and a spine! I think I have a replay of this somewhere, i'll upload if anyones interested.

Your opening move against a competent T is always - ALWAYS - hatch first.

Speedling openings are viable, and actually quite strong vs some T openings. Good terrans can deny your FE easily on 2 player maps.

Endgame transition vs terran is where I feel Zerg shines. Your win rate in games where you have at least economic parity at 3 base hive tech should be massively high. Personally I am a huge fan of Broodlords endgame. Not because of their massive DPS, but because they kick the crap out of everything but air units. They turn the tables on Terran - where until endgame the terran can use his tanks as anchors, as territory-control anchors that your army cannot enter without committing to a battle, during endgame Broodlords represent the exact same thing in reverse. The terran MUST engage or be driven back, and must engage on your terms. Broodlords, like tanks, represent initiative. Once tanks are in position, you MUST fight them or lose. So it is with Broods. Think of them as flying siege tanks, and push forward slowly, not committing your army to his but rather using it to protect the broods.
Make sure to build an Ultra cavern once your broods are in battle. If you lose air control to vikings, you can still win alot of games by simply transitioning straight into Ultra-crackling and smashing his weaker ground army (on account of his investment into air) while the vikings watch on in horror.

Hive tech in ZvT feels weak at the moment. Terrans are getting good with their timings, and broodlords arent that suprising. Ultras are just plain bad units on most maps. Just going on a crazy macro style on 5-6 base is very strong. Ultras and Broods LOOK good, because pros win with them, but they're more a finishing blow when the Zerg is miles ahead. Remaxing with Ling/Bling/Muta after using your first army would be better in most situations imo.

In general, dont attempt to rely on just lings/crawlers to hold off a 4 gate. You need roaches. Roaches are incredible vs all gateway units. If you force robo, you have survived the 4gate and can progress to mid game.

Actually the expansion Nexus is the sign of 4 gate aggression ending. If you've crushed their army, a counterattack can win, if they retreated, take a third, go lair and drone a little.

Mid game, where you can, spire. Mutas are the bane of all protoss's existence. If you can get away with doing muta-ling, you are probably in a high-win% situation. Otherwise, often you are forced to use Roach-Hydra then add corruptors as the protoss adds collossus. The advantage here is with the protoss (this is not to say R-H-C cant beat gate+collossus; just that with equal skilled players, the toss will probably win more often). Mid game I believe you are at a MASSIVE disadvantage vs protoss. You are often locked into R-H, while the protoss can choose to pheonix harass, add VRs, 6 gate dump, collossus ball, high templar, dark templar, even carriers. All if which (except perhaps carrier) will easily arrive well before a Zerg can safely both attain hive tech and the economy to make use of it. Most of my wins vs P are won in the early game or late game. Most losses are in mid game.

Don't agree at all, Ling muta is VERY risky, a simple timing attack from the P will win him the game 95% of the time (The window starts the moment you start going lair until you have ~10 mutas out, thats a massive window). Mutas are good when you're already ahead (from a failed 4 gate or such) but Roach/Hydra/Corruptor is the safest unit mix. Theres some nice timings for zerg here, but people think P is stronger because their Z plays too passive.
Late game is just a continuation of midgame. If you've been denying them bases, resetting their Coll count, you will win, if not, Have fun engaging their deathball.

A special note vs 4gate, (and most protoss openings in general that dont include a forge). A simple 13g13p speedling ~all-in (cut drones at 15, cut gas at 100, take speed as soon as pool pops, make lings, attack with lings at the protoss front exactly when speed finishes, take an expansion to use up your extra income) will net a massive win rate vs 4 gating protoss when executed correctly. I have used it vs high dia / mid masters and if they are 4-gating and dont abort the built they are all-but certainly dead (90%+) if I dont mess up (forget my queen, for example).

Sentries negate this strategy significantly and will lose you the game due to lack of income. It's also allin an comparable to the 8 Pool spine rush in ZvZ you hate so much :P

[Jaii]

Obviously the view from the top of masters is different to what us lowly scrubs see

The 13g13p timing hits the ramp with 8-10 lings before warp gate research finishes. Most protoss in my bracket (high dia / low master) have a zealot and one other unit out, with 4 inactive gates all waiting for warpgate. One forcefield doesnt cut it.

I havnt seen a protoss in my bracket stop the 13g13p without cannons yet (and yet to see that done reactively, rather, blind forge-FE or forge-turtle-tech). Of course, again at high master im sure it is very different (better scouting and better understanding of what the scouting means would lead to chronoing a second sentry and zealot instead of blindly chronoing the warpgate research).

[Satu]

I really think a lot of time could have been saved if the topic was less general. At the moment its something like:

Tell me how to play as zerg, in every matchup with all of the viable stategies and/or tactics included.

I think we can all agree that takes a while to actually do... On teamliquid, people ask for original posts like this to be more specific before actually addressing anything. We could have actually wasted our time here. :P

So, original poster, tell us, what do you find hard about zerg, or what is hard about a certain matchup and why?

What do you think you need help with while playing zerg, and why?

[lomielisk]

Nothing to Comment. only Read my Siganature tell anything. lol